Where would you make your stand?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

This is a thread on where you personally would have fought in battle. There are no right answers. It is mainly to draw out the opinions of forum members on memorable battles on land, sea or air and why you would have wanted to be there.

For myself I will list the following battles where I would have risked my life for a cause greater than myself:

1. Bannockburn 1314 with King Robert the Bruce fighting for the very independence of Scotland.

2. Midway 1942, preferably as a dive bomber pilot or fighter pilot. Where the US navy's existence was on the line.

3. Bastogne, 1944 as a member of the 101st. Airborne Division. Enough said.

4. The Pusan Perimeter in Korea 1950 as a soldier in the 27th Infantry Regiment (The Wolfhounds). Where the future of South Korea was hanging in the balance.

5. First Gulf war, 1991 as a commander of a company of Abrams tanks in the 2nd ACR. Just for the ability to shoot up the bad guys with almost virtual impunity.

Have fun.

[asnrobert]

Good choices. How about serving as an American soldier during the Revolution (Lexington and Concord, Bunker Hill)? Or serving with the 20th Maine on Little Round Top during the battle for Gettysburg.

[old_pop2000]

Hi:

This is a thread on where you personally would have fought in battle. There are no right answers. It is mainly to draw out the opinions of forum members on memorable battles on land, sea or air and why you would have wanted to be there.

For myself I will list the following battles where I would have risked my life for a cause greater than myself:

1. Bannockburn 1314 with King Robert the Bruce fighting for the very independence of Scotland.

2. Midway 1942, preferably as a dive bomber pilot or fighter pilot. Where the US navy's existence was on the line.

3. Bastogne, 1944 as a member of the 101st. Airborne Division. Enough said.

4. The Pusan Perimeter in Korea 1950 as a soldier in the 27th Infantry Regiment (The Wolfhounds). Where the future of South Korea was hanging in the balance.

5. First Gulf war, 1991 as a commander of a company of Abrams tanks in the 2nd ACR. Just for the ability to shoot up the bad guys with almost virtual impunity.

Have fun.


1. Thermopylae - Reputedly, this is where the concept of democracy was protected by Leonidas and the his 300 Spartans. This battle probably single handedly saved the burgeoning idea of democracy in Athens and other states.

2. Battle of Lepanto - Sea battle between the Holy League and the Ottoman Turks resulting in the defeat of the Ottomans thereby saving the west.

3. Battle of Waterloo - Speaks for itself

4. Battle of Gettysburg - Who would not want to be present and stop Lee for the final attempt to strike north.

5. Pearl Harbor - I would have liked to have been a fighter pilot on one of satellite fields, get my P-40 up into the air, and take a few of the little bastards down.

6. Hiroshima - I would have liked to been the copilot with Paul Tibbetts, and watch Hiroshima evaporate in that A-bomb. Not really a stand but it would have been cool.

7. Lindesfarne - Help the monks of Lindesfarne protect the Abbey from the "wrath of the Northmen"

[john964]

Hi:

This is a thread on where you personally would have fought in battle. There are no right answers. It is mainly to draw out the opinions of forum members on memorable battles on land, sea or air and why you would have wanted to be there.

For myself I will list the following battles where I would have risked my life for a cause greater than myself:

1. Bannockburn 1314 with King Robert the Bruce fighting for the very independence of Scotland.

2. Midway 1942, preferably as a dive bomber pilot or fighter pilot. Where the US navy's existence was on the line.

3. Bastogne, 1944 as a member of the 101st. Airborne Division. Enough said.

4. The Pusan Perimeter in Korea 1950 as a soldier in the 27th Infantry Regiment (The Wolfhounds). Where the future of South Korea was hanging in the balance.

5. First Gulf war, 1991 as a commander of a company of Abrams tanks in the 2nd ACR. Just for the ability to shoot up the bad guys with almost virtual impunity.

Have fun.
How about the units that defended St. Vith during the Bulge or the overmached and inexperenced 106th IDIV or the ad hoc units that defended Elsensborn Ridge. also during the Bulge.

[paladin5]

1. Thermopylae - Those 300 Spartans plus a few hundred other Greeks arguably fought better and harder then any other force in history.


2. Battle of Sunda Strait. It must of been an awe inspiring sight to see USS Houston and HMAS Perth in their gallant fight to the death against the Japanese Cruisers and Destroyers.


3. Battle of Samar: Arguably the finest two hours in the 230+ year history of the United States Navy. To see the DD's and DE's charging towards the IJN's Center Force must have been quite the sight to behold.

[asnrobert]

Then there's the Alamo...

[clacton2]

My choices:

1) Rorkes Drift - Zulu War
2) The Alamo - Texan Independence War
3) Serving on HMS Jervis Bay during her epic battle with the Germans - Battle of the Atlantic
4) Serving on HMS Victory - Battle of Trafalgar
5) Serving on HMS Warspite - Battle of Jutland

Cheers
Jon:)

[keschofield]

SS Stephen Hopkins

[Ed Rotondaro]

Good choices. How about serving as an American soldier during the Revolution (Lexington and Concord, Bunker Hill)? Or serving with the 20th Maine on Little Round Top during the battle for Gettysburg.


Robert:

Definitely the American Revolution, perhaps at Saratoga too. I purposely avoided the American Civil War because while I felt that the Union cause was correct, I would not have wanted to kill other Americans and I deeply respect the bravery of the Confederate soldiers in their lost cause. But the 20th Maine definitely was a brave and dedicated regiment.

[Ed Rotondaro]

1. Thermopylae - Reputedly, this is where the concept of democracy was protected by Leonidas and the his 300 Spartans. This battle probably single handedly saved the burgeoning idea of democracy in Athens and other states.

2. Battle of Lepanto - Sea battle between the Holy League and the Ottoman Turks resulting in the defeat of the Ottomans thereby saving the west.

3. Battle of Waterloo - Speaks for itself

4. Battle of Gettysburg - Who would not want to be present and stop Lee for the final attempt to strike north.

5. Pearl Harbor - I would have liked to have been a fighter pilot on one of satellite fields, get my P-40 up into the air, and take a few of the little bastards down.

6. Hiroshima - I would have liked to been the copilot with Paul Tibbetts, and watch Hiroshima evaporate in that A-bomb. Not really a stand but it would have been cool.

7. Lindesfarne - Help the monks of Lindesfarne protect the Abbey from the "wrath of the Northmen"

Dennis:

Good calls, although I would pass on Hiroshima. Too much death and no way for the enemy to fight back. In keeping with Lindesfarne, I would have liked to have fought at Stamford Bridge with Harold Godwinson against his treacherous brother and the Vikings.

[Ed Rotondaro]

How about the units that defended St. Vith during the Bulge or the overmached and inexperenced 106th IDIV or the ad hoc units that defended Elsensborn Ridge. also during the Bulge.

John:

Good choices, actually anywhere during the Bulge as a US soldier would have been worth it.

[Ed Rotondaro]

1. Thermopylae - Those 300 Spartans plus a few hundred other Greeks arguably fought better and harder then any other force in history.


2. Battle of Sunda Strait. It must of been an awe inspiring sight to see USS Houston and HMAS Perth in their gallant fight to the death against the Japanese Cruisers and Destroyers.


3. Battle of Samar: Arguably the finest two hours in the 230+ year history of the United States Navy. To see the DD's and DE's charging towards the IJN's Center Force must have been quite the sight to behold.

Mike:

Splendid choice with Samar! I can't believe I overlooked that one.

[Ed Rotondaro]

My choices:

1) Rorkes Drift - Zulu War
2) The Alamo - Texan Independence War
3) Serving on HMS Jervis Bay during her epic battle with the Germans - Battle of the Atlantic
4) Serving on HMS Victory - Battle of Trafalgar
5) Serving on HMS Warspite - Battle of Jutland

Cheers
Jon:)

Jon:

Good call on Rorkes Drift, another epic battle that I overlooked. The fun of this topic is there is so much to chose from. HMS Warspite would have been another excellent site for standing your ground.

[Ed Rotondaro]

SS Stephen Hopkins

Kurt:

Never forget the Merchant Marine and its gallant service. Good call.

[paladin5]

Mike:

Splendid choice with Samar! I can't believe I overlooked that one.


I thought that is one you would like Ed. :D

[john964]

1. Thermopylae - Those 300 Spartans plus a few hundred other Greeks arguably fought better and harder then any other force in history.


2. Battle of Sunda Strait. It must of been an awe inspiring sight to see USS Houston and HMAS Perth in their gallant fight to the death against the Japanese Cruisers and Destroyers.


3. Battle of Samar: Arguably the finest two hours in the 230+ year history of the United States Navy. To see the DD's and DE's charging towards the IJN's Center Force must have been quite the sight to behold.
How about the ABDA force in the early months of 1942. An undersupplied, undersupported, undertrained, inexperenced force using mostly obselete or aging equpment. Facing to put it mildly overwhelming odds with about a zero chance of success. IIRC the ABDA force was made up of 2 CA's 3 CL's and 12-15 DD's facing at a minumum five times that number.

[paladin5]

How about the ABDA force in the early months of 1942. An undersupplied, undersupported, undertrained, inexperenced force using mostly obselete or aging equpment. Facing to put it mildly overwhelming odds with about a zero chance of success. IIRC the ABDA force was made up of 2 CA's 3 CL's and 12-15 DD's facing at a minumum five times that number.


Good point, but I was trying to pick out specific battles.

[paladin5]

My choices:

1) Rorkes Drift - Zulu War
2) The Alamo - Texan Independence War
3) Serving on HMS Jervis Bay during her epic battle with the Germans - Battle of the Atlantic
4) Serving on HMS Victory - Battle of Trafalgar
5) Serving on HMS Warspite - Battle of Jutland

Cheers
Jon:)

Oh I like the the HMS Jervis Bay one. I would have loved to be aboard Jellicoe's flagship at Jutland simply so I could beat him senseless for being so damn indecisive. Same goes for the German commander. Though in his case I can't fault him for not wanting to see the battle through to it's logical conclusion.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I thought that is one you would like Ed. :D

Mike:

Yes and I overlooked it. I had read the excellent book "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" a few years back and it really gets you caught up in what those sailors went thru.

[paladin5]

Mike:

Yes and I overlooked it. I had read the excellent book "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" a few years back and it really gets you caught up in what those sailors went thru.


I know I read that one myself earlier this year (or last year, i can't remember which).

[Ed Rotondaro]

Oh I like the the HMS Jervis Bay one. I would have loved to be aboard Jellicoe's flagship at Jutland simply so I could beat him senseless for being so damn indecisive. Same goes for the German commander. Though in his case I can't fault him for not wanting to see the battle through to it's logical conclusion.

Mike:

With all due respect, I will cut Jellicoe some slack at Jutland. As Churchill said "He was the only man who had the capacity to lose the war in an afternoon". He was poorly served by his subordinate commanders. The communication of direction of the German Fleet was ignored. Jellicoe had to make a gut decision as to where he though Scheer was headed and he did that twice. The night actions showed the British for just following orders. Contacts were not reported even by admirals. Had even one of Jellicoe's subordinates told him that the High Seas Fleet was slipping behind him, he could have re-positioned his fleet to cut them off and finish them in the morning. I recommend the book "The Rules of the Game" by Andrew Gordon. It is two books in one. First off it is the single best account of Jutland. Secondly it is also a social history of the Royal Navy in the years after Trafalgar and an example of how the increases in technology were not properly integrated into a military organization. British officers were expected to be gentlemen, respectful and not too bright. The upper class that dominated the navy preferred a "proper chap who wouldn't embarrass his commander". For decades, the officers who specialized in engineering were not even allowed to eat with the other officers as they were seen as mechanics or tradesmen, not proper officers.

Jellicoe was perhaps overly fearful of submarines and mines, but the effectiveness of these weapons had taught the RN that being overly aggressive could lead to heavy losses. Contrast Beatty commanding the battlecruisers. He was bold and aggressive, yet he never communicated his plans to Admiral Evan Thomas who commanded the four Queen Elizabeth "fast battleships" attached to his battlecruiser squadron. Never met with the man once before Jutland. Hell Nelson met with all his captains before Trafalgar to ensure they understood how he intended to fight.

Admiral Scheer on the other hand was an idiot. He allows his fleet to get its "T" crossed and barely escapes. Then he decides to come back and it happens again. He never gives an adequate answer as to why he did it. Of all the admirals at Jutland, only one was without blame and that was Hipper who commanded the German battlecruisers. He won his battle (3 RN BCs sunk to one German BC scuttled).

Not meaning to come down on you here, just trying to set the record straight. You probably can find Gordon's book in a decent library. Read it if you want to understand Jutland.;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

I know I read that one myself earlier this year (or last year, i can't remember which).

Mike:

I have his most recent book "Ship of Ghosts" which covers the loss of the USS Houston in the early days of WWII and the subsequent struggles of the captured crew to survive as POWs. I might tackle that next after I finish my current reading assignment. It's almost as bad as college, hanging on this forum. You gotta study constantly or Old_pop will nail ya!:D

[john964]

Good point, but I was trying to pick out specific battles.
Mike, The ABDA force took part in several battles, raids, and scouting missions. They did it with next to nothing for air cover, minumal support facilities IIRC 1 small floating dry dock and 1 meidum dry dock, very little supply. The total force was IIRC

USN
USS Houston (Sunk)
USS Marblehead (Badly Damaged)
8 Wickes and Clemson class DD (6 of 8 Sunk)

RN
HMS Exeter (Sunk)
2-4 C & D class DD

RAN
HMAS Perth (Sunk)
2-4 V & W class DD

RNN
HNMS Java (Sunk)
HNMS DeRuyter (Sunk)
4 Van Ghent class DD (4 of 4 Sunk)
3 Van Galen class DD (2 of 3 Sunk) Third ship salvaged by Japanese
I don't know what happened to the RN and RAN DD's but if the losses by the others are any indication they probably took a severe beating.

[john964]

Here is another death or glory, The torpedo squadrons of the Battle of Midway.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Another, much earlier and sadly forgotten, death ride: the Battle of Legnica, 1241.

[asnrobert]

Mike, The ABDA force took part in several battles, raids, and scouting missions. They did it with next to nothing for air cover, minumal support facilities IIRC 1 small floating dry dock and 1 meidum dry dock, very little supply. The total force was IIRC

USN
USS Houston (Sunk)
USS Marblehead (Badly Damaged)
8 Wickes and Clemson class DD (6 of 8 Sunk)

RN
HMS Exeter (Sunk)
2-4 C & D class DD

RAN
HMAS Perth (Sunk)
2-4 V & W class DD

RNN
HNMS Java (Sunk)
HNMS DeRuyter (Sunk)
4 Van Ghent class DD (4 of 4 Sunk)
3 Van Galen class DD (2 of 3 Sunk) Third ship salvaged by Japanese
I don't know what happened to the RN and RAN DD's but if the losses by the others are any indication they probably took a severe beating.

The Dutch had another light cruiser, the Tromp, which was damaged but survived the war. The US also had the light cruiser Boise which ran aground early in the campaign and limped home. One of the US destroyers, the Stewart, was scuttled but salvaged by the Japanese and used as a patrol boat.

[asnrobert]

Mike:

I have his most recent book "Ship of Ghosts" which covers the loss of the USS Houston in the early days of WWII and the subsequent struggles of the captured crew to survive as POWs. I might tackle that next after I finish my current reading assignment. It's almost as bad as college, hanging on this forum. You gotta study constantly or Old_pop will nail ya!:D
I read the book at the beginning of the year- it is very good.

[paladin5]

Mike:

With all due respect, I will cut Jellicoe some slack at Jutland. As Churchill said "He was the only man who had the capacity to lose the war in an afternoon". He was poorly served by his subordinate commanders. The communication of direction of the German Fleet was ignored. Jellicoe had to make a gut decision as to where he though Scheer was headed and he did that twice. The night actions showed the British for just following orders. Contacts were not reported even by admirals. Had even one of Jellicoe's subordinates told him that the High Seas Fleet was slipping behind him, he could have re-positioned his fleet to cut them off and finish them in the morning. I recommend the book "The Rules of the Game" by Andrew Gordon. It is two books in one. First off it is the single best account of Jutland. Secondly it is also a social history of the Royal Navy in the years after Trafalgar and an example of how the increases in technology were not properly integrated into a military organization. British officers were expected to be gentlemen, respectful and not too bright. The upper class that dominated the navy preferred a "proper chap who wouldn't embarrass his commander". For decades, the officers who specialized in engineering were not even allowed to eat with the other officers as they were seen as mechanics or tradesmen, not proper officers.

Not meaning to come down on you here, just trying to set the record straight. You probably can find Gordon's book in a decent library. Read it if you want to understand Jutland.;)

Hmm I guess their is plenty of blame to go around there.

*has just learned a valuable lesson about adding criticism withoutout looking up all the fact*

Thanks for the serving of humble pie!!!

*adds "The Rules of the Game" by Andrew Gordon to his list of books to buy or get through inter-library loan.*

[paladin5]

Mike:

I have his most recent book "Ship of Ghosts" which covers the loss of the USS Houston in the early days of WWII and the subsequent struggles of the captured crew to survive as POWs. I might tackle that next after I finish my current reading assignment. It's almost as bad as college, hanging on this forum. You gotta study constantly or Old_pop will nail ya!:D


*has been lazy about reading lately*

[Jittery]

1) Kokoda Trail
2) Johore (outside Singapore 1942)
3) RAAF 75 or 77 at Singapore in 1942
4) 2/2 Commando during WW2 in the later 1/2
5) Sundra Strait

My grandfather was one of the fortunate ones who got out of Singapore because he was wounded, he was attached to the 75th or 77th i cant remember at present as an armorer. About the only thing's he ever said about his war time experiences were about the friends he had in that unit and how fortunate he was to get out of Singapore. In the later part of the war served with 2/2 commando throughout the islands campaign after recovering from a tropical disease.

[djcyclone]

How about the Last Stand of Custer, at the Battle of Little Big Horn. (of course as one of the Indians:D)

I am about 25% Cherokee, so I am the wrong tribe, but it would have been nice to be there and see what really happened.

[old_pop2000]

How about the Last Stand of Custer, at the Battle of Little Big Horn. (of course as one of the Indians:D)

I am about 25% Cherokee, so I am the wrong tribe, but it would have been nice to be there and see what really happened.

Actually, it's relatively simple. He broke some cardinal rules of warfare:

intelligence - know your enemy, where he is, in what strength and dispositions

Never split your forces in the face of a superior enemy

Apply maximum firepower(i.e Indians with winchesters, soldiers with Springfield .45-70 single shots) Use the gatlings that were available, don't leave them behind

Don't underestimate your enemy.

Seems simple to this old man, either you follow the rules or you die. One note, we can't blame Custer for the Army's choice of weapon for the soldier, they were trying to save money. Winchester's have a shorter range and you know how soldiers tend to shoot too much and waste ammunition. Especially when confronted by thousands of mad indians. No offense intended.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Actually, it's relatively simple. He broke some cardinal rules of warfare:

intelligence - know your enemy, where he is, in what strength and dispositions

Never split your forces in the face of a superior enemy

Apply maximum firepower(i.e Indians with winchesters, soldiers with Springfield .45-70 single shots) Use the gatlings that were available, don't leave them behind

Don't underestimate your enemy.

Seems simple to this old man, either you follow the rules or you die. One note, we can't blame Custer for the Army's choice of weapon for the soldier, they were trying to save money. Winchester's have a shorter range and you know how soldiers tend to shoot too much and waste ammunition. Especially when confronted by thousands of mad indians. No offense intended.

You might know what they say... "The dangerous part of playing by the book is that the enemy reads the same book you do."

Here, though, the Indians probably didn´t read the book - however I would assume they were not stupid, and had some experience fighting the army.

My interpretation of what happened is that Custer came to believe in all the flattery written about him, thinking himself invincible - plus he thought the enemy completely imcompetent, a mistake that is very common in most militaries.

[paladin5]

You might know what they say... "The dangerous part of playing by the book is that the enemy reads the same book you do."

Here, though, the Indians probably didn´t read the book - however I would assume they were not stupid, and had some experience fighting the army.

My interpretation of what happened is that Custer came to believe in all the flattery written about him, thinking himself invincible - plus he thought the enemy completely imcompetent, a mistake that is very common in most militaries.


I wouldn't say that Custer followed the book. More like he ignored every important part of the book.

[old_pop2000]

You might know what they say... "The dangerous part of playing by the book is that the enemy reads the same book you do."

Here, though, the Indians probably didn´t read the book - however I would assume they were not stupid, and had some experience fighting the army.

My interpretation of what happened is that Custer came to believe in all the flattery written about him, thinking himself invincible - plus he thought the enemy completely imcompetent, a mistake that is very common in most militaries.

It is never a question of fighting by the book. It is a question of understanding when to break some of the rules, not all of them. It is having a clear understanding of your enemies capabilities, respecting them and applying the rules in a judicious way. You can break some of the rules and get away with it, but it is rare that you can break all of the rules. These aren't rules anyway, probably a bad use of the term. They are more like guidelines. If you follow the guidelines, you will have success more often than not.

[old_pop2000]

I wouldn't say that Custer followed the book. More like he ignored every important part of the book.

Well said. That is it, exactly. However, it is possible that he was attempting restore his honor with a great victory after being convicted on two counts of abandoning his troops and having deserters shot without a hearing. But, we are not here to discuss George A. Custer.

[djcyclone]

Well said. That is it, exactly. However, it is possible that he was attempting restore his honor with a great victory after being convicted on two counts of abandoning his troops and having deserters shot without a hearing. But, we are not here to discuss George A. Custer.

Good thing we are not discussing him. I think everyone with a sense of decensy has the same opinion of that guy.

This forum does not allow the language that would be necissary to describe that man.

[Spook046]

If choosing to stand among the native tribes of North America, my own preferences would be to have stood with Tecumseh in any of his battles (which included his likely participation in St. Clair's Defeat, a far greater victory than Little Bighorn yet little mentioned in history books IMO) or with Chief Joseph and his Nez Perce in their trek to escape to Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/St.-Clair's-Defeat

[Ed Rotondaro]

If choosing to stand among the native tribes of North America, my own preferences would be to have stood with Tecumseh in any of his battles (which included his likely participation in St. Clair's Defeat, a far greater victory than Little Bighorn yet little mentioned in history books IMO) or with Chief Joseph and his Nez Perce in their trek to escape to Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/St.-Clair's-Defeat

Ed:

As a continuation of this topic: What last stands would you fight at even knowing you're on the losing side?

1. Hastings Oct 1066 as part of the Saxon shield wall of King Harold Godwinson.

2. Bataan May 1942 with the surrounded US forces.

3. The Alamo with the Texans.

4. The Siege of Constantinople in 1453 with last Byzantine Emperor.

5. Trafalgar 1805 with the French and Spanish fleet.

[old_pop2000]

Good thing we are not discussing him. I think everyone with a sense of decensy has the same opinion of that guy.

This forum does not allow the language that would be necissary to describe that man.

You are quite possibly correct, however, I blame his superiors and the army. Sheridan was at fault for reinstating him, his immediate superiors should have controlled him. The choice of personal small arms was the US Army's, not G.A. Custer. The attitude that Custer displayed about the abilities of the native americans, was prevalent throughout the Army. Custer was a maverick but still a product of USMA.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Ed:

As a continuation of this topic: What last stands would you fight at even knowing you're on the losing side?

1. Hastings Oct 1066 as part of the Saxon shield wall of King Harold Godwinson.

2. Bataan May 1942 with the surrounded US forces.

3. The Alamo with the Texans.

4. The Siege of Constantinople in 1453 with last Byzantine Emperor.

5. Trafalgar 1805 with the French and Spanish fleet.

As stated before, the Battle of Legnica 1241 - the desperate last stand of Germany and Poland against the Mongol hordes.

Perhaps with the Gauls in Alesia, or with the Aztecs in Tenochtitlan.

[clacton2]

Ed:

As a continuation of this topic: What last stands would you fight at even knowing you're on the losing side?

1. Hastings Oct 1066 as part of the Saxon shield wall of King Harold Godwinson.

2. Bataan May 1942 with the surrounded US forces.

3. The Alamo with the Texans.

4. The Siege of Constantinople in 1453 with last Byzantine Emperor.

5. Trafalgar 1805 with the French and Spanish fleet.


Hi Ed,
My picks would be:

1) The Battle for Singapore 1942 with the garrison
2) The Battle of the Java Sea 1942 with the ABDA Force
3) Gettysburg with the Confederates
4) The Battle of Thermopylae with the Spartans
5) Battle of the Somme WWI with the poor sods who went over the top on day 1
and finally:
6) As one of HMS Li Wo's crew in their gallant last fight against overwhelming odds off the coast of Batavia in 1942 ( see attached link for more info, if you are not familiar with this largely unknown epic )
http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/biographies/listliwocrew.html

Jon

[old_pop2000]

As stated before, the Battle of Legnica 1241 - the desperate last stand of Germany and Poland against the Mongol hordes.

Perhaps with the Gauls in Alesia, or with the Aztecs in Tenochtitlan.

I had to remember the other name of Legnica, Leignitz. Interesting battle. Shame Henry The Pious fell for the retreat stratagem so popular with the Tartars. Also, the smoke screen trick worked well.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,
My picks would be:

1) The Battle for Singapore 1942 with the garrison
2) The Battle of the Java Sea 1942 with the ABDA Force
3) Gettysburg with the Confederates
4) The Battle of Thermopylae with the Spartans
5) Battle of the Somme WWI with the poor sods who went over the top on day 1
and finally:
6) As one of HMS Li Wo's crew in their gallant last fight against overwhelming odds off the coast of Batavia in 1942 ( see attached link for more info, if you are not familiar with this largely unknown epic )
http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/biographies/listliwocrew.html

Jon

Jon:

Good ones. I'll add Rorke's Drift as one of the English soldiers.

[keschofield]

.....6) As one of HMS Li Wo's crew in their gallant last fight against overwhelming odds off the coast of Batavia in 1942 ( see attached link for more info, if you are not familiar with this largely unknown epic )
http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/biographies/listliwocrew.html

Jon

Wow, I had never heard that story! Obviously, the Nelsonian tradition was not dead yet in 1942. Three hurrahs for the RN and HMS Li Wo!

After this incident, the sacrifice of the ABDA, the stand of Bataan & Corregidor, the last stand of the Dutch marines in Indonesia, the pilots attacking Zeros with P-39's and even a few P-26's, and the stand at Wake (among many, many others), I would say that the Japanese got a wake up call about what they were facing. Obviously the occidentals were not going to go gently into the night!

[clacton2]

Wow, I had never heard that story! Obviously, the Nelsonian tradition was not dead yet in 1942. Three hurrahs for the RN and HMS Li Wo!

After this incident, the sacrifice of the ABDA, the stand of Bataan & Corregidor, the last stand of the Dutch marines in Indonesia, the pilots attacking Zeros with P-39's and even a few P-26's, and the stand at Wake (among many, many others), I would say that the Japanese got a wake up call about what they were facing. Obviously the occidentals were not going to go gently into the night!


Hi Kurt,
Hoped people would find it interesting, it is a largely forgotten and ignored epic of WWII, mainly due to it not being known about until after the war, and the subsequent posthumous award of the VC to Lt. Wilkinson RNR + many other awards to this gallant ships company.
There is a good book which describes this action, called "Stand by to Die" by A.V. Sellwood, published by New English Library in 1961, but still available if you look hard enough.
Heres a bit more on the action plus news on survivors and the awards:
http://members.dodo.net.au/~mervynw/li%20wo.htm

Jon

[Ed Rotondaro]

Wow, I had never heard that story! Obviously, the Nelsonian tradition was not dead yet in 1942. Three hurrahs for the RN and HMS Li Wo!

After this incident, the sacrifice of the ABDA, the stand of Bataan & Corregidor, the last stand of the Dutch marines in Indonesia, the pilots attacking Zeros with P-39's and even a few P-26's, and the stand at Wake (among many, many others), I would say that the Japanese got a wake up call about what they were facing. Obviously the occidentals were not going to go gently into the night!

Kurt:

Wake Island, good call. "Bloody Ridge" on Guadalcanal with the Marines while fighting off a fever of 104 degrees from malaria. Tough troops those old breed Marines.

[Spook046]

Ed:

As a continuation of this topic: What last stands would you fight at even knowing you're on the losing side?

1. Hastings Oct 1066 as part of the Saxon shield wall of King Harold Godwinson.

2. Bataan May 1942 with the surrounded US forces.

3. The Alamo with the Texans.

4. The Siege of Constantinople in 1453 with last Byzantine Emperor.

5. Trafalgar 1805 with the French and Spanish fleet.

Well, if constrained to those choices, I'd opt for the French/Spanish at Trafalgar. While their gunnery standards and ship handling weren't anywhere close to those for the RN at that time, some of those French/Spanish ships still accorded themselves very courageously, such as Redoutable in her close-quarters fight with HMS Victory.

Given other alternatives and also being pre-cognitively part of a losing side, I'd cast my lot with the 2nd Paras in their stand at Arnhem.

Or the 21st Ohio at Chickamauga.

[paladin5]

Well, if constrained to those choices, I'd opt for the French/Spanish at Trafalgar. While their gunnery standards and ship handling weren't anywhere close to those for the RN at that time, some of those French/Spanish ships still accorded themselves very courageously, such as Redoutable in her close-quarters fight with HMS Victory.

Given other alternatives and also being pre-cognitively part of a losing side, I'd cast my lot with the 2nd Paras in their stand at Arnhem.

Or the 21st Ohio at Chickamauga.


I would probably opt for Trafalgar as well.

[djcyclone]

How about Normandy, for the Germans. I am just the crazy enough type to volunteer for something like that.:cool:

[djcyclone]

I'll tell you a battle I would really like to see. The Spanish American Naval battle off the coast of Cuba.:D

That would have been cool. No missles, no torpedoes, just flat out cannon to cannon, and may the best fleet win.:cool:

[john964]

I'll tell you a battle I would really like to see. The Spanish American Naval battle off the coast of Cuba.:D

That would have been cool. No missles, no torpedoes, just flat out cannon to cannon, and may the best fleet win.:cool:The Battle of Santiago. This battle was more like fishing with TNT. There was no chance for the spanish to win. The spanish suffered from defective guns and ammo, no crew training and poor matiriel condition of the ships. One ship didn't even have main guns installed (Colon).

[clacton2]

Hi,
Another good one would be on Admiral Tojo's flagship at the battle of Tsushima, no planes, no submarines again, just good old fashioned naval blasting warfare!

Jon:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

How about Normandy, for the Germans. I am just the crazy enough type to volunteer for something like that.:cool:

DJ:

A good deal of the troops on the "German side" were actually captured POWs forced into service as fortress troops. They would have surrendered as soon as possible except there was always a German NCO with a machine pistol keeping an eye on them.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi,
Another good one would be on Admiral Tojo's flagship at the battle of Tsushima, no planes, no submarines again, just good old fashioned naval blasting warfare!

Jon:D

Jon:

Yes, but my sympathies would be with the Russian fleet.

[clacton2]

Jon:

Yes, but my sympathies would be with the Russian fleet.

Hi Ed,
Agreed about the Russians, especially after making such an epic voyage to get there, although they did try to destroy a British fishing fleet in error on the way.

Jon:D

[Kyle Holgate]

Arnhem - one of the "Alamo" battles of WW2

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,
Agreed about the Russians, especially after making such an epic voyage to get there, although they did try to destroy a British fishing fleet in error on the way.

Jon:D

Jon:

I read the book "The Tsar's Last Armada" that covers the voyage and the battle. I can't believe that the Russians thought there were Japanese torpedo boats in Northern waters. Total incompetence and paranoia.

[paladin5]

Jon:

I read the book "The Tsar's Last Armada" that covers the voyage and the battle. I can't believe that the Russians thought there were Japanese torpedo boats in Northern waters. Total incompetence and paranoia.


Is it just me or is paranoia a recurring theme for the Russians?

[old_pop2000]

Is it just me or is paranoia a recurring theme for the Russians?

Well, they have been invaded by the Mongols, the Vikings, Muslims, the Germans twice, The Swede's under Charles, the Magyars, the Percids and of course, Napoleon. Yeah, I'd say they probably have a paranoia against invasions for a good reason.

[paladin5]

Well, they have been invaded by the Mongols, the Vikings, Muslims, the Germans twice, The Swede's under Charles, the Magyars, the Percids and of course, Napoleon. Yeah, I'd say they probably have a paranoia against invasions for a good reason.


Good point Dennis. If I was getting invaded all the time I guess I would get paranoid as well. Oh and you forgot the Germans in your list.

[old_pop2000]

Good point Dennis. If I was getting invaded all the time I guess I would get paranoid as well. Oh and you forgot the Germans in your list.

No I didn't. Check the list again. :D


Mongols, the Vikings, Muslims, the Germans twice

*Hands his friend a pair of reading glasses*:p

[Ed Rotondaro]

Well, they have been invaded by the Mongols, the Vikings, Muslims, the Germans twice, The Swede's under Charles, the Magyars, the Percids and of course, Napoleon. Yeah, I'd say they probably have a paranoia against invasions for a good reason.

Dennis:

People forget that the Warsaw Pack was more of a defensive alliance than and offensive alliance. Russia would have had a hard time forcing some of the member states to invade Germany.

[asnrobert]

Jon:

I read the book "The Tsar's Last Armada" that covers the voyage and the battle. I can't believe that the Russians thought there were Japanese torpedo boats in Northern waters. Total incompetence and paranoia.
Major league incompetence. Russian gunnery was so bad they only managed to sink one fishing boat after 10 minutes of firing. I believe they actually managed to inflict higher casualties on themselves- I know the chaplain on the cruiser Aurora was killed due to friendly fire. A British observer commented that the Russian squadron was "a scratch fleet with a scratch crew."

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

People forget that the Warsaw Pack was more of a defensive alliance than and offensive alliance. Russia would have had a hard time forcing some of the member states to invade Germany.

Even if they did, they would be third echelon troops, first or second. They might or might not participate.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Even if they did, they would be third echelon troops, first or second. They might or might not participate.

Dennis:

Fortunately a war we didn't have to fight. It would have been brutal, especially in the air because at least the Soviets had pretty good planes and pilots.

[paladin5]

No I didn't. Check the list again. :D



*Hands his friend a pair of reading glasses*:p


I already have glasses, though not for reading. Beyond 10 or so feet everything gets blurry without them. I just need to read stuff more carefully.

[JohnT]

Dennis:

Fortunately a war we didn't have to fight. It would have been brutal, especially in the air because at least the Soviets had pretty good planes and pilots.


For an number of years during the cold war I expected my last stand to be somewhere between my home and the mobilzation depot.

The place I'd like to been and at a place where one Individual could have made a difference where My Lai March 16, 1968


Sincerly
/John T.

[old_pop2000]

For an number of years during the cold war I expected my last stand to be somewhere between my home and the mobilzation depot.

The place I'd like to been and at a place where one Individual could have made a difference where My Lai March 16, 1968


Sincerly
/John T.

One person could not have made a difference at My Lai. The seeds of that event took place years earlier with the use of draftee's in the military. People who really did not want to be in Viet Nam. If you think you could, you are deceiving yourself. The whole structure of the US Army could not make a difference.

My Lai was an expression, by one company, of the frustration of the US military with a lost cause. Believe me, when I tell you, that our airmen, wiped out more in one bombing raid, than all civilians at My Lai. And they did it, almost every time they had a mission. It was the nature of the operations. In time, everyone was treated as VC. I had a poster on my wall in my room in the USAF, that showed a B-52 flying toward you, with a stream of bombs leading away from it, hitting a village. The caption read " Well, there goes another friendly village". Funny, but tragically correct.

[asnrobert]

One person could not have made a difference at My Lai. The seeds of that event took place years earlier with the use of draftee's in the military. People who really did not want to be in Viet Nam. If you think you could, you are deceiving yourself. The whole structure of the US Army could not make a difference.

My Lai was an expression, by one company, of the frustration of the US military with a lost cause. Believe me, when I tell you, that our airmen, wiped out more in one bombing raid, than all civilians at My Lai. And they did it, almost every time they had a mission. It was the nature of the operations. In time, everyone was treated as VC. I had a poster on my wall in my room in the USAF, that showed a B-52 flying toward you, with a stream of bombs leading away from it, hitting a village. The caption read " Well, there goes another friendly village". Funny, but tragically correct.

I'm reminded of the helicopter gunner in the movie Full Metal Jacket: "If they run, they're VC. If they stand still, they're well disciplined VC."

[old_pop2000]

I'm reminded of the helicopter gunner in the movie Full Metal Jacket: "If they run, they're VC. If they stand still, they're well disciplined VC."

I tend not to watch Viet Nam era war stories, but I do remember that one. After watching Charles Kuralt, Dan Rather, Walter Cronkite et al, night after night, week after week for years, Viet Nam era war stories are anticlimatic.

[keschofield]

I tend not to watch them also, for two reasons:

1) Too many friends who didn't come back; and

2) Haven't seen one yet that didn't hit you over the head with its political opinions (not always very informed)

I guess even after 30+ years the wound is still too raw for me and I wasn't even in the military.

My stance on the Viet Nam era is to: First and foremost remember my fallen friends; Second thank every veteran I can find; & Third thank the good lord that its over and leave it in the past where it belongs.

[old_pop2000]

I tend not to watch them also, for two reasons:

1) Too many friends who didn't come back; and

2) Haven't seen one yet that didn't hit you over the head with its political opinions (not always very informed)

I guess even after 30+ years the wound is still too raw for me and I wasn't even in the military.

My stance on the Viet Nam era is to: First and foremost remember my fallen friends; Second thank every veteran I can find; & Third thank the good lord that its over and leave it in the past where it belongs.

I would agree with almost all of that. I lost friends, classmates etc. The movies tended to be more political, less about the combat and problems with insurgent warfare. I spent the period from 1968 to 1972 sitting on a mountain or in Fallon, watching for the Russians. In our estimation, they were more of a threat than a bunch of VC. One VC with an AK-47 could only hurt a few, but a Russian ICBM or Bomber could kill millions. Sorry, but when you weigh those odds, those of us who sat and watched the skys or sat in Europe, did far more to maintain peace, than all the VC or NVA that were killed.

I agree with your stance, lets leave it in the past where it belongs but lets not forget it, but learn from the death of all those 58,000 men and women.

Suggest we now leave this subject, it does get too political and I don't believe it belongs here.

[djcyclone]

I tend not to watch them also, for two reasons:

1) Too many friends who didn't come back; and

2) Haven't seen one yet that didn't hit you over the head with its political opinions (not always very informed)

I guess even after 30+ years the wound is still too raw for me and I wasn't even in the military.

My stance on the Viet Nam era is to: First and foremost remember my fallen friends; Second thank every veteran I can find; & Third thank the good lord that its over and leave it in the past where it belongs.


I think "We where Soilders" did a pretty good job of covering it, but that is just my opinion. I havn't seen any other that I can think of who would compete with that movie.

I do think that Rambo was a good set of movies. I know they put some stuff in there that was obserd, but I think the first one was vary descent. It covered just what the soilders who came back, had to go through.

Did you know that the number of soilders who took their own life after they returned, is nearly equal to the number of soilders that we lost in actualy war time?

[old_pop2000]

I think "We where Soilders" did a pretty good job of covering it, but that is just my opinion. I havn't seen any other that I can think of who would compete with that movie.

I do think that Rambo was a good set of movies. I know they put some stuff in there that was obserd, but I think the first one was vary descent. It covered just what the soilders who came back, had to go through.

Did you know that the number of soilders who took their own life after they returned, is nearly equal to the number of soilders that we lost in actualy war time?

I would agree about "We were Soldiers". But it was about the period when were fighting with professional soldiers, not draftees. The First Air Cav was an elite outfit, led by some of the best officers in the Army.

I thought Rambo was ok. A bit much, though. It protrayed all elite Rangers as a bunch of crazed killers--which they weren't.

I had heard that the number of suicides did go up, just like it has in recent years in Iraq. A shame, our kids deserve better.

[keschofield]

... thank every veteran I can find ...

I want to make it very clear that I firmly believe that I owe a huge debt to each and every veteran no matter where and when they served. THANK YOU ALL.

[old_pop2000]

I want to make it very clear that I firmly believe that I owe a huge debt to each and every veteran no matter where and when they served. THANK YOU ALL.

I've never felt we veterans were owed anything. We were given training, good food, lodging, vacations in interesting locations, and more education when we left the service. We had reasonably good medical and dental care. All we had to do, is the job they paid us for. What more could you ask for. They even paid our travel expenses. ;)

[djcyclone]

I've never felt we veterans were owed anything. We were given training, good food, lodging, vacations in interesting locations, and more education when we left the service. We had reasonably good medical and dental care. All we had to do, is the job they paid us for. What more could you ask for. They even paid our travel expenses. ;)

Now hold on a second. Good Food, and Lodging? What Branch where you in? :p

[old_pop2000]

Now hold on a second. Good Food, and Lodging? What Branch where you in? :p

At Fallon, we had steak and lobster on Sundays, about every other month. Fallon is a cattle ranching area, so we had lots of beef. I had a four man room to myself as an NCO. In fact, after leaving tech school, I always had a large four man room to myself.:D:D

Yea, USAF.

[JohnT]

My Lai was an expression, by one company, of the frustration of the US military with a lost cause. Believe me, when I tell you, that our airmen, wiped out more in one bombing raid, than all civilians at My Lai. And they did it, almost every time they had a mission. It was the nature of the operations. In time, everyone was treated as VC. I had a poster on my wall in my room in the USAF, that showed a B-52 flying toward you, with a stream of bombs leading away from it, hitting a village. The caption read " Well, there goes another friendly village". Funny, but tragically correct.


I did pondered a long time before I wrote my first post on this subject.
As a former concript I'd rather explain MY Lay with lack of counterinsurgency doctrine and to some extent to the fact that most Americans in Vietnam where born between Pearl Harbour and the Corean ceasefire. Causing a latent racism raised to the surface by the frustrations you talk about. But that's not the subject of this thread.


But in general I think the most honorable choice of last stand is to stop your own troops committing autrocities, as it requires more moral fibre than just obeying orders and beeing the last man standing.



Cheers
/John T.

[JohnT]

In fact, after leaving tech school, I always had a large four man room to myself.

Yea, USAF.

I can think of two reasons, neither very flattering.:D:eek::D
(Snore or Smell)?

Or just seriously understaffed/peacetime strength ?

Cheers
/John T.

[old_pop2000]

I can think of two reasons, neither very flattering.:D:eek::D
(Snore or Smell)?

Or just seriously understaffed/peacetime strength ?

Cheers
/John T.

It was staffing. The sites did not require as many personnel because the manual tracking system was gone. Everything was automated, all of our targets went to division or Cheyenne Mountain and were tracked and displayed. We only repaired the stuff.

As far as the rooms, there were only four rooms, that were not four person rooms, those were the end rooms.

[djcyclone]

I can think of two reasons, neither very flattering.
(Snore or Smell)?

Or just seriously understaffed/peacetime strength ?

Cheers
/John T.

You had to say snore. During my last 4 months in the service, I shared a room with an African American Kid. I do not remember what his Rate was, but God that guy could scare a bear away with his snoring.

And he Blew his nose every single Day 4 or 5 times. That room had its own Bathroom, with a shower (unlike the barracks I had been in before with a shower room for everyone:mad:)

I remember we ran out of toilet paper, so I went and bought some. He went through a 12 pack in a week just from blowing his nose :eek:. I figured he would go and buy some more, kind of a we will take turns thing. He never did, so I went and bought some more, and locked it in my locker.

That guy had to wake me up two or three times a night with unbelievable snoring.

[john964]

You had to say snore. During my last 4 months in the service, I shared a room with an African American Kid. I do not remember what his Rate was, but God that guy could scare a bear away with his snoring.

And he Blew his nose every single Day 4 or 5 times. That room had its own Bathroom, with a shower (unlike the barracks I had been in before with a shower room for everyone:mad:)

I remember we ran out of toilet paper, so I went and bought some. He went through a 12 pack in a week just from blowing his nose :eek:. I figured he would go and buy some more, kind of a we will take turns thing. He never did, so I went and bought some more, and locked it in my locker.

That guy had to wake me up two or three times a night with unbelievable snoring.

I racked under a guy who snored like a chainsaw reving he would wake me about 3-4 timea night. I got back at him when me and the guy above him both went on leave and we put a handful marbles in a cleared space in are racks it about drove him nuts.

[asnrobert]

I think one of the difficulties with the war in Vietnam was that the enemy often hid among the civilian populace. My 12th grade English teacher served in Vietnam, and he told our class how the VC taught children how to make bombs out of soda pop bottles. The kids would stand on the side of the road and throw their homemade bombs at American vehicles as they drove by. Sometimes they would just throw empty bottles because it was fun to watch the American soldiers jump out and duck for cover. My teacher said it got to the point that whenever they saw kids standing by the side of the road, they would simply run them over. I think in an environment like that it wouldn't take long to adapt a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" attitude.

[djcyclone]

Vary true. When soilders came home they where called murderers, and baby killers.

What the media failed to tell the population, was about the little girls who would run up to a group of soilders and then explode killing all of them.

I cannot imagine a parent putting a bomb on their own child and telling them to run into a group of soilders. There are just parts of this world that make me want to vomit on a regular basis.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of those soilders. I mean one day you hear about you best friend being blown up by an incecent little girl, and the next day you are standing with your weapon drawn and a child is running towards you. Of course you are going to shoot.

[old_pop2000]

Vary true. When soilders came home they where called murderers, and baby killers.

What the media failed to tell the population, was about the little girls who would run up to a group of soilders and then explode killing all of them.

I cannot imagine a parent putting a bomb on their own child and telling them to run into a group of soilders. There are just parts of this world that make me want to vomit on a regular basis.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of those soilders. I mean one day you hear about you best friend being blown up by an incecent little girl, and the next day you are standing with your weapon drawn and a child is running towards you. Of course you are going to shoot.

Of course, there is the flip side of that. How about the mother who goes to market, and comes back to find out that her village was crispy crittered by a flight of US aircraft using napalm. I am reasonably certain, that would not make you fond of the US, afterwards.

Remember a salient point. These people had been fighting invaders since the 1940's. First it was the Japanese who were going to free the "yellow man" from white supremacy. They get rid of them and the Frenchmen come back, to reassert their dominance again, and they finally oust them at Dien Bien Phu. Then we come along to " make the world safe for democracy". Seven years later, 58,000 US lives, god knows how many tons of bombs, rockets and artillery shells later, we finally leave. How do you think you would feel about that point?

Now, you try to explain this historical timeline to a group of 20 year old kids in a college upper level Eastern Asia geography class, who don't have a clue, where Indochina is and frankly don't care. It makes for interesting discussions in breaks between class.:p

[djcyclone]

Indochina? Where's that at???:p

Regardless of the horrors of war, nothing is ever a suitable excuse for placing a bomb on your child and asking them to run into a group of soilders and set it off.

Those kind of people need to be tied to a pole, and set on fire. No questions asked. Just a little bit of emotion peaking out there, but Oh My God.

I literally shake every time I picture a parent asking their kid to do something like that.

[old_pop2000]

Indochina? Where's that at???:p

Regardless of the horrors of war, nothing is ever a suitable excuse for placing a bomb on your child and asking them to run into a group of soilders and set it off.

Those kind of people need to be tied to a pole, and set on fire. No questions asked. Just a little bit of emotion peaking out there, but Oh My God.

I literally shake every time I picture a parent asking their kid to do something like that.

I would agree. I believe this is a problem that has been faced by all Western cultures when coming into contact with Asian cultures. That difference in viewpoints about life, death etc. I know my friends who returned from Vietnam never understood it, neither did my Dad's generation when they returned from WWII. Kamikaze, banzai charges never made sense. Definitely a cultural gap between the two. I suspect, there still is.

[john964]

I would agree. I believe this is a problem that has been faced by all Western cultures when coming into contact with Asian cultures. That difference in viewpoints about life, death etc. I know my friends who returned from Vietnam never understood it, neither did my Dad's generation when they returned from WWII. Kamikaze, banzai charges never made sense. Definitely a cultural gap between the two. I suspect, there still is.I remeber reading that piror to the chinese intervention in the Korean War the Chinese Politburo asked the PLA generals about the posability of the US retaliating with atomic bombs and the PLA responded "so we lose a few million what of it".

[Ed Rotondaro]

I'm reminded of the helicopter gunner in the movie Full Metal Jacket: "If they run, they're VC. If they stand still, they're well disciplined VC."

Robert, John and Dennis:

I had a major PC problem over the weekend, so I'm catching up on posts (that plus the kids were hogging the computer). Trying to get into the mindset of a combat soldier is difficult unless you've done it and I haven't. Nobody went to war wanting to do what happened at My Lai.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I tend not to watch them also, for two reasons:

1) Too many friends who didn't come back; and

2) Haven't seen one yet that didn't hit you over the head with its political opinions (not always very informed)

I guess even after 30+ years the wound is still too raw for me and I wasn't even in the military.

My stance on the Viet Nam era is to: First and foremost remember my fallen friends; Second thank every veteran I can find; & Third thank the good lord that its over and leave it in the past where it belongs.

Kurt:

Well said old friend. My class was the last to have to register for the draft. My draft card was the single best proof to get into a bar that I ever had.:( Remember everyone that answered the call.

[old_pop2000]

Robert, John and Dennis:

I had a major PC problem over the weekend, so I'm catching up on posts (that plus the kids were hogging the computer). Trying to get into the mindset of a combat soldier is difficult unless you've done it and I haven't. Nobody went to war wanting to do what happened at My Lai.

I would agree with that, and I was never in combat as I have stated. I spent the four years of USAF service on a mountain top or in a desert base. All I have are my contacts with my friends and my dad. I have absolutely no idea what was going through the minds of the soldiers at My Lai. I will say that the draft had much to do with decreasing the quality of leadership in the military. Especially the Army, probably not so much the Marines.

My Lai was a leadership problem, from top to bottom. I would like to hear what Mike says about that. He is probably the best to answer.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I would agree about "We were Soldiers". But it was about the period when were fighting with professional soldiers, not draftees. The First Air Cav was an elite outfit, led by some of the best officers in the Army.

I thought Rambo was ok. A bit much, though. It protrayed all elite Rangers as a bunch of crazed killers--which they weren't.

I had heard that the number of suicides did go up, just like it has in recent years in Iraq. A shame, our kids deserve better.


Dennis and DJ:

I'm a big fan of "We were Soldiers". Shows you that the war was a different than we thought. Amazingly I don't dislike the Vietnamese, they had their reasons to fight. I don't like movies that make soldiers seem like crazed killers. Those would be warriors, not soldiers. Soldiers are disciplined. Soldiers kill warriors. (Paraphrasing David Drake, one of my favorite sci-fi authors. Mike M understands).

[Ed Rotondaro]

Vary true. When soilders came home they where called murderers, and baby killers.

What the media failed to tell the population, was about the little girls who would run up to a group of soilders and then explode killing all of them.

I cannot imagine a parent putting a bomb on their own child and telling them to run into a group of soilders. There are just parts of this world that make me want to vomit on a regular basis.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of those soilders. I mean one day you hear about you best friend being blown up by an incecent little girl, and the next day you are standing with your weapon drawn and a child is running towards you. Of course you are going to shoot.

DJ:

Welcome to the nightmare known as Iraq and Afghanistan. (Ed ducks and hopes Chris won't smack him).

[Ed Rotondaro]

I would agree. I believe this is a problem that has been faced by all Western cultures when coming into contact with Asian cultures. That difference in viewpoints about life, death etc. I know my friends who returned from Vietnam never understood it, neither did my Dad's generation when they returned from WWII. Kamikaze, banzai charges never made sense. Definitely a cultural gap between the two. I suspect, there still is.


Dennis:

One can pray that some of the interconnectivity of the modern world can change mindsets to the point that this won't happen again. But I have had my hopes dashed more than once. Until then the Centurions need to stand on the wall. Here's to the vets that guard us.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I remeber reading that piror to the chinese intervention in the Korean War the Chinese Politburo asked the PLA generals about the posability of the US retaliating with atomic bombs and the PLA responded "so we lose a few million what of it".

John:

That's scary, but apparently the losses in that war made China think twice about direct intervention in Viet Nam. (From "Rolling Thunder in a Gentle Land", Osprey Publishing).

[john964]

John:

That's scary, but apparently the losses in that war made China think twice about direct intervention in Viet Nam. (From "Rolling Thunder in a Gentle Land", Osprey Publishing).According to most sources the PRC sufferd over 1 million KIA and 3-5 milion WIA. Thats enough to give anyone pause. Also don't forget that China suffered more deaths and injured in WWII than all other nations combined.

[asnrobert]

Trying to get into the mindset of a combat soldier is difficult unless you've done it and I haven't. Nobody went to war wanting to do what happened at My Lai.
Like Dennis, I was a Cold War warrior, riding boomers. Recently I was talking with one of my patients who had seen combat in Vietnam. I told him I had served on subs which had it's own risks, but Ild never been in a situation where someone was trying to kill me, and that I couldn't imagine going through something like that.

[asnrobert]

DJ:

Welcome to the nightmare known as Iraq and Afghanistan. (Ed ducks and hopes Chris won't smack him).
Many have tried to draw parallels between Vietnam and our current wars, and I think this one at least is valid. It most wars, your enemy is wearing a uniform so you could tell the difference between him and civilians. But in these wars the enemy is indistinguishable from the civilian populace. So when you see some stranger approaching you, you ask yourself "is that a terrorist or an innocent" and oftentimes it's hard to know until after its too late.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Many have tried to draw parallels between Vietnam and our current wars, and I think this one at least is valid. It most wars, your enemy is wearing a uniform so you could tell the difference between him and civilians. But in these wars the enemy is indistinguishable from the civilian populace. So when you see some stranger approaching you, you ask yourself "is that a terrorist or an innocent" and oftentimes it's hard to know until after its too late.

Robert:

That's what makes an insurrection so difficult to fight. You need to develop really good local intelligence in order to find the people that stand out. Many of skills needed in fighting street crime are relevant to this kind of warfare.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Dennis and DJ:

I'm a big fan of "We were Soldiers". Shows you that the war was a different than we thought. Amazingly I don't dislike the Vietnamese, they had their reasons to fight. I don't like movies that make soldiers seem like crazed killers. Those would be warriors, not soldiers. Soldiers are disciplined. Soldiers kill warriors. (Paraphrasing David Drake, one of my favorite sci-fi authors. Mike M understands).

Hi Ed,

That is a great movie, one of my favorites. It's worth reading Moore's book as in the following days, the NVA sprung a massive ambush on other units from 1st Cav and inflicted severe casualties. I remember the spate of post Vietnam films, but "First Blood" was the worst fro me. I haven't seen a Sylvester Stallone film since.

I went in the Army in Auguat, 1972 and it was a basket case until the late 70s reflecting many of the ills plaguing society and the rigors of fighting an impacable foe in an increasingly unpopular war. It was intimidating to be one of the few people in the Army that hadn't been to Vietnam, even the company clerk had a Combat Infantry Badge. The change to an all volunteer force and good leadership put things back together.

Even good men can feel the corrosive effects of hatred and brutality and do things they might never have envisioned. One of the most shocking things about My Lai was that it was done in the open, in front of witnesses, so you can't help but wonder about other instances. The application of massive fire power in and around civilians can take a cruel toll even if well intentioned, judiciously used or justified militarily. "Surgical strikes" do limit damage and casualties, but the image of that severly burned young Vietnamese child fleeing her napalmed village make for a gruesome comaprison. We have certainly discussed the gray foggy area around what is and what is not a war crime..and it depends on whose frame of reference your using.

I know the vast majority of our military fought bravely and honorably in that crucible and my hat is off to them.

[paladin5]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread.

I have thought of another one that would have been good.

The Battle of Balaclava with Lord Cardigan's Light Brigade.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

That is a great movie, one of my favorites. It's worth reading Moore's book as in the following days, the NVA sprung a massive ambush on other units from 1st Cav and inflicted severe casualties. I remember the spate of post Vietnam films, but "First Blood" was the worst fro me. I haven't seen a Sylvester Stallone film since.

I went in the Army in Auguat, 1972 and it was a basket case until the late 70s reflecting many of the ills plaguing society and the rigors of fighting an impacable foe in an increasingly unpopular war. It was intimidating to be one of the few people in the Army that hadn't been to Vietnam, even the company clerk had a Combat Infantry Badge. The change to an all volunteer force and good leadership put things back together.

Even good men can feel the corrosive effects of hatred and brutality and do things they might never have envisioned. One of the most shocking things about My Lai was that it was done in the open, in front of witnesses, so you can't help but wonder about other instances. The application of massive fire power in and around civilians can take a cruel toll even if well intentioned, judiciously used or justified militarily. "Surgical strikes" do limit damage and casualties, but the image of that severly burned young Vietnamese child fleeing her napalmed village make for a gruesome comaprison. We have certainly discussed the gray foggy area around what is and what is not a war crime..and it depends on whose frame of reference your using.

I know the vast majority of our military fought bravely and honorably in that crucible and my hat is off to them.

Mike:

It was guys like you and Scott and others on this forum that re-built and saved our military. Thank you. Regarding any military attrocities, they are sadly a part of war and the outcome of very stressed individuals who have seen stuff that most of us can't imagine. My 90 year old uncle is very cautious about discussing his experiences as a combat infantryman in WWII.
I know better than to pry.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread.

I have thought of another one that would have been good.

The Battle of Balaclava with Lord Cardigan's Light Brigade.


Mike:

That's another good one.

[Kyle Holgate]

Since we've been talking Jutland in other threads...


My last stand: Coming out and fighting the Grand fleet, I'd be on the bridge of the Battleship Baden in the great Götterdämmerung - the final battle where the High Seas fleet goes out with a bang in 1918

[keschofield]

Since we've been talking Jutland in other threads...


My last stand: Coming out and fighting the Grand fleet, I'd be on the bridge of the Battleship Baden in the great Götterdämmerung - the final battle where the High Seas fleet goes out with a bang in 1918

Kyle,

Götterdämmerung it would have been too. This one strikes home to my Germanic soul. Its my favorite so far.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Kyle,

Götterdämmerung it would have been too. This one strikes home to my Germanic soul. Its my favorite so far.

If your Germanic soul is getting twitchy, maybe it should attend the Battle of Teutoburg Forest...;)

[keschofield]

If your Germanic soul is getting twitchy, maybe it should attend the Battle of Teutoburg Forest...;)

Teutoberger Wald ..... Deutschland 1, Roma 0

[Christian Schwietzke]

Teutoberger Wald ..... Deutschland 1, Roma 0

Not meaning to brag or anything, it also seems to have been one of the few examples of complex plans that went off essentially flawlessly.

[Ed Rotondaro]

If your Germanic soul is getting twitchy, maybe it should attend the Battle of Teutoburg Forest...;)

Christian:

Now that would have been a battle to have been at. But not as a Roman Legionnaire.:eek:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Teutoberger Wald ..... Deutschland 1, Roma 0

Kurt:

Second place is no place in warfare. Or as the US Army says you're not here to die for your country, we don't train losers.