Dangerouse Waters

[djcyclone]

Hay, any chance you guys will ever play with DW like you have messed with FC?

I mean that would be pretty cool, if you guys could modify the OHP class to be say, and Arleigh Burk, or a Tico.

It would also be cool if some of the ships that are in the 19.0 Fleet Command, would be in DW allowing the player to engage them, or run away from some of them.

I have always wanted to take an Akula up against say the Nautilus.

[Warship NWS]

FSP and NWP were our final addon projects for non-NWS published titles. All of our future plans are now geared towards our own internal computer and board wargame productions.

Thanks.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hay, any chance you guys will ever play with DW like you have messed with FC?

I mean that would be pretty cool, if you guys could modify the OHP class to be say, and Arleigh Burk, or a Tico.

It would also be cool if some of the ships that are in the 19.0 Fleet Command, would be in DW allowing the player to engage them, or run away from some of them.

I have always wanted to take an Akula up against say the Nautilus.

DJ:

What is or was Dangerous Waters? I assume the game is no longer being supported by the company that made it? Happy Thanksgiving.

[Mart]

DJ:

What is or was Dangerous Waters? I assume the game is no longer being supported by the company that made it? Happy Thanksgiving.

Hi Ed

It's a simulation made by Sonalysts (who made several well known and respected modern sub sims) and is a simulation of modern submarine/antisubmarine warfare. It involves several models of sub, and a couple of models of frigate/ helo/ and Orion patrol plane. It's very highly thought of, and SHAME on you!! :D

It's still readily available and also on sale at the moment for less than 15 bucks. I've looked at the NWS shop and they don't seem to stock it. I don't know if I am allowed to give links to sellers or not. If it helps, you can go to the best known submarine fansite where there IS a link to a sales site. Sonalysts site may have info also.

The boxed version looks great. BUT - more importantly, if anybody is selling the manual, then get it! The manual is fantastic but is about 600 pages thick. Be careful though - the boxed version doesn't come with the paper manual anymore. You have to buy it separately, but there may still be deals to buy them both together. Of course, I have the boxed version and the monstrous manual, which I'll happily sell you for $1000.00! ;)

In addition there is a fansite (get the details from the above sub sim site or Google) which has a lot of scenarios and also campaigns (including a full "Red Storm Rising" campaign)

Although it's a "simulation", it doesn't involve any hand-eye coordination. You even can "fly" the helo and the Orion by just giving them instructions if you want.

Hope that helps.

Take care

Martin :)

[Mart]

OOPS!!!

Sorry Ed. Forget buying my copy & manual for a fortune. I just remembered that I donated Dangerous Waters and a few other games to my local Red Cross charity shop and helped them decide a good price to sell them for.

Sorry about that mon ami. :rolleyes:

Cheers again

Martin

[Warship NWS]

It's still readily available and also on sale at the moment for less than 15 bucks. I've looked at the NWS shop and they don't seem to stock it. I don't know if I am allowed to give links to sellers or not. If it helps, you can go to the best known submarine fansite where there IS a link to a sales site. Sonalysts site may have info also.

Eh really.. can't find it on our store? ;)

DANGEROUS WATERS NWS STORE LISTING (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/dawa.html) << See this?

Also.. its on sale right now for $9.99 on our store. BTW, if you can't find something on our store - ask - as either (a) I can get it via special ordering it and/or adding it to our store (if an item exists chances are I can find it) or (b) I can find it for you if you cannot. I did it by using the "search" box on the left column of our store website. Showed right up - plus it was in the naval combat section where it belonged. ;)

Thanks.

[Ed Rotondaro]

OOPS!!!

Sorry Ed. Forget buying my copy & manual for a fortune. I just remembered that I donated Dangerous Waters and a few other games to my local Red Cross charity shop and helped them decide a good price to sell them for.

Sorry about that mon ami. :rolleyes:

Cheers again

Martin

Hi Martin:

Thanks for the info and don't worry, I could probably track down a copy of the game. I am not as up to speed on modern naval titles which is why I usually solicit the advice of members of the forums who are familiar with the titles. Well it's Thanksgiving night here and we are all stuffed with food and are relaxing. Hope all is well over in England with you and yours.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Eh really.. can't find it on our store? ;)

DANGEROUS WATERS NWS STORE LISTING (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/dawa.html) << See this?

Also.. its on sale right now for $9.99 on our store. BTW, if you can't find something on our store - ask - as either (a) I can get it via special ordering it and/or adding it to our store (if an item exists chances are I can find it) or (b) I can find it for you if you cannot. I did it by using the "search" box on the left column of our store website. Showed right up - plus it was in the naval combat section where it belonged. ;)

Thanks.


Chris:

How does if compare to say Harpoon?

[Warship NWS]

Chris:

How does if compare to say Harpoon?

Different game designs entirely.. first person simulation where you can operate a few naval platforms vs a real time naval tactical combat wargame that allows you to command hundreds of combat units.

[djcyclone]

You guys ought to play with this and make some upgrades. To be absolutley truthfull, I am dissapointed with Sonalyist.

They created the basic layout for commanding a surface ship, but then they only give you the OHP. I mean they could have easily made the Arleigh Burk, and Tico available, but it seems they got lazy.

You said that you will only work on your own game titles from this point on. Maybe you can create a Surface Command game using Dangerouse Waters as a guide?

Just a thought.

[Mart]

Eh really.. can't find it on our store? ;)

DANGEROUS WATERS NWS STORE LISTING (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/dawa.html) << See this?

Also.. its on sale right now for $9.99 on our store. BTW, if you can't find something on our store - ask - as either (a) I can get it via special ordering it and/or adding it to our store (if an item exists chances are I can find it) or (b) I can find it for you if you cannot. I did it by using the "search" box on the left column of our store website. Showed right up - plus it was in the naval combat section where it belonged. ;)

Thanks.

Hi Chris

Sorry about that! I'd never have posted my buying suggestions if I'd seen it. I did look, but this is just further proof that I am a complete dork!

If anyone wants to buy it from you (which I recommend to anyone interested in modern naval warfare) then maybe they ought to ask you if you're able to get the rather brilliant manual.

So, my apologies again.

As for why I disposed of my copy, I discovered that I find it hard to play any game of conflict which is set in modern times. It reminds me too much of what I see on the news. When Harpoon (a game I just adored) first came out, it was a very different world. The game simulated situations which would hopefully never, ever, come to pass. One day, though, I discovered myself bombing the hell out of Tripoli, and I don't think I played since. That said, I think Harpoon, and Dangerous Waters are truly great games. I hope you get plenty of orders for both.

Take care

Martin

[Warship NWS]

Harpoon3 is still my all time favorite modern naval wargame. ;)

[Warship NWS]

Maybe you can create a Surface Command game using Dangerouse Waters as a guide?



We are considering some PC modern naval combat designs at a later date. We are however working on a board game design right now for publication around Q1-Q2 of 2009.

[djcyclone]

Harpoon3 is still my all time favorite modern naval wargame. ;)

I have never plaid Harpoon 3, but I have seen pictures of it. It does not provide a 3D video of each platform like Fleet Command does. Or does it?

Also, does it have every unit in it, and does it allow you to create your own missions like Fleet Command does?

[Christian Schwietzke]

I have never plaid Harpoon 3, but I have seen pictures of it. It does not provide a 3D video of each platform like Fleet Command does. Or does it?

No. It does have pictures of most units, as far as I remember. (I haven´t touched it for some time)


Also, does it have every unit in it, and does it allow you to create your own missions like Fleet Command does?

Not every unit. It has an awful crapload of units, though - if you pardon my blunt speech.

And there is a scenario editor. Is that what you mean by "create your own missions"? Because Harpoon 3 also lets you set up missions when playing a scenario, and assign units to that mission, to automate the repetitive operations.

[Mart]

Though I am not playing Harpoon now, it is a seriously good game. I only know Harpoon Commanders Edition (the latest version of the original Harpoon). Harpoon 3 is more detailed but deals with smaller scale engagements. Harpoon CE on the other hand can handle absolutely huge engagements. The latest version has a new Battleset (so Harpoon CE now covers the whole world and it's navies). There is a Battleset editor now, and they have also introduced a Platform Editor for the first time.

In practise, this means that people have been able to design scenarios and campaigns which were not previously envisaged. For example, a custom Falkland War Battleset is available. With Harpoon 3 (now called Harpoon:ANW - Advance Naval Warfare) they seem to be taking it back as far as Korea, as far as I can tell. Harpoon:ANW was produced when an enthusiastic programming team realized that a Harpoon 4 was never going to get released.

Both games are published by Matrix Games, so you can easily buy them from the NWS online store.

Hope that helps a bit. Can't speak for Harpoon:ANW but Harpoon:CE would be a blast. I don't really like playing "contemporary event" wargames any more, otherwise I'd still be an addict!

Cheers

Martin :)

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Ed

It's a simulation made by Sonalysts (who made several well known and respected modern sub sims) and is a simulation of modern submarine/antisubmarine warfare. It involves several models of sub, and a couple of models of frigate/ helo/ and Orion patrol plane. It's very highly thought of, and SHAME on you!! :D

It's still readily available and also on sale at the moment for less than 15 bucks. I've looked at the NWS shop and they don't seem to stock it. I don't know if I am allowed to give links to sellers or not. If it helps, you can go to the best known submarine fansite where there IS a link to a sales site. Sonalysts site may have info also.

The boxed version looks great. BUT - more importantly, if anybody is selling the manual, then get it! The manual is fantastic but is about 600 pages thick. Be careful though - the boxed version doesn't come with the paper manual anymore. You have to buy it separately, but there may still be deals to buy them both together. Of course, I have the boxed version and the monstrous manual, which I'll happily sell you for $1000.00! ;)

In addition there is a fansite (get the details from the above sub sim site or Google) which has a lot of scenarios and also campaigns (including a full "Red Storm Rising" campaign)

Although it's a "simulation", it doesn't involve any hand-eye coordination. You even can "fly" the helo and the Orion by just giving them instructions if you want.

Hope that helps.

Take care

Martin :)

HI Martin,

I have followed Sonalysts sub sims with 688 (I) Hunter/Killer, then Sub Command, and now Dangerous Waters. 688's manual was truly impressive, but afterwards it was on the CD. The learning curves are extremely steep and I have not made much progress on the surface or air platforms. You need the printed manual in my humble opionion. :) Sub Command had some flaws and I don't know if all of them have been corrected in Dangerous Waters. Wish there had benn more playable subs in the new game. Using the Soviet sonar displays is a real challenge.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Though I am not playing Harpoon now, it is a seriously good game. I only know Harpoon Commanders Edition (the latest version of the original Harpoon). Harpoon 3 is more detailed but deals with smaller scale engagements. Harpoon CE on the other hand can handle absolutely huge engagements. The latest version has a new Battleset (so Harpoon CE now covers the whole world and it's navies). There is a Battleset editor now, and they have also introduced a Platform Editor for the first time.

In practise, this means that people have been able to design scenarios and campaigns which were not previously envisaged. For example, a custom Falkland War Battleset is available. With Harpoon 3 (now called Harpoon:ANW - Advance Naval Warfare) they seem to be taking it back as far as Korea, as far as I can tell. Harpoon:ANW was produced when an enthusiastic programming team realized that a Harpoon 4 was never going to get released.

Both games are published by Matrix Games, so you can easily buy them from the NWS online store.

Hope that helps a bit. Can't speak for Harpoon:ANW but Harpoon:CE would be a blast. I don't really like playing "contemporary event" wargames any more, otherwise I'd still be an addict!

Cheers

Martin :)

Hi Martin,

A long time Harpoon fan and have been playing Harpoon ANW for a couple of yers now. I have seen the ads for the Commander's Edition and not sure what the difference is between them. There are several databases you can download with scenarios back to the 50s, but I haven't figured out how to make them work. More playability than you can shake a stick at.

[asnrobert]

A co-worker who had the game said if you wanted to play the game, you were better off enlisting and becoming a sonar tech. I thought he was joking until I got the game. Even in 'easy' mode it was impossie to figure out and I didn't feel like wading through a 600 page pdf file.

[paladin5]

HI Martin,

I have followed Sonalysts sub sims with 688 (I) Hunter/Killer, then Sub Command, and now Dangerous Waters. 688's manual was truly impressive, but afterwards it was on the CD. The learning curves are extremely steep and I have not made much progress on the surface or air platforms. You need the printed manual in my humble opionion. :) Sub Command had some flaws and I don't know if all of them have been corrected in Dangerous Waters. Wish there had benn more playable subs in the new game. Using the Soviet sonar displays is a real challenge.


Is Dangerous Waters any more complex then Sub Command?

*fondly remembers being nothing more then a blackhole in the water in Sub Command*

[Warship NWS]

Hi Martin,

A long time Harpoon fan and have been playing Harpoon ANW for a couple of yers now. I have seen the ads for the Commander's Edition and not sure what the difference is between them. There are several databases you can download with scenarios back to the 50s, but I haven't figured out how to make them work. More playability than you can shake a stick at.

I do not get into HCE as much as H3 for one major reason.. no A/C or helo payload logistics. You can load up all your F/A-18s with Harpoons forever so long as you have the aircraft to do it with as one example. Aircraft on any ship for that matter never run out munition reloads. As far as I know this serious detraction in realism has never been fixed. Fleet Command has the same problem which is why our NWP work uses a specialized A/C payload package limitation to help counter it. H3 does have A/C and helo logistics.. and it does make a major difference.

[djcyclone]

Follows the same command concept. They did deal with the turning issues in Dangerouse waters. You can now turn a sub at a realistic rate, instead of always having to use 5 degees rudder in either direction.

At least that is what I did in Sub Command, and 688I. They also added an ASROC torpedo for the Russian Subs. I forget what the name of it is, but it is pretty cool. Russian Subs also have land attack missles now.

The new Sub that can be commanded is the Kilo. Pretty cool when you really get into it. You can also command the Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate. That is a whole other ball game, but I have mastered that command as well.

Other Platforms include the P3 Orion, and a Sea Hawk Chopper.

[djcyclone]

A co-worker who had the game said if you wanted to play the game, you were better off enlisting and becoming a sonar tech. I thought he was joking until I got the game. Even in 'easy' mode it was impossie to figure out and I didn't feel like wading through a 600 page pdf file.

It is not that bad. Just make sure that you are not going faster than 17 knots for you towed array, and no faster than 10 knots for onboard sensors.

Do not try to actually hear contacts with the Audio. You will never get a peep out of the speakers that you can identify. Just go to the Narrow Band Station. Once there you can look at Narrow Band Search box at the Bottom. Move the Cursor vary slowly from side to side, and keep your eyes on the top box while doing this.

When you come across a noise in the water, you will see vertical squiggly lines form in the top box. They will be vary faint at first, but as you get closer to the contact, or if the contact increases speed, then they will become clearer. The ship Classification box that is in the middle of the three, will automatically try to match the lines with known ships in the database.

You can then click on the tap to the right and switch the ships until you finally find something that you feel is a match. Sometimes the computer will land on the right profile right away.

You can also go to the Broad Band station and simply move the cursor 5 degrees in either direction, then press mark. If there is no contact then nothing will happen, but if there is something there, then you Sonar Officer will say his lines telling you there is a ship in that direction. The Sonar Team will then automatically start tracking the unit. Move the cursor 5 degrees each time, and do this repeatedly until you come back to the place where you started, or find a contact.

Sub Command really works the same way.

Remember to use Auto Crew to maintain tracks on targets, but do not rely on them to find ships for you. You have to do that on your own, otherwise you will constantly hear "Torpedo in the Water Bearing ###"

By the time you hear this it is pretty much too late. But if you can identify an advanced Sub like the Akula II at say 5 miles (yes I have done it before) then you have the advantage, because the computer will not hear you until you are at about 2 miles. By the time they hear you, you are already in firing position, with your solution fixed, waiting for the order to fire.

When it comes to Cavitating, a good rule of thumb is for American Subs, you can increase in speed by 1 knot for every 30 feet that you submerge. For every Russian, or Chinese Sub you can increase by 1 knot for every 10 meters. You can do 7 knots on the surface without cavitating, and 8 knots at Periscope depth. After that just keep increasing in speed slowly as you go down.

[Mike Malanaphy]

I do not get into HCE as much as H3 for one major reason.. no A/C or helo payload logistics. You can load up all your F/A-18s with Harpoons forever so long as you have the aircraft to do it with as one example. Aircraft on any ship for that matter never run out munition reloads. As far as I know this serious detraction in realism has never been fixed. Fleet Command has the same problem which is why our NWP work uses a specialized A/C payload package limitation to help counter it. H3 does have A/C and helo logistics.. and it does make a major difference.

Hi NWS,

The logistics portion in H3 never did work, but in H3 ANW, you have real world limitations on aircraft loadouts. AAW and ASW loadouts have to be husbanded and prioritized or you can run out. I don't know about CE, but in ANW, you can go to the game preferences box in the configuration set up and check a box for aircraft logistics amomg other options.

[Mike Malanaphy]

It is not that bad. Just make sure that you are not going faster than 17 knots for you towed array, and no faster than 10 knots for onboard sensors.

Do not try to actually hear contacts with the Audio. You will never get a peep out of the speakers that you can identify. Just go to the Narrow Band Station. Once there you can look at Narrow Band Search box at the Bottom. Move the Cursor vary slowly from side to side, and keep your eyes on the top box while doing this.

When you come across a noise in the water, you will see vertical squiggly lines form in the top box. They will be vary faint at first, but as you get closer to the contact, or if the contact increases speed, then they will become clearer. The ship Classification box that is in the middle of the three, will automatically try to match the lines with known ships in the database.

You can then click on the tap to the right and switch the ships until you finally find something that you feel is a match. Sometimes the computer will land on the right profile right away.

You can also go to the Broad Band station and simply move the cursor 5 degrees in either direction, then press mark. If there is no contact then nothing will happen, but if there is something there, then you Sonar Officer will say his lines telling you there is a ship in that direction. The Sonar Team will then automatically start tracking the unit. Move the cursor 5 degrees each time, and do this repeatedly until you come back to the place where you started, or find a contact.

Sub Command really works the same way.

Remember to use Auto Crew to maintain tracks on targets, but do not rely on them to find ships for you. You have to do that on your own, otherwise you will constantly hear "Torpedo in the Water Bearing ###"

By the time you hear this it is pretty much too late. But if you can identify an advanced Sub like the Akula II at say 5 miles (yes I have done it before) then you have the advantage, because the computer will not hear you until you are at about 2 miles. By the time they hear you, you are already in firing position, with your solution fixed, waiting for the order to fire.

When it comes to Cavitating, a good rule of thumb is for American Subs, you can increase in speed by 1 knot for every 30 feet that you submerge. For every Russian, or Chinese Sub you can increase by 1 knot for every 10 meters. You can do 7 knots on the surface without cavitating, and 8 knots at Periscope depth. After that just keep increasing in speed slowly as you go down.

Hi Cyclone,

Thanks for the tip, I always searched in the broad band box...grrrr. That's not in the manual. :) In 688 (I), you could see your torps hit, in Sub Command and Dangerous Waters, the camera image is cool, but the image is just a contact symbol...unless that is an indication of how crummy my target solution is.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Chris

Sorry about that! I'd never have posted my buying suggestions if I'd seen it. I did look, but this is just further proof that I am a complete dork!

If anyone wants to buy it from you (which I recommend to anyone interested in modern naval warfare) then maybe they ought to ask you if you're able to get the rather brilliant manual.

So, my apologies again.

As for why I disposed of my copy, I discovered that I find it hard to play any game of conflict which is set in modern times. It reminds me too much of what I see on the news. When Harpoon (a game I just adored) first came out, it was a very different world. The game simulated situations which would hopefully never, ever, come to pass. One day, though, I discovered myself bombing the hell out of Tripoli, and I don't think I played since. That said, I think Harpoon, and Dangerous Waters are truly great games. I hope you get plenty of orders for both.

Take care

Martin

Hi guys,

I don't know if NWS can get it, it is available for sale on Sonalysts web site. I would much rather buy it from NWS. :)

[Warship NWS]

Hi guys,

I don't know if NWS can get it, it is available for sale on Sonalysts web site. I would much rather buy it from NWS. :)

We carry Dangerous Waters, HCE, H3 ANW, etc..

Thanks.

[Warship NWS]

Hi NWS,

The logistics portion in H3 never did work, but in H3 ANW, you have real world limitations on aircraft loadouts. AAW and ASW loadouts have to be husbanded and prioritized or you can run out. I don't know about CE, but in ANW, you can go to the game preferences box in the configuration set up and check a box for aircraft logistics amomg other options.

IIRC, logistics for A/C has always worked in H3, but it was never modeled never in HCE. All A/C loadouts have limited numbers of ordnance in H3.

[asnrobert]

It is not that bad.



I played it a couple of times (once commanding a 688 sub and another time an OHP frigate) and I had a hard time just figuring out how to change course and speed or how to fire weapons, let alone analysing sonar contacts.

[djcyclone]

Hi Cyclone,

Thanks for the tip, I always searched in the broad band box...grrrr. That's not in the manual. :) In 688 (I), you could see your torps hit, in Sub Command and Dangerous Waters, the camera image is cool, but the image is just a contact symbol...unless that is an indication of how crummy my target solution is.


If you want to see the Torpedo, or Missle Hit then just right click on the map in Navigation menu. Then find Layers (I think that is what it is under) and find show true. Then find your torpedo, click on it, and go to the 3D view. When true is on, it does not matter how good your solution is. The actual target will be shown, and you can watch the ship sink and everything.

If you really want to play for real, then never use true, but make sure that you know what ship you are shooting at. Once you have classified the ship, you can still watch the torpedo hit.

You have to left click on the contact, and a menu will pop up. You will see Designate Catagory ID. When you put the mouse over this menu, three other menus will pop up. They are Platform Catagory, ID, and confidence.

Platform Catagory is where you tell the computer what you think the contact is. A surface ship, a Sup, a Missle (or torpedo), or an aircraft. ID is Hostile, Neutral, Friendly, and a few others. Confidence is just what it says. How confident are you that the target is there?

Below the Designate Catagory ID is Classify. You can click on this and it will present a list of every unit in the game. Only go to this menu, once you have identified the contact on you Sonar, or ESM stations (most of the time the computer will do this for you, if you have auto crew selected). Now you will have a view that you can watch the torpedo hit, even if the ship is not actually there. The difference in True, and No True when it comes to the 3D view, is there will be a box around the target when True is turned off.

[Christian Schwietzke]

IIRC, logistics for A/C has always worked in H3, but it was never modeled never in HCE. All A/C loadouts have limited numbers of ordnance in H3.

I heard they´re planning aircraft logistics for HCE in a future update - each base/ship/whatever is to get a logistics "budget" out of which payloads other than iron bombs and drop tanks have to be paid for.

[paladin5]

At least that is what I did in Sub Command, and 688I. They also added an ASROC torpedo for the Russian Subs. I forget what the name of it is, but it is pretty cool. Russian Subs also have land attack missles now.

They were already had SS-N-16 Stallion and SS-N-27 in Sub Command, The SS-N-16 or the 65cm torpedo are pretty much the only way you're ever going to kill an American or British SSN on those games.

[djcyclone]

They were already had SS-N-16 Stallion and SS-N-27 in Sub Command, The SS-N-16 or the 65cm torpedo are pretty much the only way you're ever going to kill an American or British SSN on those games.

Now that I think about it, I do recall the Akula having the Stallion, but Dangrouse Waters does make the launch of that missle more realistic.

I do not agree that those are the only way you can kill an American or British Sub. I can be pretty sneaky in both of those games (no matter what sub I have).

And no I am not talking about using Truth.

[Warship NWS]

I heard they´re planning aircraft logistics for HCE in a future update - each base/ship/whatever is to get a logistics "budget" out of which payloads other than iron bombs and drop tanks have to be paid for.

We shall see..

[paladin5]

Now that I think about it, I do recall the Akula having the Stallion, but Dangrouse Waters does make the launch of that missle more realistic.

I do not agree that those are the only way you can kill an American or British Sub. I can be pretty sneaky in both of those games (no matter what sub I have).

And no I am not talking about using Truth.


True but my experience with the 53cm and the Shkval is that I can get the kill but I will find myself facing MK-48 or Spearfish torpedos, becuase of how close I have to get to launch them, and trying to evade those is quite hard if I remember right. (it has been several years since I played)

[djcyclone]

True but my experience with the 53cm and the Shkval is that I can get the kill but I will find myself facing MK-48 or Spearfish torpedos, becuase of how close I have to get to launch them, and trying to evade those is quite hard if I remember right. (it has been several years since I played)


First of all, forget the Shkval. That thing is worthless, because it is unguided, and it makes so much noise that everyone hears when you launch it.

The 53cm is good. I always look at the maximum range of the torpedo, and then I make sure that I am at least half the distance to the target. When a torpedo is moving at 20 knots faster than your fastest speed, chances are the enemy is not going to move 3 or 4 nautical miles before that torpedo catches them.

When it comes to getting away from a mk 48 here is a good tactic to try. You turn and run away from the torpedo. Say the Torpedo is launched from bearing 225, so you turn to 045. When the torpedo has locked on to you (you hear the sonar pinging), then you turn to 000. Now you are still running away from the torpedo, but it is gaining on you faster than before. Now you launch your countermeasuers (launch both passive and active at the same time by pausing the game).

Once you launch the countemeasures, turn to 090. Now as the torpedo changes course to adjust for your subs change, it will cross the countermeasures, and if it works, it will think that the countermeasures are your sub. Once you know the torpedo has taken the bait, you turn 135 This is the best way to avoid torpedoes.

In Dangerouse Waters, the torpedo will detonate at the countermeasures, but in sub command it will just go through them. Even though it is still active, you are now about 1 mile away from the torpedo, and heading in a different direction. Chances are it will not turn to reaquire your trail.

[Saffron]

If I were to get a Harpoon game, which should I get? Is there a comprehensive "gold" edition or will I have to buy several additions to get all of the updates?

And does someone have a link where I can find the database downloads?

[JMS]

If I were to get a Harpoon game, which should I get? Is there a comprehensive "gold" edition or will I have to buy several additions to get all of the updates?

And does someone have a link where I can find the database downloads?

AFAIK there are 2 ultimate editions, one for Harpoon 3 and one for Classic, this last one would be the Commander's Edition.

I had the original and downloaded HCE, but the aircraft evasion tactics were either non-sensical or non-existant, either way, unrealistic and detracted a lot from the game by the time I abandoned it. I think there's still a niche for an operational level modern air/naval combat game.

[Mike Malanaphy]

If I were to get a Harpoon game, which should I get? Is there a comprehensive "gold" edition or will I have to buy several additions to get all of the updates?

And does someone have a link where I can find the database downloads?

Hi Saffron,

As far as I know, Matrix games is the only publisher unless you can find an old DOS Harpoon II which was a little cranky. I'm sure NWS caries them.They are:

Harpoon 3 Advanced Naval Warfare

Harpoon 3 Commander's Edition

Harpoon Professional

Harpoon Commander's edition has some upgraded maps, but pretty much the same game as ANW, but a little more expensive. Harpoon Professional is listed as a military grade simulation.

[Mike Malanaphy]

First of all, forget the Shkval. That thing is worthless, because it is unguided, and it makes so much noise that everyone hears when you launch it.

The 53cm is good. I always look at the maximum range of the torpedo, and then I make sure that I am at least half the distance to the target. When a torpedo is moving at 20 knots faster than your fastest speed, chances are the enemy is not going to move 3 or 4 nautical miles before that torpedo catches them.

When it comes to getting away from a mk 48 here is a good tactic to try. You turn and run away from the torpedo. Say the Torpedo is launched from bearing 225, so you turn to 045. When the torpedo has locked on to you (you hear the sonar pinging), then you turn to 000. Now you are still running away from the torpedo, but it is gaining on you faster than before. Now you launch your countermeasuers (launch both passive and active at the same time by pausing the game).

Once you launch the countemeasures, turn to 090. Now as the torpedo changes course to adjust for your subs change, it will cross the countermeasures, and if it works, it will think that the countermeasures are your sub. Once you know the torpedo has taken the bait, you turn 135 This is the best way to avoid torpedoes.

In Dangerouse Waters, the torpedo will detonate at the countermeasures, but in sub command it will just go through them. Even though it is still active, you are now about 1 mile away from the torpedo, and heading in a different direction. Chances are it will not turn to reaquire your trail.

Hi Cyclone,

I used to play on line with the "Seawolves" in 688 (I). The sonar gets very confusing with four or 5 subs shooting at each other. : ) Their evasion manual was much the same, but advised a speed of 12 knots so you could still hear and generally outrun the torpedo. Most of teh time I never detect anyone. :)

[djcyclone]

Hi Cyclone,

I used to play on line with the "Seawolves" in 688 (I). The sonar gets very confusing with four or 5 subs shooting at each other. : ) Their evasion manual was much the same, but advised a speed of 12 knots so you could still hear and generally outrun the torpedo. Most of teh time I never detect anyone. :)


Best idea in that kind of situation is to dive to your maximum depth. The deeper you are the harder it is for anyone to detect you. Even consider bottoming the boat, so that you do not have to move, and you will not even produce an active sonar signature. Wait until everyone has blown eachother up, then come back up and take on the would be winner.

Look a couple pages back on this thread to see how to operate the Sonar. It works the same in 688I.

[Saffron]

As far as I know, Matrix games is the only publisher unless you can find an old DOS Harpoon II which was a little cranky.

I remember having Harpoon II: Multi-Media edition for DOS. I never got into the game because it ran soooo slooooowly. I ended up abandoning it, but I'd like to get into it again.

So what is the difference between CE and ANW?

[Christian Schwietzke]

Hi Saffron,

As far as I know, Matrix games is the only publisher unless you can find an old DOS Harpoon II which was a little cranky. I'm sure NWS caries them.They are:

Harpoon 3 Advanced Naval Warfare

Harpoon 3 Commander's Edition

Harpoon Professional

Harpoon Commander's edition has some upgraded maps, but pretty much the same game as ANW, but a little more expensive. Harpoon Professional is listed as a military grade simulation.

H3:ANW is the updated version of Harpoon II - as mentioned before it is a more detailed game suited more for smaller scenarios.
HCE is an updated version of the old Harpoon - same graphics, mostly same game mechanics, but additional battlesets, additional scenarios, MANY additional units, revised stats for many weapons, the bugs are fixed, and it has a few additional features - such as mobile ground units.
Both games come with more units than you´ll ever know what to do with, and many, many scenarios - 250+ for HCE, fewer but still plenty of H3:ANW. Both also have a scenario editor.

[Warship NWS]

I remember having Harpoon II: Multi-Media edition for DOS. I never got into the game because it ran soooo slooooowly. I ended up abandoning it, but I'd like to get into it again.


So what is the difference between CE and ANW?


Until they, and if they, add A/C ordnance logistics to HCE I would go with H3ANW. H3ANW does run faster then the older H2 did.

Note, we get in H3ANW and HCE on a regular basis for our store so whenever your ready to try one out go here; http://www.nws-online.net

If you give H3ANW a try and decide it is not your thing let me know, I will work something out for you. To date however, it is one game I almost never see get traded in for store credit and we sell quite a few of them.

[Saffron]

Alrighty, thanks. I'll probably be placing an order within the next few weeks. :D

[Warship NWS]

Alrighty, thanks. I'll probably be placing an order within the next few weeks. :D

Sounds good.. being the Harpoon4 freak that you are I think you will enjoy H3ANW quite a bit. One of the databases is based on H4 specs and was designed by Dale Hiller.

[Mike Malanaphy]

I remember having Harpoon II: Multi-Media edition for DOS. I never got into the game because it ran soooo slooooowly. I ended up abandoning it, but I'd like to get into it again.

So what is the difference between CE and ANW?


Hi Saffron,

I remember that......Harpoon II almost choked my 486, especially where there were a lot of missiles in the air.......took 30 seconds of real time to process 1 second of game time. It ran fine on my Pentium. I still have a couple of copies of the Admiral's Edition, nice since ANW has an on line manual. The game ran fine, but the platform editor was pretty buggy. I built ships for the 1982 Falklands conflict, but couldn't get the scenarios to run right. I wanted to build an Ark Royal for alternate scenarios, but there were no instructions on how to apportion out their various attributes. ANW runs fine though I haven't tried to use the platform editor.

I have an older version of Harpoon Classic, Harppon Classic 97 which runs fine under Windows XP and Vista and has all of the original and added sceanrios included. Still a great game, the one that originally got me into computer gaming.

Either would be a great choice and offer limitless replay value at arelatively modest price. I have never understood how computer games could produced at a cheaper price than their simpler, but so much more popular cartridge brethren. I paid $44.95 for the original Harpoon in 1991 (one battleset with 12 scenarios) and only a couple of dollars more for ANW just two years ago.

[Mike Malanaphy]

If you want to see the Torpedo, or Missle Hit then just right click on the map in Navigation menu. Then find Layers (I think that is what it is under) and find show true. Then find your torpedo, click on it, and go to the 3D view. When true is on, it does not matter how good your solution is. The actual target will be shown, and you can watch the ship sink and everything.

If you really want to play for real, then never use true, but make sure that you know what ship you are shooting at. Once you have classified the ship, you can still watch the torpedo hit.

You have to left click on the contact, and a menu will pop up. You will see Designate Catagory ID. When you put the mouse over this menu, three other menus will pop up. They are Platform Catagory, ID, and confidence.

Platform Catagory is where you tell the computer what you think the contact is. A surface ship, a Sup, a Missle (or torpedo), or an aircraft. ID is Hostile, Neutral, Friendly, and a few others. Confidence is just what it says. How confident are you that the target is there?

Below the Designate Catagory ID is Classify. You can click on this and it will present a list of every unit in the game. Only go to this menu, once you have identified the contact on you Sonar, or ESM stations (most of the time the computer will do this for you, if you have auto crew selected). Now you will have a view that you can watch the torpedo hit, even if the ship is not actually there. The difference in True, and No True when it comes to the 3D view, is there will be a box around the target when True is turned off.

Hi Cyclone,

Played the Hainan scenario the other night involving a North Korean kilo defending against a US sub picking up special ops folks. Got a partial contact and fired all six homing torpedoes and got a hit by sheer luck. I switched to the true view and saw the US sub cavitating at a depth of 15 meters. I still couldn't hear her. The number of special ops missions seem a bit overrepresented and while I know the capability is there, risking a multi billion dollar nuclear submarine in shallow water close in seems very unrealistic. I should try to download some addtional scenarios, but thanks for the play tips. : )

[djcyclone]

FSP and NWP were our final addon projects for non-NWS published titles. All of our future plans are now geared towards our own internal computer and board wargame productions.

Thanks.

Just an idea, and something that I would really like to see.

I want to see a Fleet Command that is based on WW II. I mean all of the Ships, but the engine that was used for Fleet Command. I am sure that you guys could do a lot with that kind of an idea.

Instead of Choppers, you would have sea planes. Subs could be designed to surface all of the time. When ever they come across an enemy unit, they could submerge and attempt to engage, or surface and use deck guns.

You could develope some ideas for commanding ground units. Aircraft would also have to be a little different. You could launch each aircraft indivdually, but then have the option of putting them into formation for an organized attack.

If you want any more ideas just let me know.

[Saffron]

I've been reading around the internet about Harpoon, and hopefully there's someone here that plays it that can answer a question:

I noticed that the biggest download site for Harpoon databases is called Harpoon Headquarters. Two things I'm wondering about. First, Harpoon Headquarters says this:


The database contains information on several thousand aircraft, ships, submarines and ground facilities, and is automatically put to use by the Harpoon3 game engine when you load a scenario. It is very important that the scenario and database match perfectly.

Now, does this mean that I'm limited in designing scenarios to only ships contained in the database I choose to use? In other words, can I take ships from the 1965 - 1979 database and combine them with ships from the 1980-2015 database when designing my own scenario? Or do all of the ships have to come from the same database?

Second:


The databases will only work with scenarios downloaded from the HarpoonHQ. You will experience conflicts and crashes if you try to use a database with scenarios found elsewhere on the Internet or on the Harpoon3 CD.

Now does this mean I can only play scenarios designed by Harpoon HQ or can I create my own scenarios with the databases and still have the game work?

Thanks in advance...

[Mike Malanaphy]

I've been reading around the internet about Harpoon, and hopefully there's someone here that plays it that can answer a question:

I noticed that the biggest download site for Harpoon databases is called Harpoon Headquarters. Two things I'm wondering about. First, Harpoon Headquarters says this:



Now, does this mean that I'm limited in designing scenarios to only ships contained in the database I choose to use? In other words, can I take ships from the 1965 - 1979 database and combine them with ships from the 1980-2015 database when designing my own scenario? Or do all of the ships have to come from the same database?

Second:



Now does this mean I can only play scenarios designed by Harpoon HQ or can I create my own scenarios with the databases and still have the game work?

Thanks in advance...

Hi Saffron,

You just have to make sure you have the right database loaded in the config window and you can create your own scenarios. You should be able to transfer units between databases as they are built with the same ediitor or build your own with the platform editor. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to get the databases and scenarios together so they work. Harpoon HQ has a pretty comprehensive FAQ for Harpoon 3 also.

[Saffron]

Okay .... I have my mouse cursor sitting over the "Order" button in regards to Harpoon: ANW.

Then I come across this posted on the Harpoon HQ site:


Harpoon 3.7 Advanced Naval Warfare (ANW) is the upgraded version of Harpoon3 which adds Multiplayer and many significant changes to the simulation. This version is still under development (September 2008) but can be purchased from its publisher, Matrix Games.
We believe the release of H3.7 aka ANW was controversial as it encompassed both positive and negative elements.On the positive side, multiplayer (a longstanding desire of the community) was finally implemented, and a number of important bugs present in v3.6 were fixed and some UI enhancements were added. On the downside the new version also presented significant problems. Numerous new bugs surfaced, many of them show-stoppers in severity and affecting the vast majority of community scenarios and databases. The development team failed to communicate the numerous code changes to third-party developers with enough time and information for the necessary adjustments to be made.


Unfortunately, after a series of incremental patches, this situation has not improved substantially and we have a number of concerns.
The game still has a fairly large buglist. Some of the problems are obvious, e.g. game crashes or units performing outright stupid actions. Other flaws are more subtle; for example both friendly and enemy AI may behave significantly different than what it has been instructed to.


Third-party content painstakingly crafted over the years (and working fine in pre-ANW versions like v3.6) has been rendered semi-inoperable. Much of this is this is due to bugs or features and was never articulated completely to the user base. While we understand the developers have a right to make changes to their game it probably would be in the best interest of all to let everybody know, particularly if part of your advertising strategy is pointing at the quality of third party content.
Many of the game models have been reverted to the models used by the paper rules system. While we understand the designers right and desire for more parallels between the paper and electronic versions we think the processing power of a computer should be taken advantage of. In our opinion, reverting to a rule set designed for the human processor to efficiently solve at the gaming table is not a step forward for computer Harpoon from a modeling/simulation viewpoint.


Additionally, AGSI and Matrix have not capitalized on the chief improvement of ANW, multiplayer. No MP server has been offered by either company yet, more than 2 years after ANW’s official release and more than 5 years(!) after MP beta testing commenced. This has effectively left MP at ad-hoc community servers and shows a profound lack of trust to the game by its very own creators. If they felt good about this feature they would have clearly invested time and resources into its success.


It seems they think ANW is very buggy. Is this the right of it? Or have these issues been fixed but the site hasn't been updated?

Would HCE be better?

[Warship NWS]

To Saffron,

Take care about what you read in terms of negative third party press about H3 ANW. I do not play MP so I cannot speak for that part of the engine but I have played H3 ANW and no its not perfect but it is definitely not unplayable. Matrix/AGSI is pouring a considerable amount of time and investment into improving the engine based on player feedback - that much I do know. As I have stated on other forums I will not in any way get entangled with player vs Matrix/AGSI discussions - I will only go based on my personal communications with Matrix and experiences with H3ANW.

I can say this with absolute fact.. of ALL of the titles we have taken in for trade-in store credit here at NWS not one player has EVER traded in, or returned, H3 ANW nor has anyone sent me emails with verifiable evidence of major problems that make H3ANW unplayable. I have taken in almost all other Matrix titles for used game store credit at one time or another.. but not one player has turned over an H3ANW, or HCE, for store credit -- and they are both top selling Matrix titles on our store.

I will also note this, third party mods, or databases, were never guaranteed to work with any updates made to the H3 engine -- imagine what kind of chaos a coding team would have to deal with if they tried to work with modders that are also in some cases hacking the H3 engine itself (according to various sources I have talked to). This is why at NWS, as a case example, we made it clear up front with our NWP work that we would never support 3rd party modding or alterations to our project files - you tinker and your on your own. This is just common sense as modders are not part of any official development team, or unofficial project team, and thus are not part of the internal QA process.

As I have stated on other forums.. if you purchase H3ANW from us at NWS and are completely unhappy with the game with reasonable concerns I will be happy to work with you. I will make it quite clear I am in NO WAY defending Matrix or AGSI, they can take care of themselves, nor am I paid anything extra to sell their titles - nor would I let them even offer to try. My stance is completely neutral.

Thanks.

[Saffron]

Well I've nothing but respect for your opinions on naval war games, so I'll keep everything you've said in mind. Gotta clear it with the SO first (:rolleyes:) since money is always tight this time of year. Otherwise I'll be ordering.

[Saffron]

Well I had the chance to actually mess around with Harpoon ANW on a colleague's computer and it looks like I may not buy it, after all.

I enjoy the game up to a point, but I'm a big stickler for replay value and the ability to create as well as play. The devil is in the details, as the saying goes.

For one thing, there doesn't seem to be a scenario creator just a scenario editor. I can edit scenarios that already exist, but I see no way to create scenarios from scratch. There doesn't seem to be any documentation on how to create a scenario from the beginning (obviously it's possible or there wouldn't be all of these user-created scenarios floating around the net), but it's not obvious.

Secondly, the database editor is no longer available to the public. That's a big turn-off. While I can understand people want to protect their intellectual property, it defeats the whole point of having a mod-able game if the utilities needed are kept only among a "chosen few."

Third, there doesn't seem to be a way to change unit names even in the scenario editor. Honestly, I don't like numeric designations because numbers have no context to me. Therefore, having an airbase named A102 and 3 LA class SSNs all named the same with an identifying number throws my organizational skills into a tailspin.

Guess I'll stick with FC and SAS (when it arrives).

[Mike Malanaphy]

Well I had the chance to actually mess around with Harpoon ANW on a colleague's computer and it looks like I may not buy it, after all.

I enjoy the game up to a point, but I'm a big stickler for replay value and the ability to create as well as play. The devil is in the details, as the saying goes.

For one thing, there doesn't seem to be a scenario creator just a scenario editor. I can edit scenarios that already exist, but I see no way to create scenarios from scratch. There doesn't seem to be any documentation on how to create a scenario from the beginning (obviously it's possible or there wouldn't be all of these user-created scenarios floating around the net), but it's not obvious.

Secondly, the database editor is no longer available to the public. That's a big turn-off. While I can understand people want to protect their intellectual property, it defeats the whole point of having a mod-able game if the utilities needed are kept only among a "chosen few."

Third, there doesn't seem to be a way to change unit names even in the scenario editor. Honestly, I don't like numeric designations because numbers have no context to me. Therefore, having an airbase named A102 and 3 LA class SSNs all named the same with an identifying number throws my organizational skills into a tailspin.

Guess I'll stick with FC and SAS (when it arrives).

Hi Saffron,

I've been a Harppon player for a while, in fact, it was the original Harpoon that got me into computer gaming. Harppon ANW is a good game, even though it is over a decade old, Matrix has done a lot of work to make it a good simualtion.

There is a scenario editor within the game, the documetation isn't the greatest. Fortunately I saved my old Harpoon II manuals. When you start the game, click on the config line at teh bottom. On the launcher tab for the next screen, you can start the scenario editor from that menu. Using the 7 key on the num pad, you can rename units. It will show by a numeric designator on the screen, part of the game's desire to be a tactical simualtor, but the the units name appears in the adjacent unit window.

[Saffron]

Thanks, Mike ...

When I get the chance to fool around with it again (hopefully in a day or two) I'll take a closer look at that.

I do wish there was even a basic tutorial on the scenario editor. I've scoured the internet looking for one, and came up empty, which I find rather bizarre. I don't want to give up on it yet, but the ability to make my own scenarios (or not) can be a game breaker for me.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Thanks, Mike ...

When I get the chance to fool around with it again (hopefully in a day or two) I'll take a closer look at that.

I do wish there was even a basic tutorial on the scenario editor. I've scoured the internet looking for one, and came up empty, which I find rather bizarre. I don't want to give up on it yet, but the ability to make my own scenarios (or not) can be a game breaker for me.

Hi Saffron,

The documentation is a little frustrating. The on line manual talks about scenario design parameters, but not how to operate the scenario editor. There is also documentaion on the database editor, but not how to use it. I know manuals are expensive, but the lack of documentation on these issues in a 10 year old game is very frustrating.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Thanks, Mike ...

When I get the chance to fool around with it again (hopefully in a day or two) I'll take a closer look at that.

I do wish there was even a basic tutorial on the scenario editor. I've scoured the internet looking for one, and came up empty, which I find rather bizarre. I don't want to give up on it yet, but the ability to make my own scenarios (or not) can be a game breaker for me.

Saffron:

Have you contacted Matrix Games about the scenario creation issue? Let them know that your willingness to purchase the game rests on that ability. See what they have to say and possibly offer as a work around this issue. From what I've read, they are a stand up company.

[steel_selachian]

On Sub Command, instead of "Show True," I usually play with "Show dead platforms" enabled. That way you maintain the need to properly classify what you're shooting at and still get the warm, pyromaniacal satisfaction of seeing a burning, battered Kirov sink :D

The sonar is a pretty difficult bit to master, especially with the different display system on the Akula. I usually leave the Auto Crew on there as a default to watch things while I'm flipping through other stations, and turn it off when I can focus on sonar. Otherwise there's often too bloody many things happening. I also usually put TMA auto crew on to save time. I mainly focus my attention on ship handling and fire control.

[djcyclone]

On Sub Command, instead of "Show True," I usually play with "Show dead platforms" enabled. That way you maintain the need to properly classify what you're shooting at and still get the warm, pyromaniacal satisfaction of seeing a burning, battered Kirov sink :D

The sonar is a pretty difficult bit to master, especially with the different display system on the Akula. I usually leave the Auto Crew on there as a default to watch things while I'm flipping through other stations, and turn it off when I can focus on sonar. Otherwise there's often too bloody many things happening. I also usually put TMA auto crew on to save time. I mainly focus my attention on ship handling and fire control.


I just recently learned how to put Sub Command missions on Dangerouse Waters. Now I can do anything that I want, like play some of the Kilos against a Los Angeles. Even playing the OHP on the first Campain Mission for the Los Angeles.

With the new weapons, new 3D Sub Designs, and even the updates like the UUV actualy running out of fuel after 30 minutes. All of that put together, make for some fun game play.

I cannot put any of the videos on Dangerous Waters, but that is something I can live with.

[steel_selachian]

Sub Command is a pretty challenging game and it's hard to maintain situational awareness. I've done several particularly dumb things on there.

Runner-up was taking a 688i in on a cruise missile strike against a terror camp in Pakistan; not expecting opposition I dove to 800 feet and ran the boat up to flank speed. The scenario threw in an engineering casualty, so I hit the Emergency Blow valve and surfaced the ship, at which point a hostile Pakistani diesel boat took a shot at me. Thank heavens for decoys while I was lying doggo on the surface with my air banks empty :o . After killing the sub and proceeding to the launch point, I went to PD and set the waypoints for my TLAMs. After flooding tubes and setting everything up, I went back to the periscope view ... and promptly saw the broadside of a tanker cutting across the bow. Lost the towed array after ordering all back emergency.

Dumbest thing was firing a SS-N-27 ASW missile off an Improved Akula the first time around. I thought the range setting was for the torpedo's search pattern, so I set it to zero. Needless to say, that was actually the range for the rocket; the weapon dropped straight back down on me like a Wile E. Coyote mishap and the torpedo sank the boat.

[djcyclone]

Hahahahaha.

That is a good one. I have never had that much trouble with the asroc torpedoes, but I find that it is easier to use the Auto Crew when targeting the rocket torpedoes. The Computer is better at figuring the distance that the Rocket should go, so that the torpedo drops right on target.