History Channel new series

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

Anyone catch the new History Channel series Battle 360 last night (friday)? Initial episode about the Enterprise in WW II. CGI graphics similar to Dogfights, but fasted paced with lots of cut scenes and not a lot of information. The first hour only got you through the Doolittle Raid, so ther must be more to follow. Sponsored by Enterprise Rent A Car whose CEO served on her.

I found the fast paced style annoying like it was a music video. Very little information on tactics or strategy beyond plane comparisons. The battle scenes were well done, just shot like Saving Private Ryan. For the most part the CGI graphics were excellent and plane paint schemes seemed authentic though teh mixed in real footage was from a dfiierent time frame and did not match. The most glaring error was the Enterprise retaining her bright yellow pre war deck markings and initials.

I hope this means that the History Channel is not going to morph like Court TV did into shallow videos and dramatizations. Are younger folks really entertained and informed by stuff like this?

[old_pop2000]

Hi Guys,

Anyone catch the new History Channel series Battle 360 last night (friday)? Initial episode about the Enterprise in WW II. CGI graphics similar to Dogfights, but fasted paced with lots of cut scenes and not a lot of information. The first hour only got you through the Doolittle Raid, so ther must be more to follow. Sponsored by Enterprise Rent A Car whose CEO served on her.

I found the fast paced style annoying like it was a music video. Very little information on tactics or strategy beyond plane comparisons. The battle scenes were well done, just shot like Saving Private Ryan. For the most part the CGI graphics were excellent and plane paint schemes seemed authentic though teh mixed in real footage was from a dfiierent time frame and did not match. The most glaring error was the Enterprise retaining her bright yellow pre war deck markings and initials.

I hope this means that the History Channel is not going to morph like Court TV did into shallow videos and dramatizations. Are younger folks really entertained and informed by stuff like this?
Darn, missed it. Well, I will check my schedule and set my Media Center PC to record it. I hope it was decent.

I did see some reruns of Dogfight, especially the night fighter episode.

[keschofield]

Yes, I saw it. Like most History Channel productions lately, I was disappointed.

A lot of wargames seem to be going the same route these days as well. Heavy doses of fancy graphics and contrived drama mixed with little or no history or analysis.

I guess I'm getting too picky. At least the History Channel got away from UFO's and monsters for a while.:rolleyes:

[paladin5]

Hi Guys,
I hope this means that the History Channel is not going to morph like Court TV did into shallow videos and dramatizations. Are younger folks really entertained and informed by stuff like this?


Not all of us younger people are entertained be the "reality" tv crap ever puts out now days. in fact the only shows i really watch now days are House, Heros (i am a nerd after all), Battlestar Gallactica, Stargate Atlantis, Dirty Jobs, Myth Busters and some of the stuff history shows. God i miss the good old days before "reality" tv.


*starts complaining and sounding like an old person*

[Ed Rotondaro]

Not all of us younger people are entertained be the "reality" tv crap ever puts out now days. in fact the only shows i really watch now days are House, Heros (i am a nerd after all), Battlestar Gallactica, Stargate Atlantis, Dirty Jobs, Myth Busters and some of the stuff history shows. God i miss the good old days before "reality" tv.


*starts complaining and sounding like an old person*

Mike:

I'm so proud of you bro! I too missed the show, but I did see the promo for it. My sons are fanatics for the Discovery Channel (thank god no more Cartoon network crap!) and love Dirty Jobs, How its Made, Future Weapons, Myth Busters, Smash Lab and Man Against Wild. We can save the next generation against stupidity. Old fart (52+ years ED)

[old_pop2000]

Not all of us younger people are entertained be the "reality" tv crap ever puts out now days. in fact the only shows i really watch now days are House, Heros (i am a nerd after all), Battlestar Gallactica, Stargate Atlantis, Dirty Jobs, Myth Busters and some of the stuff history shows. God i miss the good old days before "reality" tv.


*starts complaining and sounding like an old person*
I miss the original Star Trek series, Combat, Battlestar Galactica, Walt Disney Presents, etc. My wife is a fanatic of Bat Masterson, The Rifleman, and the Big Valley along with Gene Autry. Yuch! I don't know how she can watch Gene Autry.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I miss the original Star Trek series, Combat, Battlestar Galactica, Walt Disney Presents, etc. My wife is a fanatic of Bat Masterson, The Rifleman, and the Big Valley along with Gene Autry. Yuch! I don't know how she can watch Gene Autry.

Dennis:

The Rifleman and Big Valley? Holy cow that brings back memories. Both were favorites of my parents. Original Star Trek rules, if only to Shatner overact LOL!

[Mike Malanaphy]

Dennis:

The Rifleman and Big Valley? Holy cow that brings back memories. Both were favorites of my parents. Original Star Trek rules, if only to Shatner overact LOL!

Hi Guys,

Thank God for TV Land, the cable channel for old shows. : )

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

Thank God for TV Land, the cable channel for old shows. : )

Mike:

Most of those show were better written than the crap we are saddled with today. God what happened to the English language and culture?:confused:

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:

Most of those show were better written than the crap we are saddled with today. God what happened to the English language and culture?:confused:


Hi Ed,

I know the feeling. Can you imagine "Leave it to Beaver today"? Mr Cleaver downsized and turning to alcoholism, Mrs Cleaver stripping to make ends meet, Wally coming out out the closet with Eddie Haskell, and the Beaver finding out how hard it is to successfully put a condom on a cucumber so he can pass into the 6th grade!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

I know the feeling. Can you imagine "Leave it to Beaver today"? Mr Cleaver downsized and turning to alcoholism, Mrs Cleaver stripping to make ends meet, Wally coming out out the closet with Eddie Haskell, and the Beaver finding out how hard it is to successfully put a condom on a cucumber so he can pass into the 6th grade!

Mike:

Hopelessly overcome with mirth!:D Thanks.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

The Rifleman and Big Valley? Holy cow that brings back memories. Both were favorites of my parents. Original Star Trek rules, if only to Shatner overact LOL!
I remember watching the original then the reruns in the service. Great fun.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I remember watching the original then the reruns in the service. Great fun.


Dennis:

Man we really are old farts LMAO!

[john964]

My personal favorites are the Law & Order franchise the CSI franchise and NCIS for current network fair as for oldies. I like MASH Star Treak ST;NG ST;DS9 ST;Voyager, Star Gate SG1 Big Valley Gunsmoke. I find most of todays SitComs insulting to anyone with an IQ higher than room tempature.

[paladin5]

Hi Guys,

Thank God for TV Land, the cable channel for old shows. : )



i wish tv land would show hogans heros again, i first discovered that show when they had a huge marthon of all the episodes, oh well at least they still show mash. now if only i could see all of the finally episode. i keep coming into the one with only the last 5 mins left usually. :(

[Ed Rotondaro]

My personal favorites are the Law & Order franchise the CSI franchise and NCIS for current network fair as for oldies. I like MASH Star Treak ST;NG ST;DS9 ST;Voyager, Star Gate SG1 Big Valley Gunsmoke. I find most of todays SitComs insulting to anyone with an IQ higher than room tempature.

John:

You know what looks like it could be promising is the new Fox show "Amsterdam" about the immortal NYC police detective. At least the writing shows promise. I definitely love the Law and Order shows, especially SVU, even though it deals with disturbing subjects (as a father I find sexual predators the lowest life forms in the world, even below terrorists).

[old_pop2000]

John:

You know what looks like it could be promising is the new Fox show "Amsterdam" about the immortal NYC police detective. At least the writing shows promise. I definitely love the Law and Order shows, especially SVU, even though it deals with disturbing subjects (as a father I find sexual predators the lowest life forms in the world, even below terrorists).
An immortal NYC Police detective? That's a contradiction in terms.

[john964]

John:

You know what looks like it could be promising is the new Fox show "Amsterdam" about the immortal NYC police detective. At least the writing shows promise. I definitely love the Law and Order shows, especially SVU, even though it deals with disturbing subjects (as a father I find sexual predators the lowest life forms in the world, even below terrorists).

Pedophiles and rapest have to be seperated from the general population in prision. If they don't they sometimes take up bungee jumping with bed sheets after making close personal 'friendships' with other inmates.

[Ed Rotondaro]

An immortal NYC Police detective? That's a contradiction in terms.

Dennis:

I checked the show out tonight. It was good! We'll see if the writing holds up.

[asnrobert]

Hi Guys,

Thank God for TV Land, the cable channel for old shows. : )

Yeah, but now even TV Land is going down the "reality TV show" trail with "High School Reunion." And I was channel surfing last night and on A&E there another "reality" show with Gene Simmons of KISS fame driving around the country in an RV hawking some sort of sexual enhancement drug. :rolleyes: It's a shame, A&E used to have some really nice programs. But I guess you have to go after that lowest common denominator....

[txflood]

I miss the original Star Trek series, Combat, Battlestar Galactica, Walt Disney Presents, etc. My wife is a fanatic of Bat Masterson, The Rifleman, and the Big Valley along with Gene Autry. Yuch! I don't know how she can watch Gene Autry.

IMHO I think the new Battlestar Galactica on the SciFi channel is definitely top notch and worth checking out. It is really a much more...hmmm...not sure of the right word....sinister maybe....show than the original and to me much more interesting. If you've missed the new one, the DVDs for the seasons that have already aired are out there.

[Ed Rotondaro]

IMHO I think the new Battlestar Galactica on the SciFi channel is definitely top notch and worth checking out. It is really a much more...hmmm...not sure of the right word....sinister maybe....show than the original and to me much more interesting. If you've missed the new one, the DVDs for the seasons that have already aired are out there.

Hi:

I've heard some good things about that show and will probably consider checking out the DVDs if I can rent them.

[john964]

Hi:

I've heard some good things about that show and will probably consider checking out the DVDs if I can rent them.
Try some of the on-line movie rental companies. I subscribe to one and it is excelent. I like it for all the old TV shows. I can rent compleat seasons like Star Gate SG1 seasons 1-10 IIRC thats 60 DVD's at a rate of 2 or 3 discs a week, I am currently in season 8.

[clacton2]

Hi:

I've heard some good things about that show and will probably consider checking out the DVDs if I can rent them.

Ed,
It is well worth a watch, the box set is available pretty cheap from online auction sites.
Jon:p

[Ed Rotondaro]

Try some of the on-line movie rental companies. I subscribe to one and it is excelent. I like it for all the old TV shows. I can rent compleat seasons like Star Gate SG1 seasons 1-10 IIRC thats 60 DVD's at a rate of 2 or 3 discs a week, I am currently in season 8.

Thanks John, I appreciate that! I think my sons would like Battlestar Galactica. The older one loves Star Trek and the younger one loves Star Wars. And after watching "Future Weapons", they both want assault rifles LOL!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
It is well worth a watch, the box set is available pretty cheap from online auction sites.
Jon:p

Thanks Jon. How's Merrie Olde England?

[clacton2]

Thanks Jon. How's Merrie Olde England?

Hi Ed,
Its cold and windy down south, where I am, at the moment, but the wife and I are going up to the North Midlands this weekend to visit my parents. Going to pack my thermals as its going to be a darn sight colder up there, probably with snow.
Jon:eek:

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

History Channel is replaying the first installment of the Battle 360 series about the Enterprise just before the new episode about Enterprise tonight. The guide this installment will cover Midway. At this rate they'll need at least another episode to cover her career. Hope this one is better than the first.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

History Channel is replaying the first installment of the Battle 360 series about the Enterprise just before the new episode about Enterprise tonight. The guide this installment will cover Midway. At this rate they'll need at least another episode to cover her career. Hope this one is better than the first.


Thanks Mike, I'll definitely want to watch that.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

History Channel is replaying the first installment of the Battle 360 series about the Enterprise just before the new episode about Enterprise tonight. The guide this installment will cover Midway. At this rate they'll need at least another episode to cover her career. Hope this one is better than the first.

Mike:

My sons and I watched the Battle 360 series (two episodes back to back) and had a great time. Then as dessert we got Dogfights covering the fierce air battles over Belgium as part of the Battle of the Bulge. Talk about a great way to spend a Friday night at home with family!

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:

My sons and I watched the Battle 360 series (two episodes back to back) and had a great time. Then as dessert we got Dogfights covering the fierce air battles over Belgium as part of the Battle of the Bulge. Talk about a great way to spend a Friday night at home with family!


Hi Ed,

The Midway episode was very good. I can understand how watching with your kids would make the lack of depth more palatable. Wasn't Dennis's dad the dive bomber pilot? The dive bombing scenes were stunning, like being in the cockpit or the back seat fending off Zeros. Surprised to see Parshall of Shattered Sword as the commentator. Wonder if it was he that clued them into the Japanese carrier decks being empty except for CAP fighters? Reuniting the Enterprise dive bomnber and his pilot so many years later was touching. The Dogfight episode was great too. Looking forwards to next week.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

The Midway episode was very good. I can understand how watching with your kids would make the lack of depth more palatable. Wasn't Dennis's dad the dive bomber pilot? The dive bombing scenes were stunning, like being in the cockpit or the back seat fending off Zeros. Surprised to see Parshall of Shattered Sword as the commentator. Wonder if it was he that clued them into the Japanese carrier decks being empty except for CAP fighters? Reuniting the Enterprise dive bomnber and his pilot so many years later was touching. The Dogfight episode was great too. Looking forwards to next week.

Mike:

Yes I was impressed that Parshall was one of the commentators. Did you catch that glaring error in the first episode? They were describing the characteristics of the heavy cruiser Northampton while she was bombarding the island. They mentioned her armament and stated she carried six torpedo tubes. No US heavy cruiser was equipped with torpedo tubes during WWII. The few that had them when built had them removed in the 1930s.

The first hand accounts of the survivors were really the best part of the show. The meeting between the two vets was very nice. Amazing how many of those guys are still around. They are all in their late 80s at least.

Dennis' dad was a gunner if I recall correctly, not a pilot. I believe he was on the Saratoga? One of the former members of these forums father was a dive bomber pilot on the Enterprise.

[paladin5]

Crap I missed it. I was to busy watching Stargate Atlantis (the season finale), and working one a new mission for NWP.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Crap I missed it. I was to busy watching Stargate Atlantis (the season finale), and working one a new mission for NWP.

Mike:

How does Stargate Atlantis compare to the regular Stargate series?

[clacton2]

Mike:

How does Stargate Atlantis compare to the regular Stargate series?

Ed,
Sorry to jump in, but I like the Atlantis version better than the original, although both are pretty good. Am busy at the moment trying to find the boxsets at a reasonable price, as I'm a real skinflint!! LOL
Jon:D

[john964]

Ed,
Sorry to jump in, but I like the Atlantis version better than the original, although both are pretty good. Am busy at the moment trying to find the boxsets at a reasonable price, as I'm a real skinflint!! LOL
Jon:D
You might try an online auction or one of the online movie rental sites they sell there used DVD's at a fairly steep discount.

[clacton2]

You might try an online auction or one of the online movie rental sites they sell there used DVD's at a fairly steep discount.

Hi,
Thanks, have looked briefly at the online auction sites, but must admit had not thought of going the ex-rental route.
Cheers
Jon:)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Sorry to jump in, but I like the Atlantis version better than the original, although both are pretty good. Am busy at the moment trying to find the boxsets at a reasonable price, as I'm a real skinflint!! LOL
Jon:D

Jon:

I fully appreaciate trying save money on anything since I have two sons to put through college (or university as you Brits would say!). Lost electric power for half of Sunday afternoon, but fortunately it came back on after taking the family out to dinner. I will see about Stargate Atlantis as I like the original show and its premise very much.

[Kyle Holgate]

I was watching Stargate Atlatis too, forgot there was something else on Friday to watch. Drat!

I still find it a bit amusing (and annoying) that Dogfights seems to only deal with situations where the Allies win. You'd think after 60 years a show like that could be objective - and cover things like the first part of the war in Russia or the Blitzkrieg attacks on Poland, the low countries and France. You'd think no Axis force ever won anything - wonder how they got so far into Russia, France, North Africa, Poland, China, the south Pacific, etc - and never won crap? Weird. :rolleyes:

[john964]

I was watching Stargate Atlatis too, forgot there was something else on Friday to watch. Drat!

I still find it a bit amusing (and annoying) that Dogfights seems to only deal with situations where the Allies win. You'd think after 60 years a show like that could be objective - and cover things like the first part of the war in Russia or the Blitzkrieg attacks on Poland, the low countries and France. You'd think no Axis force ever won anything - wonder how they got so far into Russia, France, North Africa, Poland, China, the south Pacific, etc - and never won crap? Weird. :rolleyes:
Kyle they have to cater to a wide audence and a farly ignorant one also not many of the yokals will want to watch the allies loose all the time.

[Kyle Holgate]

Kyle they have to cater to a wide audence and a farly ignorant one also not many of the yokals will want to watch the allies loose all the time.

My view is that if you're gonna do history, do history. Yep, we won the war but not all the battles and I don't see how it would hurt to cover a wider range of subject matter.

[old_pop2000]

My view is that if you're gonna do history, do history. Yep, we won the war but not all the battles and I don't see how it would hurt to cover a wider range of subject matter.
I decided to purchase the 2007 Japanese movie, Yamato with English subtitles. I really want to see the finish to the battle scene on Youtube.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I was watching Stargate Atlatis too, forgot there was something else on Friday to watch. Drat!

I still find it a bit amusing (and annoying) that Dogfights seems to only deal with situations where the Allies win. You'd think after 60 years a show like that could be objective - and cover things like the first part of the war in Russia or the Blitzkrieg attacks on Poland, the low countries and France. You'd think no Axis force ever won anything - wonder how they got so far into Russia, France, North Africa, Poland, China, the south Pacific, etc - and never won crap? Weird. :rolleyes:

Kyle:

Actually they did cover a duel between Israeli pilots and I think it was Syrian jets a while back.

[Ed Rotondaro]

My view is that if you're gonna do history, do history. Yep, we won the war but not all the battles and I don't see how it would hurt to cover a wider range of subject matter.

Kyle:

Maybe something like the raid on the German ball bearing factories that saw 60 B-17s shot down?

[Kyle Holgate]

I decided to purchase the 2007 Japanese movie, Yamato with English subtitles. I really want to see the finish to the battle scene on Youtube.

I've been trying to find that in US DVD format and haven't been able to. If it's the movie I'm thinking of there isn't a battle as such in it - other than between Yamato and a swarm of aircraft with the end result being the historical one.

I ordered the Mahan to Pearl Harbor book by the way. Depending on when it arrives I think I'll take it with me on my DC vacation.

[Kyle Holgate]

Kyle:

Maybe something like the raid on the German ball bearing factories that saw 60 B-17s shot down?

That would be interesting. The Channel dash of the twins and Prinz Eugen would be a good one, Operation Barbarossa had plenty of air combat (though most of the soviet airforce was lost on the ground). The Nurmberg raid by the RAF - they could follow up with the Hamburg raid using window to give them a win at the end. Some of the dogfights over Africa - the back and forth of air power would be intersting, or Malta.

I can think of quite a few battles which may have specific encounters they could cover.

[paladin5]

Mike:

How does Stargate Atlantis compare to the regular Stargate series?


basicly the same but with different people and bad guys. so if you liked SG-1 you will probably like atlantis, if you didn't like SG-1 you won't care to atlantis either.

[old_pop2000]

Apparently, the new series on History Channel, Battle 360, had the story of the five G3M that attacked the Enterprise during Wotje Island Raid.

The attack was conducted by five G3M Nell bombers from the 24th Air flotilla. They were led by LT. Nakai. The group was stationed at Taroa Island. After the raids by the Enterprise air group on Wotje and Taroa, Lt. Nakai wanted to land back on Roi Island to reload with torpedoes that were not available on Taroa, his main base. He had just attempted to bomb the escort cruiser USS Chester. However, he was refused because of the damage to Roi and its facilities. He then flew back to his regular base, refueled and rearmed. Actually, Nakai had had eight aircraft, but only five were still serviceable after the attacks on the Chester.

He departed with five Nells at 1210 hrs, spotting the US task force at 1330 hrs. northeast of Wotje Island.

Enterprise did have CAP patrols up, but they did not have IFF and as such, every aircraft on the CXAM radars had to be investigated by the F4F's, as per the FIDO, Lt. Commander Ham Dow. The incoming bombers greatly benefitted from the confusion in the air with the returning air groups from the attacks coupled with the Japanese bombers and the complicated IFF manual procedures in place. The bombers were noticed by a Lt. Rawie, flying an F4F-3, but he lost them in the low clouds. Ham Dow did send two sections of F4F's in the direction of the bombers spotted by Rawie, they found the bombers at 10000 ft, 15 miles from the ships but gun failures prevented full attacks.

Nakai, upon being attacked began a gentle dive known as a glide bomb attack. This caused the Grummans problems because the bombers were steadily gaining speed, in the process.

Finally, after Nakai's aircraft was shot up, the Nells emerged at 6000 ft near the Enterprise and the TF opened up with AAA, but the bombers were making 250 knts. Unfortunately, doctrine stated that upon reaching a zone where shipboard AAA was firing, the fighters had to pull off the targets.

Nakai opened the formation into a very loose V and all aircraft would drop simultaneously. Captain Murray of the Enterprise spotted the bombers coming in from the starboard bow, rang for 30 knots and ordered the Big E's rudder hard left and reversed in order to throw the ship out of its former track. Nakai's bombers pulled out at 1500 ft over the carrier, and most bombs fell harmlessly, one striking 30 ft to port igniting a blaze on the Enterprise.

After passing the ship, Nakai's aircraft turned to crash dive, due to the fact that he could not make it home. He attacked from astern but was engaged by light AAA. Almost suddenly, the carrier heeled sharply to starboard but the bomber was unable to track. Nakai's starboard wing scraped the port edge of the flight deck opposite the island, tore off the tail of an SBD. The wing was ripped and deposited on the flight deck spraying avgas but the rest of the aircraft dived into the water. The SBD's rear guns were manned during this whole episode.

After the episode, the deck was respotted and four F4F's of McClusky's were launched as replacement CAP. Four of Nakai's bombers made it home.

Two of the remaining bombers, rearmed, made another horizontal attack at 1557 hrs with no results.

Does this account match the information in the episode?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Apparently, the new series on History Channel, Battle 360, had the story of the five G3M that attacked the Enterprise during Wotje Island Raid.

The attack was conducted by five G3M Nell bombers from the 24th Air flotilla. They were led by LT. Nakai. The group was stationed at Taroa Island. After the raids by the Enterprise air group on Wotje and Taroa, Lt. Nakai wanted to land back on Roi Island to reload with torpedoes that were not available on Taroa, his main base. He had just attempted to bomb the escort cruiser USS Chester. However, he was refused because of the damage to Roi and its facilities. He then flew back to his regular base, refueled and rearmed. Actually, Nakai had had eight aircraft, but only five were still serviceable after the attacks on the Chester.

He departed with five Nells at 1210 hrs, spotting the US task force at 1330 hrs. northeast of Wotje Island.

Enterprise did have CAP patrols up, but they did not have IFF and as such, every aircraft on the CXAM radars had to be investigated by the F4F's, as per the FIDO, Lt. Commander Ham Dow. The incoming bombers greatly benefitted from the confusion in the air with the returning air groups from the attacks coupled with the Japanese bombers and the complicated IFF manual procedures in place. The bombers were noticed by a Lt. Rawie, flying an F4F-3, but he lost them in the low clouds. Ham Dow did send two sections of F4F's in the direction of the bombers spotted by Rawie, they found the bombers at 10000 ft, 15 miles from the ships but gun failures prevented full attacks.

Nakai, upon being attacked began a gentle dive known as a glide bomb attack. This caused the Grummans problems because the bombers were steadily gaining speed, in the process.

Finally, after Nakai's aircraft was shot up, the Nells emerged at 6000 ft near the Enterprise and the TF opened up with AAA, but the bombers were making 250 knts. Unfortunately, doctrine stated that upon reaching a zone where shipboard AAA was firing, the fighters had to pull off the targets.

Nakai opened the formation into a very loose V and all aircraft would drop simultaneously. Captain Murray of the Enterprise spotted the bombers coming in from the starboard bow, rang for 30 knots and ordered the Big E's rudder hard left and reversed in order to throw the ship out of its former track. Nakai's bombers pulled out at 1500 ft over the carrier, and most bombs fell harmlessly, one striking 30 ft to port igniting a blaze on the Enterprise.

After passing the ship, Nakai's aircraft turned to crash dive, due to the fact that he could not make it home. He attacked from astern but was engaged by light AAA. Almost suddenly, the carrier heeled sharply to starboard but the bomber was unable to track. Nakai's starboard wing scraped the port edge of the flight deck opposite the island, tore off the tail of an SBD. The wing was ripped and deposited on the flight deck spraying avgas but the rest of the aircraft dived into the water. The SBD's rear guns were manned during this whole episode.

After the episode, the deck was respotted and four F4F's of McClusky's were launched as replacement CAP. Four of Nakai's bombers made it home.

Two of the remaining bombers, rearmed, made another horizontal attack at 1557 hrs with no results.

Does this account match the information in the episode?

Dennis:

I don't recall if they depicted that attack on the Big E. Maybe Mike M does? They were concentrating on Enterprise's offensive actions.

[old_pop2000]

:
I've been trying to find that in US DVD format and haven't been able to. If it's the movie I'm thinking of there isn't a battle as such in it - other than between Yamato and a swarm of aircraft with the end result being the historical one.

I ordered the Mahan to Pearl Harbor book by the way. Depending on when it arrives I think I'll take it with me on my DC vacation.
Great! I am sure you will pick up information and ideas that I missed. My Edward Miller book should be here today on the economic issues, so we should have everything covered and be smarter. Hope springs eternal.:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

:
Great! I am sure you will pick up information and ideas that I missed. My Edward Miller book should be here today on the economic issues, so we should have everything covered and be smarter. Hope springs eternal.:D

Dennis:

I read some on-line reviews of the Mahan book. One reviewer was critical of it as the author avoiding any hard questions about Japan's starting the Pacific war. Another reviewer (Richard Worth, a Navweaps moderator and publilshed naval writer) gave it a more favorable view. What do you think its strengths versus weaknesses are?

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I read some on-line reviews of the Mahan book. One reviewer was critical of it as the author avoiding any hard questions about Japan's starting the Pacific war. Another reviewer (Richard Worth, a Navweaps moderator and publilshed naval writer) gave it a more favorable view. What do you think its strengths versus weaknesses are?
He states at the end, that the Navy's road to Pearl Harbor can best be studied in terms of a failure of.... or lack ... of leadership. Simple and straightforward. He states that the Japanese failed in crises management.

He does not make, excuses for the action. He describes it and makes comments as to what might have been with alternative actions.

As to the issue of hard questions, what hard question? He answers the who, what, when where and why of the Pearl Harbor and the march toward war. What other hard questions could he ask or answer? This was not a sociological study of the Japanese psyche. It was a history of a period.

Most reviewers want the Japanese and their authors to beg our forgiveness and grovel at our feet, for the action. Well, we can't find out what happened without good objective historiography based on actual remaining documents. This is what, I feel, Asado attempted to do.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Apparently, the new series on History Channel, Battle 360, had the story of the five G3M that attacked the Enterprise during Wotje Island Raid.

The attack was conducted by five G3M Nell bombers from the 24th Air flotilla. They were led by LT. Nakai. The group was stationed at Taroa Island. After the raids by the Enterprise air group on Wotje and Taroa, Lt. Nakai wanted to land back on Roi Island to reload with torpedoes that were not available on Taroa, his main base. He had just attempted to bomb the escort cruiser USS Chester. However, he was refused because of the damage to Roi and its facilities. He then flew back to his regular base, refueled and rearmed. Actually, Nakai had had eight aircraft, but only five were still serviceable after the attacks on the Chester.

He departed with five Nells at 1210 hrs, spotting the US task force at 1330 hrs. northeast of Wotje Island.

Enterprise did have CAP patrols up, but they did not have IFF and as such, every aircraft on the CXAM radars had to be investigated by the F4F's, as per the FIDO, Lt. Commander Ham Dow. The incoming bombers greatly benefitted from the confusion in the air with the returning air groups from the attacks coupled with the Japanese bombers and the complicated IFF manual procedures in place. The bombers were noticed by a Lt. Rawie, flying an F4F-3, but he lost them in the low clouds. Ham Dow did send two sections of F4F's in the direction of the bombers spotted by Rawie, they found the bombers at 10000 ft, 15 miles from the ships but gun failures prevented full attacks.

Nakai, upon being attacked began a gentle dive known as a glide bomb attack. This caused the Grummans problems because the bombers were steadily gaining speed, in the process.

Finally, after Nakai's aircraft was shot up, the Nells emerged at 6000 ft near the Enterprise and the TF opened up with AAA, but the bombers were making 250 knts. Unfortunately, doctrine stated that upon reaching a zone where shipboard AAA was firing, the fighters had to pull off the targets.

Nakai opened the formation into a very loose V and all aircraft would drop simultaneously. Captain Murray of the Enterprise spotted the bombers coming in from the starboard bow, rang for 30 knots and ordered the Big E's rudder hard left and reversed in order to throw the ship out of its former track. Nakai's bombers pulled out at 1500 ft over the carrier, and most bombs fell harmlessly, one striking 30 ft to port igniting a blaze on the Enterprise.

After passing the ship, Nakai's aircraft turned to crash dive, due to the fact that he could not make it home. He attacked from astern but was engaged by light AAA. Almost suddenly, the carrier heeled sharply to starboard but the bomber was unable to track. Nakai's starboard wing scraped the port edge of the flight deck opposite the island, tore off the tail of an SBD. The wing was ripped and deposited on the flight deck spraying avgas but the rest of the aircraft dived into the water. The SBD's rear guns were manned during this whole episode.

After the episode, the deck was respotted and four F4F's of McClusky's were launched as replacement CAP. Four of Nakai's bombers made it home.

Two of the remaining bombers, rearmed, made another horizontal attack at 1557 hrs with no results.

Does this account match the information in the episode?

Hi Guys,

The attack was well depicted in the first episode. Pretty good description of the attack and the graphics were excellent, especialy the crash diving attempt where an SBD gunner jumped into tehrear seat of his plane on the flight deck to add his weight of fire. The bomber lost control and half rolled as it crossed the deck, the wing cut through the SBD the sailor was firing from before crashing into the sea. The sailor was unharmed, but was killed by Japanese sailors along with his pilot after they were fished out of the sea at Midway.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

Last night's episode covered Enterprise at the Battle of the Eastern Solomons. Again some of CGI graphics were breathtaking, especially the Japanese dive bombers, but the cut editing is very annoying. Their graphics folks must look a limited number of photos to use. Last night, the battle featured North Carolina's combat debut in Enterprise's screen. She was modelled in post war haze gray with with white bow numbers and New Jersey's one of bow antenna. The ship and her brave crew deserve a mini series like this to have their story told but it's almost cartoon like at times. This must be a labor of love by the guy who owns Enterpeise Rent a car. He flew off her deck and is paying the freight for the series. Named his company after her.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Guys,

Last night's episode covered Enterprise at the Battle of the Eastern Solomons. Again some of CGI graphics were breathtaking, especially the Japanese dive bombers, but the cut editing is very annoying. Their graphics folks must look a limited number of photos to use. Last night, the battle featured North Carolina's combat debut in Enterprise's screen. She was modelled in post war haze gray with with white bow numbers and New Jersey's one of bow antenna. The ship and her brave crew deserve a mini series like this to have their story told but it's almost cartoon like at times. This must be a labor of love by the guy who owns Enterpeise Rent a car. He flew off her deck and is paying the freight for the series. Named his company after her.
I watched it last night, graphics and depictions were great.

Question about the battle, what was missing from the Japanese attack and why?

[Kyle Holgate]

I watched it last night, graphics and depictions were great.

Question about the battle, what was missing from the Japanese attack and why?

I was particularly amused by the "Heavy Frigate" Vincinnes. The other one I found interesting is how - if you watch the sequence of the wildcat shooting at the Betty - the target changes into different aircraft several times. Not a bad show I suppose, and it was nice to see what Mr. Parshall looks like. I've been bugging him off and on for about 10 years now, heh heh.

[old_pop2000]

I was particularly amused by the "Heavy Frigate" Vincinnes. The other one I found interesting is how - if you watch the sequence of the wildcat shooting at the Betty - the target changes into different aircraft several times. Not a bad show I suppose, and it was nice to see what Mr. Parshall looks like. I've been bugging him off and on for about 10 years now, heh heh.
One minor issue. It was Saratoga's air group led by Lt. Commander Don Felt in an SBD that hit Ryujo, not Enterprise. It was Bombing Three, my dad's squadron that went in second, hitting Ryujo with three bombs.

Enterprise's scout group attacked Shokaku, then she sent another attack group against Ryujo, but they did not find her.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I was particularly amused by the "Heavy Frigate" Vincinnes. The other one I found interesting is how - if you watch the sequence of the wildcat shooting at the Betty - the target changes into different aircraft several times. Not a bad show I suppose, and it was nice to see what Mr. Parshall looks like. I've been bugging him off and on for about 10 years now, heh heh.

Kyle:

How about the CA Northampton being equipped with torpedoes? Hope Parshall didn't have anything to do with that segment.

[Warship NWS]

I agree with the general consensus about the most recent "Battle 360" show.. there were several flaws. It seemed a lot more adhocly thrown together then the Midway edition which was the best one so far. The one redeeming quality was the information given by the actual crew members of the carrier.

[Kyle Holgate]

I agree with the general consensus about the most recent "Battle 360" show.. there were several flaws. It seemed a lot more adhocly thrown together then the Midway edition which was the best one so far. The one redeeming quality was the information given by the actual crew members of the carrier.

It never fails to strike me how - even after 60 years, the emotions of what the ol' guys went through still have raw edges. I fully admit that I get a tear or two in my eyes too to think of the hell they saw and endured - in some ways probably worse for the survivors than for those killed. We can get pretty clinical in our discussions but I do think it is a good thing to always recall beyond all else - war is Hell.

[Saffron]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~

[old_pop2000]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~
I agree, but only if educators will ensure that the students will watch them in an educational environment and discuss what they have seen and be provided with corrections to the information that is presented. My interest in history over the last 60 years, was inspired by programs like Victory At Sea. Some mistakes in detail can be explained but will not detract from the value of the program. Possibly if more educators spoke out to these channels, about their value, we would see more, accurate depictions of history.

[William Miller]

I will agree with Saffron on this subject, but with a minor extension added to what she has stated.

Two things come to mind as far as these minor errors go:

1) The vast, vast majority of the public who watch these shows have no idea at all that there are minor errors (such as those shown) in the show, and thus enjoyment of the show will not suffer because of such minor flaws (for the great bulk of the audience at least).

2) However, I dare say that the greater majority of educators also do not possess a sufficient level of knowledge of naval warfare of this period to notice these errors as well (Saffron being an exception to this rule :)) -- this is expected, as we are speaking about a rather niche subject requiring specialized knowledge and experience to catch such minor items, and certainly should not be considered a fault for educators in general. For example, I would likely not notice minor errors in a program that went into a modicum of detail on how to properly perform a Coronary Artery Bypass Graft, as my knowledge in this area is only 'general' at best.

I do agree that it is best that these errors are caught in pre-production, but overall I think they do not significantly detract from the enjoyment or the experience of watching them. As Saffron also pointed out: the more positive exposure the general public has to these types of shows the more likely our favorite hobby (and business for some of us :)) will keep going, or even improve.

[Kyle Holgate]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~

I think that our favorite past time is to nit-pick. As you say though, to find little things like that really don't detract from the value of the show itself. I typically only get really annoyed when something totally misleading or down right wrong is reported to have happened. I have learned over time that just because something is in a book or on TV doesn't make it true. Many haven't figured that out yet - and in particular take a TV show on the history channel as "gospel". As long as your students are running off to learn more, then they are well served. Don't take anyone's word for anything if you can help it - go do some digging and find out what you can for yourself!
I got interested in WW2 history due to Victory at Sea and the old BBC show - the World at War. These (and others) got me energized to find out more for myself. I applaud anything that gets people thinking - kids or adults. I am of the view that far too many people go through life not learning or thinking about much of anything. Their loss.

[Warship NWS]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~

Saffy,

Anyone can produce entertainment through the use of historical background but to truely educate people about history there needs to be some level of responsible historical accuracy. Example, calling a cruiser - which in itself is critical for any level of understanding of how such a ship operated at sea - a frigate gives a completely incorrect perception of its role in any contemporary naval force of WW2. Frigates of WW2 did not typically bombard enemy shores, operate as blue water naval warships, etc.. they mostly acted as coastal or ASW patrols, and they never carried heavy naval artillery. One of the problems of our general society is that since entertainment has become more important then education the general IQ regarding historical context has dropped considerably over the past several decades.

I applaud the concept of bringing in more interest to the military genre but it needs to be tempered with as much reasonable accuracy as possible, note I did not say as much detail as possible as that can be brought about through the interest of digging further into the facts and history of the military topics.

I hope this makes sense as to my stance on this topic. BTW, this would be a great topic for another thread.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~

Hi Saffron,

I would certainly agree with you that such shows could be great for stimulating discussions about history. I sympathize with teachers today trying to match the production and entertainment value of ipods, TV, and video games to compete with kids' attention spans. I sort of suspect that television is one of the primary causes of those sort attention spans by virtue of the way it overstimulates the nervous system. Perhaps that is why I find the editing style of quick cuts so annoying and a barrier to thinking about anything at less than the speed of light. I'm not trying to paint myself as a deep thinker or an intellectual, but I have seen the decline of education in this country over the last two generations and by today's standards, I would be one. Critical thinking has been greatly devalued in our society. I would agree that such nit picks about details may not detract from the overall educational value, but I don't want to see Martha Washington in a mini skirt either.

There are huge issues about how WW II is relevant to our world today and if a show like this is a gateway to deeper analysis, that's all the better. I know that organizations such as the History Channel and others have to garner a wider audience to stay on the air and that can lead to difficult decisions of content versus action. But at some point, you have to have substance. That's why I have not switched form computer simulations to video games.

[Warship NWS]

Hey Mike, drop a post like your last reply here;

http://forums.navalwarfare.net/showthread.php?t=112

We moved the "history vs entertainment" topic to that thread. ;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

It never fails to strike me how - even after 60 years, the emotions of what the ol' guys went through still have raw edges. I fully admit that I get a tear or two in my eyes too to think of the hell they saw and endured - in some ways probably worse for the survivors than for those killed. We can get pretty clinical in our discussions but I do think it is a good thing to always recall beyond all else - war is Hell.

Kyle:

I agree. There is a reason why they are referred to as the Greatest Generation. My wife's dad joined the USN in Jan 1941 and served thru to the end. Met his wife on leave at the Brooklyn Navy Yard and married her a year later. When I talk to the members of my father's veteran's post, I see these 80 year old men, not the 20 year guys that saved the world.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Normally I don't jump into your discussions since I have neither the knowledge or the experience you folks have in military matters. I do read them, however, and learn quite a bit ... especially trying to find good books to read (I just started John Toland's "The Rising Sun").

However, as an educator, I'd like to say that I applaud shows like Battle 360 and Dogfights. There's nothing better to get the kiddos truly excited about WWII than action-packed shows like these. While errors such as the wrong flight deck paint or the Vincennes having torpedo tubes are no doubt irksome to the real history hounds, I find them a small price to pay if students are running to the library to read as much as they can about the war.

And since naval wargames are NWS's bread and butter, who knows? Perhaps these shows will inspire a rekindling of computer wargaming interest.

~Saffy~

Saffy:

Are you the same person who used to post way back on the Yahoo forums when I first joined? If so welcome back! If not welcome aboard anyway. See I covered all the angles here.

[Saffron]

Are you the same person who used to post way back on the Yahoo forums when I first joined? If so welcome back! If not welcome aboard anyway. See I covered all the angles here.


Yep I'm the same one. I've been lurking around almost from the beginning. :D

When I first joined, NWS was still WDP and the fleet command add-on only had A-10s, B-52s, and maybe a handful of other aircraft.

[Saffron]

It never fails to strike me how - even after 60 years, the emotions of what the ol' guys went through still have raw edges. I fully admit that I get a tear or two in my eyes too to think of the hell they saw and endured


There are some interviews I can't watch without a readily accesible box of Kleen-Ex. I have nothing but the deepest respect and admiration for our WWII vets, the kind that simply can't be put into words.

[Warship NWS]

Yep I'm the same one. I've been lurking around almost from the beginning. :D

When I first joined, NWS was still WDP and the fleet command add-on only had A-10s, B-52s, and maybe a handful of other aircraft.

Yep.. your a NWS veteran. ;) I still remember your posting on the YG forums when you asked if you were the "only woman that liked to play with the big guns [of battleships]" ;)

Needless to say.. not too many men wanted to answer that post. LOL! ;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Yep I'm the same one. I've been lurking around almost from the beginning. :D

When I first joined, NWS was still WDP and the fleet command add-on only had A-10s, B-52s, and maybe a handful of other aircraft.


Saffy:

Well it's great to hear from you again!:)

[Ed Rotondaro]

He states at the end, that the Navy's road to Pearl Harbor can best be studied in terms of a failure of.... or lack ... of leadership. Simple and straightforward. He states that the Japanese failed in crises management.

He does not make, excuses for the action. He describes it and makes comments as to what might have been with alternative actions.

As to the issue of hard questions, what hard question? He answers the who, what, when where and why of the Pearl Harbor and the march toward war. What other hard questions could he ask or answer? This was not a sociological study of the Japanese psyche. It was a history of a period.

Most reviewers want the Japanese and their authors to beg our forgiveness and grovel at our feet, for the action. Well, we can't find out what happened without good objective historiography based on actual remaining documents. This is what, I feel, Asado attempted to do.

Dennis:

Since you mentioned this book on a more recent thread, I went back and examined the on-line review that had some criticism of the book. The reviewer felt that the author never answers why Japan went to war. He felt that the author avoided any such analysis that could be seen as offensive to Japanese readers. No I haven't read this book and another reviewer liked it a lot. The reviwer admits that he has read everything he could find on this subject, so possibly he had higher expectations of this book? He also felt that the book was a dull read even for someone interested in the subject. Again that's subjective and hard to quantify.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

Since you mentioned this book on a more recent thread, I went back and examined the on-line review that had some criticism of the book. The reviewer felt that the author never answers why Japan went to war. He felt that the author avoided any such analysis that could be seen as offensive to Japanese readers. No I haven't read this book and another reviewer liked it a lot. The reviwer admits that he has read everything he could find on this subject, so possibly he had higher expectations of this book? He also felt that the book was a dull read even for someone interested in the subject. Again that's subjective and hard to quantify.

Mr. Asado's book "examines the strategic dilemma facing the Japanese navy during the 1920's and 1930's against the background of advancing weapon technology and the increasing doubt expressed abouit the relavancy of battleships in Japan. He also analyzes the decisions that led war with the United States- namely, the 1936 withdrawal from naval treaties, the conclusion of the Tripartite Pact in September 1940, and the armed advance into south Indochina in July 1941-- in the context of bureaucratic struggles between the army and navy to gain supremacy." This is better written than I can provide. This book's focus is on how Alfred Thayer Mahan can be traced thoughout Japanese decision-making in the time period discussed.

As to dull reading, this is not an exciting sea story, or narrative about ships, planes and tanks. The subject of diplomacy and governmental as well as military high level planning is by nature, dull and boring. However, for someone, truly interested in being led through the thought process of the Japanese officials in the years, prior to the start of the war, this book accomplishes this.

This is it's value to me, to give me a mindset on how Japanese naval and civilian authorities proceeded along the path to war.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Mr. Asado's book "examines the strategic dilemma facing the Japanese navy during the 1920's and 1930's against the background of advancing weapon technology and the increasing doubt expressed abouit the relavancy of battleships in Japan. He also analyzes the decisions that led war with the United States- namely, the 1936 withdrawal from naval treaties, the conclusion of the Tripartite Pact in September 1940, and the armed advance into south Indochina in July 1941-- in the context of bureaucratic struggles between the army and navy to gain supremacy." This is better written than I can provide. This book's focus is on how Alfred Thayer Mahan can be traced thoughout Japanese decision-making in the time period discussed.

As to dull reading, this is not an exciting sea story, or narrative about ships, planes and tanks. The subject of diplomacy and governmental as well as military high level planning is by nature, dull and boring. However, for someone, truly interested in being led through the thought process of the Japanese officials in the years, prior to the start of the war, this book accomplishes this.

This is it's value to me, to give me a mindset on how Japanese naval and civilian authorities proceeded along the path to war.

Dennis:

The reviewer who liked the book (Richard Worth who moderates over at Navweaps) said it works best in conjunction with Kaigun by Peattie and Evans. I have kaigun and started reading it awhile back. It's very well written and covers some of the same subject matter but with more emphasis on the effects of technological change in the IJN.