Midway.... The Movie

[old_pop2000]

I know many of you have seen the movie, Midway with Charleton Heston. In a few of the scenes showing the aircraft flying, the rear gunner in the SBD turns to face the pilot and has a hand held mike. Now, why is that wrong?

I am throwing this out to anyone. Try to search the internet and see a picture of the rear gunner position on an SBD. In fact, search for the USS Midway site, I believe they have pictures but other sites do also. You maybe amazed to find out something about the SBD.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1345300471067834299ysDnke

Hope this helps.

[paladin5]

Either A: The SDB didn't have an intercom between the pilot and gunner, or B: It was attached to his oxygen mask. BTW i am assuming that they had an oxygen system since they could fly above 10k feet.

[old_pop2000]

Either A: The SDB didn't have an intercom between the pilot and gunner, or B: It was attached to his oxygen mask. BTW i am assuming that they had an oxygen system since they could fly above 10k feet.

A. They had an intercom system.

B. Yes, it was equipped with an oxygen system, at least the -5, -6 was. It was a diluter or a rebreather system.

:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

I know many of you have seen the movie, Midway with Charleton Heston. In a few of the scenes showing the aircraft flying, the rear gunner in the SBD turns to face the pilot and has a hand held mike. Now, why is that wrong?

I am throwing this out to anyone. Try to search the internet and see a picture of the rear gunner position on an SBD. In fact, search for the USS Midway site, I believe they have pictures but other sites do also. You maybe amazed to find out something about the SBD.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1345300471067834299ysDnke

Hope this helps.

Probably because the gunner seat was designed to face rearwards.

[old_pop2000]

Probably because the gunner seat was designed to face rearwards.

This is not a trick question. Here is the answer to the question.

1. The SBD gunner sat in a manually operated turret, that was mounted in the rear cockpit. He had an armoured shoulder plate on the left and right side that could be moved into place to protect him. He had a two piece chest plate that was strapped together to protect his chest. On the right foot, he had a foot plate to pop open the storage doors for the guns. The gunner would reach forward and pull the guns out by the handles. The twin gun version used a type 14 reflector gunsight with two handles to hold the guns. On the right handle was a button, to activate the guncamera, on the left handle was mounted the intercom button. This activated the intercom which was connected to his throat mike. There would be no way, once he was mounted in that gun turret, with the seat straps, armoured shields and throat mike for him to reach out into the air stream to use a hand held mike which was totally unnecessary. If the guns were in the rear housing, he just had to use the hot mike setup, he talks, and the pilot can hear him.

Most people do not realize that the gunner sat in a gun turret. It could be removed, was adjustable for height and could be swung around to face forward once the guns were stowed. The turret could locked into place. It was not electrically operated, but the gunsight was. The guns also had a gun shield to protect the gunner from incoming rounds.

Thanks

[Mike Malanaphy]

This is not a trick question. Here is the answer to the question.

1. The SBD gunner sat in a manually operated turret, that was mounted in the rear cockpit. He had an armoured shoulder plate on the left and right side that could be moved into place to protect him. He had a two piece chest plate that was strapped together to protect his chest. On the right foot, he had a foot plate to pop open the storage doors for the guns. The gunner would reach forward and pull the guns out by the handles. The twin gun version used a type 14 reflector gunsight with two handles to hold the guns. On the right handle was a button, to activate the guncamera, on the left handle was mounted the intercom button. This activated the intercom which was connected to his throat mike. There would be no way, once he was mounted in that gun turret, with the seat straps, armoured shields and throat mike for him to reach out into the air stream to use a hand held mike which was totally unnecessary. If the guns were in the rear housing, he just had to use the hot mike setup, he talks, and the pilot can hear him.

Most people do not realize that the gunner sat in a gun turret. It could be removed, was adjustable for height and could be swung around to face forward once the guns were stowed. The turret could locked into place. It was not electrically operated, but the gunsight was. The guns also had a gun shield to protect the gunner from incoming rounds.

Thanks

Hi Dennis,

That's a pretty sophisticated piece of engineering and hopefully prevented a lot of gunner casualties.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

That's a pretty sophisticated piece of engineering and hopefully prevented a lot of gunner casualties.

It was but it did not protect against 20mm shells from a Zero or 12.7 mm. The shielding was more or less proof against rifle caliber bullets. The gunner had to foot rests, and the right one, had a foot pedal to control the tilt of the turret. The storage compartment sliding door release for the guns was not on the floor, my mistake, it was a lever.

Next time I go to the Midway Museum, I am going to get a closer look at their SBD.

[Warship NWS]

Side notes about the SBD.. based on some research I did recently the SBD was the only tactical single engined attack aircraft with known rear gunner aces (5+ kills) - to the best of any sources I could find. This could be factored by a few reasons - a) twin .30 caliber guns - double the rear-gunner firepower of most, or possibly any, other tactical aircraft, b) the survivability and maneuverability of the SBD design, and c) most IJN fighters it engaged being were unarmored and IJN pilots mostly used non-team tactics vs SBD formations.

In any case.. the SBD IMHO was by far the best dive bomber of the war - no other dive bomber could claim complete effectiveness from the start to the end of the war vs both naval and land targets - and almost single handedly destroyed the bulk of the naval tactical air wings of the IJN on its own. If there was a weapon that I think the IJN hated more then any other, with the possible exception of the Gato class, I think the SBD would have to be it. Sinking CVs is far more devastating then killing planes and the IJN had almost no worthy defense against the SBD. Once the SBD formations were in a dive.. it was usually time to abandon ship for the enemy. No IJN ship afloat was safe from its 500-1000lb bomb load. Until the advent of the SB2C the SBD also carried the highest payload in terms of explosive filler of any dive bomber at the start of the war .. ~500lbs of explosive filler for the 1000lb SAP bomb. (The Stuka loaded 1000lb AP bomb only carried a fraction of its weight in filler - thus very possibly saving a few RN CVs from total destruction)

If there is a classic dive bomber of the war .. the SBD ranks #1 in my book and could possibly have a claim to fame of being our ultimate reply to Pearl Harbor.

Thanks.

[keschofield]

Side notes about the SBD.. based on some research I did recently the SBD was the only tactical single engined attack aircraft with known rear gunner aces (5+ kills) - to the best of any sources I could find. This could be factored by a few reasons - a) twin .30 caliber guns - double the rear-gunner firepower of most, or possibly any, other tactical aircraft, b) the survivability and maneuverability of the SBD design, and c) most IJN fighters it engaged being were unarmored and IJN pilots mostly used non-team tactics vs SBD formations.

In any case.. the SBD IMHO was by far the best dive bomber of the war - no other dive bomber could claim complete effectiveness from the start to the end of the war vs both naval and land targets - and almost single handedly destroyed the bulk of the naval tactical air wings of the IJN on its own. If there was a weapon that I think the IJN hated more then any other, with the possible exception of the Gato class, I think the SBD would have to be it. Sinking CVs is far more devastating then killing planes and the IJN had almost no worthy defense against the SBD. Once the SBD formations were in a dive.. it was usually time to abandon ship for the enemy. No IJN ship afloat was safe from its 500-1000lb bomb load. Until the advent of the SB2C the SBD also carried the highest payload in terms of explosive filler of any dive bomber at the start of the war .. ~500lbs of explosive filler for the 1000lb SAP bomb. (The Stuka 1000lb AP only carried a fraction of its weight in filler - thus very possibly saving a few RN CVs from total destruction)

If there is a classic dive bomber of the war .. the SBD ranks #1 in my book.

Thanks.


Not to mention the fact that, IIRC, SBD's once served in a pinch as CAP for a carrier.

[Warship NWS]

Not to mention the fact that, IIRC, SBD's once served in a pinch as CAP for a carrier.

Coral Sea to be exact.

[Kyle Holgate]

It was but it did not protect against 20mm shells from a Zero or 12.7 mm. The shielding was more or less proof against rifle caliber bullets. The gunner had to foot rests, and the right one, had a foot pedal to control the tilt of the turret. The storage compartment sliding door release for the guns was not on the floor, my mistake, it was a lever.

Next time I go to the Midway Museum, I am going to get a closer look at their SBD.

The Tillamook air museum (look on the map, 70 miles west of Portland) has a full set - Wildcat, SBD and Avenger - as well as others. My favorite is the Hayabusa (Oscar) fighter. Dennis, if you ever get an Oregon Coast vacation - must stop there.

I agree with Chris - SBD has to be top of the list for best dive bomber. The Helldiver was perhaps as good but it wasn't very well liked and I think the war could have easily been won without it (and pilots would have been happier).

[old_pop2000]

The Tillamook air museum (look on the map, 70 miles west of Portland) has a full set - Wildcat, SBD and Avenger - as well as others. My favorite is the Hayabusa (Oscar) fighter. Dennis, if you ever get an Oregon Coast vacation - must stop there.

I agree with Chris - SBD has to be top of the list for best dive bomber. The Helldiver was perhaps as good but it wasn't very well liked and I think the war could have easily been won without it (and pilots would have been happier).

I've been to Tillamook, but did not have time to get to the air museum. Next trip to Portland, and we are going to go to Tillamook for the cheese factory and air museum. We might head along the coast to see more of it, it was beautiful.

As for the SB2C, it was called "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class" for a reason. It could carry a heavier bombload and was faster, but it was a beast. Most pilots would have preferred the SBD -6 model.

[Warship NWS]

A small snippet from a SBD rear gunner by the name of Dave Cawley that gives an idea of how poor the communications were between Zeke pilots,

"These five guys (Zeros) sat there is a loose gaggle when all of the sudden the lead pilot waggled his wings and started his attack run."

[old_pop2000]

The Navy started WWII with the -3, but the Marines had the -2. The -2 did not have the twin guns or reflector sights. It used a single, flexible mount with a ring and bead. Over time, as with most aircraft, the SBD evolved. However, the rear gunner was never well protected, and most aircrews agreed that if the SBD gunner was killed, the plane was done. Most crews agreed also that if the gunner was still firing, the Japanese would generally leave the SBD's alone especially when in a tight formation. They were most vulnerable after the dive and heading for the rendevous point.

[Mike Malanaphy]

I've been to Tillamook, but did not have time to get to the air museum. Next trip to Portland, and we are going to go to Tillamook for the cheese factory and air museum. We might head along the coast to see more of it, it was beautiful.

As for the SB2C, it was called "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class" for a reason. It could carry a heavier bombload and was faster, but it was a beast. Most pilots would have preferred the SBD -6 model.

Hi Dennis,

I haven't been there either, but when you do get up here, don't forget the Evergreen Air Museum just south of Portland in McMinneville. Resting place of the "Spruce Goose" among others.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

I haven't been there either, but when you do get up here, don't forget the Evergreen Air Museum just south of Portland in McMinneville. Resting place of the "Spruce Goose" among others.

Yes, that is another site to visit. The first time we went to Portland, we only had four days, one day at Tillamook and one day at Silverton for the Iris Gardens. We have decided that we might take a whole week, fly up and rent a car, then drive to Tillamook, Mt. St. Helens and some other spots. We might visit Pendleton again, spots we saw on the cruise up the Columbia. But that is for another trip.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The Navy started WWII with the -3, but the Marines had the -2. The -2 did not have the twin guns or reflector sights. It used a single, flexible mount with a ring and bead. Over time, as with most aircraft, the SBD evolved. However, the rear gunner was never well protected, and most aircrews agreed that if the SBD gunner was killed, the plane was done. Most crews agreed also that if the gunner was still firing, the Japanese would generally leave the SBD's alone especially when in a tight formation. They were most vulnerable after the dive and heading for the rendevous point.

Dennis:

A friend of mine's dad was a fighter pilot that was converted into SDB pilot prior to Midway. He later fought over Guadalcanal and was jumped by two Zeroes. He dove into clouds and eluded them. While trying to make his way back to the base, he spotted one of the Zeroes below him and just dove on it. One short burst from his nose mounted .50cals set it on fire and spiraling into the ocean. He said it burned all the way down. That was one of 7 confirmed kills that he got (the others were in a Hellcat when he was allowed to return to fighter duty in 1943.)

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

A friend of mine's dad was a fighter pilot that was converted into SDB pilot prior to Midway. He later fought over Guadalcanal and was jumped by two Zeroes. He dove into clouds and eluded them. While trying to make his way back to the base, he spotted one of the Zeroes below him and just dove on it. One short burst from his nose mounted .50cals set it on fire and spiraling into the ocean. He said it burned all the way down. That was one of 7 confirmed kills that he got (the others were in a Hellcat when he was allowed to return to fighter duty in 1943.)

SBD was not a plane to be taken lightly by the Japanese. Many a Japanese pilot has mistaken it for a Wildcat and did not live to recount the story. Saburo Sakai almost lost his life instead of an eye, due to that mistaken identity. Rear Gunner Harold Jones made a believer out of him when he blew his canopy off and blinded him with a short burst of the .30 calibers in the rear cockpit.

[Ed Rotondaro]

SBD was not a plane to be taken lightly by the Japanese. Many a Japanese pilot has mistaken it for a Wildcat and did not live to recount the story. Saburo Sakai almost lost his life instead of an eye, due to that mistaken identity. Rear Gunner Harold Jones made a believer out of him when he blew his canopy off and blinded him with a short burst of the .30 calibers in the rear cockpit.

Dennis:

I heard that it was an Avenger that he jumped that did the deed, but I can't believe any pilot would mistake a TBF for a Wildcat. Sakai may not have not known what he got hit by.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I heard that it was an Avenger that he jumped that did the deed, but I can't believe any pilot would mistake a TBF for a Wildcat. Sakai may not have not known what he got hit by.

It wasn't an Avenger, it was an SBD-3 from VB-6, the Enterprise flown Ensign Robert Shaw. Sakai fired 232 rounds at the SBD, but she kept flying, but it was ARM1 Harold L. Shaw that gave him the lesson in attacking an SBD from above. Sakai did not return to flying until 1944 even then, with one bad eye.

[Mike Malanaphy]

It wasn't an Avenger, it was an SBD-3 from VB-6, the Enterprise flown Ensign Robert Shaw. Sakai fired 232 rounds at the SBD, but she kept flying, but it was ARM1 Harold L. Shaw that gave him the lesson in attacking an SBD from above. Sakai did not return to flying until 1944 even then, with one bad eye.

Hi Dennis,

I think Sakai's memoires identify them as Avengers, but Sakai would have never survived even a glancing head wound from a 720 grain .50 cal round. Still an amazing survival story and flying skill. Almost as amazing as his dog fight over Iwo Jima with 15 Hellcats wiht only one eye.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

I think Sakai's memoires identify them as Avengers, but Sakai would have never survived even a glancing head wound from a 720 grain .50 cal round. Still an amazing survival story and flying skill. Almost as amazing as his dog fight over Iwo Jima with 15 Hellcats wiht only one eye.

The fight in question took place over Skylark Channel just as Sakai and three others were cutting across to Tulagi in a cloud bank at 7800 ft. Sakai spotted eight Grumman fighters and decided to ambush. Unfortunately, they were not Grumman fighters but eight SBD's from VB-6 and VS-5, carrying 500 lb bombs. Sakai attempted a low deflection stern attack but did not realize that he was not facing sixteen .30 cal machine guns. The rest of the Zero pilots followed, as it was too late to change the plan. Sakai was caught in a crossfire from the sixteen rear gunners shattering his windscreen, tearing open his head. He went inverted, diving away with a smoking engine. Two of the Zero's did manage to break off the attack.

Source: The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign, page 56.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The fight in question took place over Skylark Channel just as Sakai and three others were cutting across to Tulagi in a cloud bank at 7800 ft. Sakai spotted eight Grumman fighters and decided to ambush. Unfortunately, they were not Grumman fighters but eight SBD's from VB-6 and VS-5, carrying 500 lb bombs. Sakai attempted a low deflection stern attack but did not realize that he was not facing sixteen .30 cal machine guns. The rest of the Zero pilots followed, as it was too late to change the plan. Sakai was caught in a crossfire from the sixteen rear gunners shattering his windscreen, tearing open his head. He went inverted, diving away with a smoking engine. Two of the Zero's did manage to break off the attack.

Source: The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign, page 56.

Dennis and Mike:

The description of his flight home and the ensuing surgery to save his one eye are gripping. One can understand why the IJN used such brutal methods to train their pilots. Very few people could have survived that ordeal. A gallant warrior for sure.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis and Mike:

The description of his flight home and the ensuing surgery to save his one eye are gripping. One can understand why the IJN used such brutal methods to train their pilots. Very few people could have survived that ordeal. A gallant warrior for sure.

Ed:
You have to have respect for his tenacity. However, I don't have much confidence in his ability to recognize a foreign aircraft. Had those really been Avenger's, the sixteen fifties would have exploded his aircraft. He was very lucky, to say the least.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed:
You have to have respect for his tenacity. However, I don't have much confidence in his ability to recognize a foreign aircraft. Had those really been Avenger's, the sixteen fifties would have exploded his aircraft. He was very lucky, to say the least.

Dennis:

I wonder if his inability to recognize the SBDs was due to the fact that he generally faced land based aircraft. In the book, you'll note that he was mainly shooting down P-39s, P-40s etc. His airgroup had not faced naval aviators until Guadalcanal. In fact his own squadron commander warned the pilots that the USN and Marine pilots were much more dangerous than the opposition than they had faced to date. I can see mistaking a Hellcat for a Wildcat, but the SBD doesn't look anything like a Wildcat.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I wonder if his inability to recognize the SBDs was due to the fact that he generally faced land based aircraft. In the book, you'll note that he was mainly shooting down P-39s, P-40s etc. His airgroup had not faced naval aviators until Guadalcanal. In fact his own squadron commander warned the pilots that the USN and Marine pilots were much more dangerous than the opposition than they had faced to date. I can see mistaking a Hellcat for a Wildcat, but the SBD doesn't look anything like a Wildcat.

Sakai and his three comrades had climbed to 13000 feet, clouds broken, over the Guadalcanal coast. He immediately spotted a cluster of enemy aircraft below, notified his comrades and increased power to dive on the enemy aircraft. He aimed for the aircraft on the right, assuming it was a Wildcat. As he got closer to within 100 yards, he realized it wasn't. He assumed it was an Avenger, but that claim is from his co-writer Martin Caiden, not Sakai. He closed in from less than 60 yards, but was caught in the crossfire by the SBD's. He was attempting to do a low side stern attack and was moving too fast to change direction. From the altitude and speed, it was easy in broken clouds to mistake the SBDs for Wildcats, until it was too late. Had they been Avengers, the 720 grain .50 cal incendiary bullets would have exploded the Zero.

The Enterprise Action Log reports that they launched eight VSBs, Flight 319, with 500# bombs under LT. Horenburger at 1215 on August 7th, 1942 with a mission of providing air support for Tulagi. All eight returned the Enterprise at 1518 hours with one gunner reporting a Zero shot down. This was Sakai. No Avengers were in the air. The only VT aircraft launched was launched at 0620 hrs, on a search mission. No enemy aircraft were spotted and all VTs returned to the ship by 1121 hrs. Sakai states it was 8 August, but it was 7 August. Possibly because all Japanese times were reference to Tokyo time.

The aircraft encountered had to be Lt. Horenburgers SBDs from VB6. Since they were assigned on a close support mission, they would be at lower altitude, about 5000 feet, which would correspond to Sakai's view of them from 13,000 feet.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

I think Sakai's memoires identify them as Avengers, but Sakai would have never survived even a glancing head wound from a 720 grain .50 cal round. Still an amazing survival story and flying skill. Almost as amazing as his dog fight over Iwo Jima with 15 Hellcats wiht only one eye.

Absolutely, he would never have survived a hit from a .50 cal and he would have been struck much earlier. The mistake was not Sakai's, it was the co-writer Martin Caiden's. This is according to Barrett Tillman.