Resources and Industry in SAS

[Kriegsspieler]

Ok, here's a discussion starter to try to gauge where sentiment lies both with SAS players and the development team:

I want to urge that in the next go-round for this really smart game (and I am not talking about a patch) there be a more robust resource/industrial system put into play. At the minimum, such a system ideally would include some elements of the following three components:

1. raw materials -- oil, metal, rubber, etc.
2. industrial output -- the stuff from which tanks and planes and boats are built
3. supplies and fuel for supporting the activities of deployed units

The system as currently implemented in SAS is pretty rudimentary -- deliberately so, I suspect. It looks to me like it was put in the current release as a kind of placeholder for what was intended later on down the road. It forces you to use convoys, which was obviously essential for a naval game, but the rationale for all of the convoying is not fully realized.

Anyway, as I said, this is just a conversation starter.

(DISCLAIMER: I am a long-time beta for Paradox, and among their veterans I am known for always asking for more complex economics in the games than virtually anyone else wants to see in them! See take my enthusiams with a grain of salt . . . . :D )

[PDF]

My grain of salt is that when I want to play Commo Tycoon I don't want to use SAS, and vice-versa ;). Also I hate Paradox economics, who happens to usually be as much complicated than totally irrealistic...:eek:
Please keep an abstract eco system ! The only thing that could be useful would be some "War/peace" eco gauge, and global strategic bombing effect.
So US in '41 could be at 200 * 0.4 because the US economy was not war oriented at that time, then the multiplier will increase up to 1.
OTOH Germany will be at 100 * 1.0 in '43, but the multiplier will go somewhat down later as the industrial base is bombed.

[Yolo911]

It's complicated enough already. I have read the manual and tried to figure it out in the game but I have no clue as to how I am doing with respect to RP's, if I can spend like a drunken sailor or should make cutbacks. I can't see a relationship in the figures. For instance can I order half a dozen subs on the second turn(their is tonage available)but will that break the bank? and cause unforseen RP problems?
On the Build Infrastructure Screen there is a remaining RP field that doesn't change as I Increase the projected size of ports or airfields. But the (Max Rp Spendable =xxxx) increases when I increase the Target Level of Airfields, for example. I don't understand what this field represents. Max RP that I can spend(in a week, month, year I don't know) then it shouldn't increase as I increase Target Level of something. With that label it should remain constant as a cap to spending but it increases??
I am not critisising this game. I know it is me that is having the problem. I bought UV and WiTP the day they were released I gave up on the production and supply the same day I tried to play them. I just had to ignore that part completely. Balancing our current Federal budget would be less complicated.
Can anyone instruct me as to how I know if I am overspending , or how much I can spend and what is the relation ship to the RP figures available compared to the game turn length?

[Scott Chisholm]

It's complicated enough already. I have read the manual and tried to figure it out in the game but I have no clue as to how I am doing with respect to RP's, if I can spend like a drunken sailor or should make cutbacks. I can't see a relationship in the figures. For instance can I order half a dozen subs on the second turn(their is tonage available)but will that break the bank? and cause unforseen RP problems?
On the Build Infrastructure Screen there is a remaining RP field that doesn't change as I Increase the projected size of ports or airfields. But the (Max Rp Spendable =xxxx) increases when I increase the Target Level of Airfields, for example. I don't understand what this field represents. Max RP that I can spend(in a week, month, year I don't know) then it shouldn't increase as I increase Target Level of something. With that label it should remain constant as a cap to spending but it increases??
I am not critisising this game. I know it is me that is having the problem. I bought UV and WiTP the day they were released I gave up on the production and supply the same day I tried to play them. I just had to ignore that part completely. Balancing our current Federal budget would be less complicated.
Can anyone instruct me as to how I know if I am overspending , or how much I can spend and what is the relation ship to the RP figures available compared to the game turn length?

Yolo,

I'm not sitting in front of the game right now, so I hesitate to speak directly to your questions. However, I will offer some thought on the economy of SAS....

Whatever you do, never, ever spend yourself down to zero, or even "very low" RPs. The 2IC expends RPs during the turn to refuel and rearm your ships. If you go crazy on infrastructure, R&D, and construction, you won't have any operating funds left. Merchants do not use fuel, but if your escorts are stuck in port due to lack of fuel, your convoys will get hammered.

Take some serious time and study the Economic Report section of the Turn Briefing Report. It can become a lengthy table of numbers, but it's well worth understanding how the numbers relate to each other.

Some of the construction/infrastructure screens can only be modified once a turn; once you commit funds, that's it until next turn. I'm not sure if that's what you are seeing or not. Again, I'm not at the game right now.... :o

RPs are RPs are RPs.... If the ship builder reflects a "tonnage available", that represent what you can build if you spent all of your available RPs on ship building. Build down to zero tonnage available, and you're broke until the next turn. That means you won't have the RPs to rearm you fleets during the turn....

My recommendation on how to run your economy is to spend in the following progression:

1. R&D
2. Infrastructure
3. Aircraft replacement/troop training
4. New ship construction

AND DON'T FORGET TO LEAVE YOURSELF AN OPERATING BUDGET! Before you spend anything, take stock of what you have and "set aside" some percentage of your RPs to cover bullets and fuel- ie, don't spend below that level.

Infrastructure and R&D upgrades will not happen quickly; it's more important to keep a steady strain on that spending than to dump lots of RPs into it at one time. Also, you won't have the RPs to do everything you want, so choose those bases you want to improve, and only "repair" the others.

I cannot stress enough the importance in running convoys. When you run a convoy of raw materials to a port with industrial capacity, the Economic Report for that port will reflect "Production" for that turn - that's good (it means you're making RPs), and you want to see as much of that as possible. Some ports "make" production without running convoys, but they don't make enough for you to truly advance in the game.

I'll try to reattack on this when I can boot up the game. In the meantime, I'll defer to Tony to address your specific questions.

[Yolo911]

Scott,
Thank you for replying. I think this is going to be an area that I have to "hope for the best" and not worry about it. I just can't find a relationship or data for - RP's Available compared to- RP's I intend to spend per turn.
The other area (and maybe it isn't part of any calculation) is how many troops can a base support. Suppose I over-staff troops at Dutch Harbor. How do I know if putting 10,000 troops there over taxes the sytem? ..whether or not I have enough RP's on hand to support them? And if it is part of the calculations how do I know how many RP's are consumned per turn/month or whatever the time period is that the game uses to figure things so I can plan ahead and stock up on RP's at Dutch Harbor? I have studied the Resource Info screen but I don't know how you figure the RP's needed in advance of troop deployment.
Also - off topic- I am playing the patched v1.01 continuation of a saved game from v1.0, INTRO campaign, and when I select one week turns it always reverts to one month turns. I know this is starting to sound whiney but I would like to get this stuff resolved and you won't hear from me again. Thanks.

[Scott Chisholm]

Scott,
Thank you for replying. I think this is going to be an area that I have to "hope for the best" and not worry about it. I just can't find a relationship or data for - RP's Available compared to- RP's I intend to spend per turn.
The other area (and maybe it isn't part of any calculation) is how many troops can a base support. Suppose I over-staff troops at Dutch Harbor. How do I know if putting 10,000 troops there over taxes the sytem? ..whether or not I have enough RP's on hand to support them? And if it is part of the calculations how do I know how many RP's are consumned per turn/month or whatever the time period is that the game uses to figure things so I can plan ahead and stock up on RP's at Dutch Harbor? I have studied the Resource Info screen but I don't know how you figure the RP's needed in advance of troop deployment.
Also - off topic- I am playing the patched v1.01 continuation of a saved game from v1.0, INTRO campaign, and when I select one week turns it always reverts to one month turns. I know this is starting to sound whiney but I would like to get this stuff resolved and you won't hear from me again. Thanks.

Yolo,

You're not whining...not by a long shot. You should have heard me during Beta testing. Now, THAT was whining! :D

I know the answer to your "how much do I have" question is answered in the game, but I really can't "show" you until I get mine booted up....

As for the troop questions, those are engine questions that I will defer to Tony.

[Yolo911]

Thank you Scott for taking time to reply. I'll just wait until Tony has a free moment to answer the questions. I imagine this is a very busy time for all of you.

[tony_glazebrook]

Ok, here's a discussion starter to try to gauge where sentiment lies both with SAS players and the development team:

I want to urge that in the next go-round for this really smart game (and I am not talking about a patch) there be a more robust resource/industrial system put into play. At the minimum, such a system ideally would include some elements of the following three components:

1. raw materials -- oil, metal, rubber, etc.
2. industrial output -- the stuff from which tanks and planes and boats are built
3. supplies and fuel for supporting the activities of deployed units

The system as currently implemented in SAS is pretty rudimentary -- deliberately so, I suspect. It looks to me like it was put in the current release as a kind of placeholder for what was intended later on down the road. It forces you to use convoys, which was obviously essential for a naval game, but the rationale for all of the convoying is not fully realized.

Anyway, as I said, this is just a conversation starter.

(DISCLAIMER: I am a long-time beta for Paradox, and among their veterans I am known for always asking for more complex economics in the games than virtually anyone else wants to see in them! See take my enthusiams with a grain of salt . . . . :D )

Kriegspieler - the game as it stands now allows for production of RPs by your industry using materials sourced either by convoy or locally or both. The amount of materials for export and the amount locally available are all configurables when campaigns are created. The Atlantic scenario for instance is designed to make the UK pretty reliant on convoys, whilst leaving the German economy not reliant at all - everything it needs is available 'locally' (ie, in SAS terms, not having to be shipped)

The game also already has more or less what you are asking for. The only difference is that the unit of output from production - an RP - converts automatically to war material of different kinds (steel, fuel, rubber, ammo, food for troops, whatever) at the point where this is needed. This is a deliberate decision and I would not introduce anything more complicated unless there was very strong call for it. My feeling is that most players do not want to micro manage an economy. The system in SAS allows war capacity to be based on economic capacity, allows for convoys and supply runs, models usage of critical resources like fuel, and requires that troops be supplied. The main elements of an economy as it affected naval ops are there I think. Neverthless, I'd be very interested to see views from others. And thanks for your suggestion - we MAY make the economic model more sophisticated; as always, we will do what we think will make the game better for most. We'll keep an eye out on this.

Thanks Kriegspieller for the thoughtful suggestion

[Kriegsspieler]

Kriegspieler - the game as it stands now allows for production of RPs by your industry using materials sourced either by convoy or locally or both. The amount of materials for export and the amount locally available are all configurables when campaigns are created. The Atlantic scenario for instance is designed to make the UK pretty reliant on convoys, whilst leaving the German economy not reliant at all - everything it needs is available 'locally' (ie, in SAS terms, not having to be shipped)

The game also already has more or less what you are asking for. The only difference is that the unit of output from production - an RP - converts automatically to war material of different kinds (steel, fuel, rubber, ammo, food for troops, whatever) at the point where this is needed. This is a deliberate decision and I would not introduce anything more complicated unless there was very strong call for it. My feeling is that most players do not want to micro manage an economy. The system in SAS allows war capacity to be based on economic capacity, allows for convoys and supply runs, models usage of critical resources like fuel, and requires that troops be supplied. The main elements of an economy as it affected naval ops are there I think. Neverthless, I'd be very interested to see views from others. And thanks for your suggestion - we MAY make the economic model more sophisticated; as always, we will do what we think will make the game better for most. We'll keep an eye out on this.

Thanks Kriegspieller for the thoughtful suggestion
Tony, as the first couple of responses to this thread show, you are not alone in not wanting to have to micromanage an economy! :D But that's not really what I was asking for.
I think the problem is that as things stand now the various uses of RP's in the game are not very transparent. Not to me, anyway. Take the case of Gibraltar in the Atlantic scenario. The scenario notes say that, for the purposes of the war against Germany, Gibraltar is both the source of raw materials from India AND a drain on British production to support the war in the Mediterranean. The problem is, since RP's serve to represent both effects, don't they partially cancel each other out? Even if the scenario design introduces new demands on RP's in Gibraltar at particular moments (I must admit I haven't played it far enough forward yet on both sides to see this), doesn't it nevertheless underrepresent the actual convoy burden on the UK, because in reality they had to run a ful set of convoys in both directions to carry raw materials from Gibraltar to Great Britain and supplies back to the Med? But as far as the game is concerned, the UK's only burden is to maintain an adequte RP balance at Gibraltar.

This brings up a second problem: how does one know at any given moment what the actual burdens ARE at any given port? I suppose your answer would be to look at the economic balance sheets. But they fail to explain whether the RP's there are raw materials waiting to be tranported to the home industrial centers, or RP's generated by the local industries. As far as I can tell, most ports in the game appear to have an industrial level of at least "1". So are they generating RP's, using them, or both? Take Halifax and New York as examples. Hypothetically, if I scrapped a lot of the UK's navy and focused instead on building up the industrial level of those two ports massively to the level of 10, would that result in a far greater overall availability of RP's to the UK, or would that instead soak up all of the "raw materials" that were origially being convoyed to Londonderry and Liverpool?

As far as I can tell, there are two possible answers to the logic of convoying in this game: either the game engine actually distinguishes between different kinds of RP's as "resource" RP's or "industrial RP's or "supply" RP's, in which case I think it would greatly improve the intelligibility of the logistical and industrial systems to make those distinctions transparent to the player. The second possibility is that the game functions as a closed system into which RP's are "injected" every turn by the scenario design at various locations, in which case what convoys have to do is to match the availability of RP's to the places that most need to use them. But if this is the case, then I still fail to see what the industries in those ports are actually doing: do they generate additional RP's as a percentage of the RP's that remained in the port at the end of the preceding turn?

[tony_glazebrook]

Tony, as the first couple of responses to this thread show, you are not alone in not wanting to have to micromanage an economy! :D But that's not really what I was asking for.
I think the problem is that as things stand now the various uses of RP's in the game are not very transparent. Not to me, anyway. Take the case of Gibraltar in the Atlantic scenario. The scenario notes say that, for the purposes of the war against Germany, Gibraltar is both the source of raw materials from India AND a drain on British production to support the war in the Mediterranean. The problem is, since RP's serve to represent both effects, don't they partially cancel each other out? Even if the scenario design introduces new demands on RP's in Gibraltar at particular moments (I must admit I haven't played it far enough forward yet on both sides to see this), doesn't it nevertheless underrepresent the actual convoy burden on the UK, because in reality they had to run a ful set of convoys in both directions to carry raw materials from Gibraltar to Great Britain and supplies back to the Med? But as far as the game is concerned, the UK's only burden is to maintain an adequte RP balance at Gibraltar.

Not quite so. The Atlantic scenario is a bit special in that I introduced the requirement for the UK to meet montly supply levels (by transporting RPs) to Givraltar. These get consumed in a virtual way; ie, it is assumed that they are on-forwarded to places in the Med, which is mot otherwise represented. But Gibraltar also has needs of its own - to supply the troops stationed there and to refuel and rearm ships. It has a small amout of indutsry (level 1), a small amount of doemstic materials (1) meaning it can produce a small number of RPs itself (which are not counted against the monthly suppy target to Givraltar that Britain must meet) - to help keep things going. AND it has some export materials as well - making it a useful source of materials for the UK ports. These raw materials are there to represent convoys that are assumed to be operating in the Med, ie Gibraltar vis on a line of convoys coming up through the Red Sea. SO, in terms of Gibraltar SAS models the need for:
a. the need for supply runs to Gibraltar from anywhere that has surplus RPs
b. an independant small local RP production
c. the value of running of convoys from Gibraltar to the UK

You will see when you play the Atlantic scenario, that this convoy traffic in both dierctions will be occuring. Thiese are just some of the convoys that the AI will try to set up, based on available shipping, available escorts, where supply need is greatest, where the processing value of the materials is greatest etc - many factors. At any one time, there are likely to be half a dozen or more convoys sailking between ports on the US East Coast and the UK, South ASmerica and the UK, Gibraltar and the UK, US Eastt Coast and Gibraltar....




This brings up a second problem: how does one know at any given moment what the actual burdens ARE at any given port? I suppose your answer would be to look at the economic balance sheets. But they fail to explain whether the RP's there are raw materials waiting to be tranported to the home industrial centers, or RP's generated by the local industries.

Just let me correct a slight misunderstanding: RPs are not the same as raw materials. RPs are your finished war material (of various kinds). They must be produced by indutsry, using raw materials. Raw materials - both for export and to be used locally - are to be found at ports. Unlike RPs, their volume and potential value is measured in a virtual way - using th two indices: EMI (for exportable materials) and DMI (for materials not for export). Thes indices are measures of the volume and value of these materials. But remember that these indices show potential value: the materials must be fed into indutsry before they can become tangible RPs.

You can see levels for all of these in your port popups (and the Briefing Report appendix): at aech port you can see:
- the current number of RPs
- the current indutsry level
- the EMI and DMI





As far as I can tell, most ports in the game appear to have an industrial level of at least "1". So are they generating RP's, using them, or both?

The above answer hopefully explains this. Ports with nindutsry can be generating and using RPs. Some will be producing more than they need and then become good sources for convoys to pick up the suprlus RPs and transport them where they are needed. Some will be net takers - they will be candidates for convoys to send materials (or RPs) to.

Ports without any indutsry (ie level 0) can not produce any RPs even if they have high levels of DMI or EMI.

The industry level, DMI and EMI at each port is set when the campaign is created. The industry level (but not the EMI or DMI) can change during a game - be reduced by attack and increased by infrastructure spending.



Take Halifax and New York as examples. Hypothetically, if I scrapped a lot of the UK's navy and focused instead on building up the industrial level of those two ports massively to the level of 10, would that result in a far greater overall availability of RP's to the UK, or would that instead soak up all of the "raw materials" that were origially being convoyed to Londonderry and Liverpool?


It takes progrtessivley more RPs to build industry as the level rises, so it is very costly to do massive changes in indutsry levels. That aside, as explained above, indutsry need materials to work with. If the port concerned had a high DMI, or you could send large amounts of export materials to it, yes, this could be a good strategy. It certainly IS one strategy - to reduce your dependance on convoys, leaving forces freer to conduct ofensive rather than defensive missions. BUt as I said building up industry itself is expensive. Buiolding up indutsry can also pay dividends relatively easily if you want to improve the self sufficiency of outlying ports that have some DMI. Eg improiving from indutsry level 0 to 1 or 2 is relatively quick and cheap




As far as I can tell, there are two possible answers to the logic of convoying in this game: either the game engine actually distinguishes between different kinds of RP's as "resource" RP's or "industrial RP's or "supply" RP's, in which case I think it would greatly improve the intelligibility of the logistical and industrial systems to make those distinctions transparent to the player. The second possibility is that the game functions as a closed system into which RP's are "injected" every turn by the scenario design at various locations, in which case what convoys have to do is to match the availability of RP's to the places that most need to use them. But if this is the case, then I still fail to see what the industries in those ports are actually doing: do they generate additional RP's as a percentage of the RP's that remained in the port at the end of the preceding turn?

I think IO have covbvered the answer to this above. Poerts stat with RPs levels - these are set during the campaign creation, Therafter, the only way to increase your RPs - anywhere - is to produce them in your indutsries that have access to materials.

[Kriegsspieler]

Just let me correct a slight misunderstanding: RPs are not the same as raw materials. RPs are your finished war material (of various kinds). They must be produced by indutsry, using raw materials. Raw materials - both for export and to be used locally - are to be found at ports. Unlike RPs, their volume and potential value is measured in a virtual way - using th two indices: EMI (for exportable materials) and DMI (for materials not for export). Thes indices are measures of the volume and value of these materials. But remember that these indices show potential value: the materials must be fed into indutsry before they can become tangible RPs.

You can see levels for all of these in your port popups (and the Briefing Report appendix): at aech port you can see:
- the current number of RPs
- the current indutsry level
Thanks, Tony. THIS was the key that I was failing to grasp! It would help if those values were also made part of the economic briefing in the future as well.

[Kriegsspieler]

Sorry, just some points of clarification: when the "DMI" of a given post equals 1 and the port's level of industry is one, should I draw the obvious inference that resource supply and industrial capacity are in rough balance? So taking the case of Norfolk, it begins the scenario with an industry level of 1 and a DMI of 1 and an EMI of 2. But Norfolk is set at the beginning to receive an industry investment to bring it up to a level of 2. When it reaches that level, does it then start consuming one of the EMI's, raising its DMI to 2 and reducing its EMI to 1?

And one further question: can you please explain the logic of the distinction between export industry and domestic industry? I have read the differences between them as described in the scenario creation part of the manual, but that doesn't explain why you believed the games requires such a distinction. I would interested to know what effect you were trying to produce.

EDIT: And two more quetions. (They just keep coming!) If I fail to pick up the entire value of the EMI at a port in a given turn, does it accumulate from one turn to another? And for purposes of creating my own convoys, how much tonnage of shiping is 1 EMI supposed to equal? A little guide to conversions of these and RP's with respect to convoying would be useful.

[tony_glazebrook]

Sorry, just some points of clarification: when the "DMI" of a given post equals 1 and the port's level of industry is one, should I draw the obvious inference that resource supply and industrial capacity are in rough balance? So taking the case of Norfolk, it begins the scenario with an industry level of 1 and a DMI of 1 and an EMI of 2. But Norfolk is set at the beginning to receive an industry investment to bring it up to a level of 2. When it reaches that level, does it then start consuming one of the EMI's, raising its DMI to 2 and reducing its EMI to 1?

EMI and DMI are indices - a measure of the amount and value of materials available there. These indices are set in campaign creation and never go up or down.

Let me take an example: Say port X has:
- an export industry level of 2
- a domestic industry level of 3
- an EMI of 4 and a DMI of 5

Lets also say that 30000 tons of export materials were also convoyed in to the port from somewhere else.

The following calculations assume a monthly strategic turn.

At the end of a turn, production takes place, converting materials into RPs there.

The domestic industry goes to work on the domestic materials available locally. So the RPs produced = the domestic industry level (3) * the DMI (5) * K1, where K1 is a constant conversion factor in the game (with a value of 10), resulting in a value of 150

The export industry works with the export materials. There are 2 sources now:
- there are materials available for export but which can also be used by the ports export industries. So we have further production. The RPs produced = the export industry level (2) * the EMI (4) * K1, resulting in a value of 80.

Finally, the export indutsry can also work with the raw materials convoyed in.
Here, the computer looks at the average EMI value of the cargo carried by the fleet. (The convoy may have passed through several ports en route, loading up with export materials of differing values). Say the average value is 3.5. OK, then the RPs produced = the export industry level (2) * the average EMI (3.5) * the tonnage unloaded (30000) * K2, where K2 is the constant factor in the game for converting tonnes of raw materials to RPs. (K2 = 0.0005).

So the result of this calculation = 2 * 3.5 * 30000 * .0005 = 105 RPs

So, at the end of the turn, the port will have produced 150 + 80 + 105 = 335 RPs.

These RPs go into the RP storages there and can be used next turn on:
- rearming, refuelling, repairing and constructing ships (depending on the port's docks capabilities)
- supplying troops stationed there

If the port is your Home Port, they can also be used toward aircraft production and raising more troops and spending on infrastructure (across all your ports).





And one further question: can you please explain the logic of the distinction between export industry and domestic industry? I have read the differences between them as described in the scenario creation part of the manual, but that doesn't explain why you believed the games requires such a distinction. I would interested to know what effect you were trying to produce.

See above

PS - On reading this I must apologise first for the rather garbled nature of this but also for the fact that the existing help files (and manual) do not really explain this. It must have been something I meant to include and then didn't! I will set up a thread on the economy, and I have noted down for action to include full help info on the economy into the game, and also to update the manual.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Wait... so a port has two different industry levels... one fed by DMI and one fed by EMI?

Can a port with EMI that also has export industry choose to export its raw materials, or are they automatically consumed by the export industry?

And does industry have any limits on how much imported raw material it can consume each month?

[tony_glazebrook]

Wait... so a port has two different industry levels... one fed by DMI and one fed by EMI?

Can a port with EMI that also has export industry choose to export its raw materials, or are they automatically consumed by the export industry?
[/QUOTE
Yes, any port with an EMI value > 0 can be a source of raw materials for any convoy wanting to load up and take them to a place with an export industry > 0

The volume of materials so loaded up does not affect the volume available to use in the port's own export indutsry. EMI is an index. It measures both volume and value. EMI levels don't get depleted, unlike RPs which are concrete and get used up.

It was an option in the early days of SAS to model and track volumes of materials, not just the finished RPs. I decided that the easier way to do this was to use the idea of the index. Low indices simply produce less, ton for ton, when used in indutsry of a certain capacity. So, for example, in the Pacific scenarios, the Durtch east Indies and malaya are pretty rich sources of export materials, so have high EMI values.


[QUOTE]

And does industry have any limits on how much imported raw material it can consume each month?

No. Agian, the indutsry level is a kind of surrogate for several real-life variables put together. Eg A low indutsry level can be thiought of either as indutsry with a lowish throughput capacity, or indutsry with a limited ability to process, eg able to process only certain types of stuff. A high indutsry level means a sophisticated industrial base that can process large volumes and extract very great value also.

[Kriegsspieler]

Now we're making some progress, my man! Thanks for taking the time to explain this.
So let me make sure I understand where things stand. To go back to my hypothetical case of ramping up Halifax or New York, which I mentioned above, pushing their DOMESTIC industrial levels up to ten would permit them to process their DMI materials more effectively, but would have no effect on their EMI resources.

Also, your answer to Chaos suggests what looks to me like a possible exploit: If I invest in export industry both in the source of EMI and in my home port, I'll get double duty out of it, as long as I have convoys to carry it back and forth, because there's no actual "stockpile" being depleted. Thererfore the potential appears to exist to create a multiplier that could lead to some pretty outlandish results, if the player finds the right formula for investment. Or . . . ?

[PDF]

It's much clearer for me now ... Some deductions then :
- Domestic RP changes when you increase the Ind level of a port, DMI doesn't change, so it's always better to improve industry in ports with the highest DMI
- OTOH, "export" RP can be boosted by importing materials via convoys, here again it's better to send the convoys to the higher EMI ports then

Is that correct ?

[Scott Chisholm]

It's much clearer for me now ... Some deductions then :
- Domestic RP changes when you increase the Ind level of a port, DMI doesn't change, so it's always better to improve industry in ports with the highest DMI
- OTOH, "export" RP can be boosted by importing materials via convoys, here again it's better to send the convoys to the higher EMI ports then

Is that correct ?

I think you've got it!

The idea is to set up "food chains" where you move raw materials from a source port to an industrialized port where the raw materials are converted to RPs. The RPs are then loaded as "supplies" and taken someplace else.

In the Economic Briefing of the Turn Briefing Report you see can see this. (Tony, slap me if I get this wrong - I'm not in front of the game right now....)

"Production" is domestic production - the port using locally available resources to generate RPs.

"Trade" is a port's production using raw materials shipped in from elsewhere.

"Supplies in/out" are RPs shipped in/out from/to elsewhere.

The other things listed (not at the game right now!), such as refueling, rearming, and bombardments are RPs expended/lost during the turn.

The game does not break down raw materials and supplies into specifics such as oil, rubber, steel, tanks, guns, fuel, etc. That level of micromanagement was believed to detract from the "You're the overall naval commander" focus of the game. The fact you need to move RPs around the map is more important than ensuring 425,381 barrels of aviation fuel is shipped from New York to Liverpool. ;)

In the end, you want to ship raw materials to your highly industrialized ports - that's where you "make your money".

It takes a lot of RPs to increase a port's industrial capacity to "high" levels. Be careful investing in a lot of industry in your forward bases; chances are they'll get hammered and you'll lose your investment. For instance, my experience with the Med Meltdown scenario we playtested was that Malta got pounded to dust pretty quickly, and ended up with an industry rating of 0. In that instance, pouring RPs into Malta's industry was like burning money. However, it's really important to run supplies to Malta so you can stockpile RPs there to refuel/rearm your ships that call there. I had an out-of-fuel battleship stuck there for several months until I could successfully run a convoy and transport RPs to refuel her.

I hope that helps!

[HBuhring]

Ok, I still don't have the game -- so I might get a bit confused.

Tony's replies have illustrated quite well the mechanism through which DMI & EMI are transformed in RP's by the industries. What I have not clear is how the game converts EMI in shipping that goes into production by the export industry.

If I get it right, I assume it should work like this:
1. In a port with an EMI index > 0 you load a convoy by expending RP's (1 RP = 1000 t if I remember well) -- Your only limit is the RP value of that port at that moment.
2. This process can be iterated by the same convoy in different ports [EDIT: up to the max cargo capacity of the ships of the convoy]. So you end up with a convoy that has loaded cargo from more than one port with different EMI values. The value of your cargo, overall, is an average of those EMI values. Question: is it a weighted average?
3. You unload your cargo at a port with an Export industry index > 0. At the end of turn your cargo will be converted in RP's according to the formula. Question: can you unload in different ports, and in this case how is the average value of your supplies calculated?

Is this correct?

Another question: if the destination port has an EMI value > 0 and the origin port an Export Industry Index > 0 my convoy could become a valuable shuttle service, multiplying the production capacity of both ports?

Thanks a lot for your patience.

HB