RN - how the mighty have fallen

[Kyle Holgate]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120416453136298617.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Mart]

Only to things float to the top, Cream, and that other thing.

The Royal Navy is still cream. A big navy doesn't make for better seamen. It just makes the navy bigger. The most important thing the navy can do, apart from try to maintain its ability to maintain it's commitments, is to ensure that the quality of its training, staff and tradition is kept high.

By "tradition", I don't mean "traditions", but rather the spirit of the what RN has been about, "in itself". You can't buy that. You can't borrow it, or learn it from someone else. But, you can lose it, and find you can't get it back.

The Royal navy has done all sorts of stupid things anyway - just look at the royal Yacht! - now happily defunct.

Incidentally, on the "tradition of the RN" did anybody see The BBC documentary, or read the book by it's advisor, the naval historian Eric Groves, on the Battle of The River Plate?
The question arose, as to whether a Royal Navy ship would have scuttled, or come out to fight. No criticism, of any kind, was levelled at Langsdorff. But it did show the power of that RN tradition. If people missed it I'll let you now what was said.

Cheers

Martin - oh - and cut the cheek! :rolleyes:

[clacton2]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120416453136298617.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Dear God,
I thought I'd seen everything successive short-sighted government cuts could achieve, but if this is even partly true, it plumbs whole new depths, and almost makes me cry with frustration !!

Jon:eek::eek:

[paladin5]

Stories like this make me sad :(

[Mart]

My earlier posting maybe masked my anger with an optimistic gloss.

It's IS stupid! But having worked in a government agency for 25 years before I was retired, nothing much surprises me any more. The sad; very sad, truth. :(

Martin

[Ed Rotondaro]

Dear God,
I thought I'd seen everything successive short-sighted government cuts could achieve, but if this is even partly true, it plumbs whole new depths, and almost makes me cry with frustration !!

Jon:eek::eek:

Jon:

Look at it on the bright side, at least they're doing something nautical instead of a reality based TV show to raise money. :rolleyes:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Only to things float to the top, Cream, and that other thing.

The Royal Navy is still cream. A big navy doesn't make for better seamen. It just makes the navy bigger. The most important thing the navy can do, apart from try to maintain its ability to maintain it's commitments, is to ensure that the quality of its training, staff and tradition is kept high.

By "tradition", I don't mean "traditions", but rather the spirit of the what RN has been about, "in itself". You can't buy that. You can't borrow it, or learn it from someone else. But, you can lose it, and find you can't get it back.

The Royal navy has done all sorts of stupid things anyway - just look at the royal Yacht! - now happily defunct.

Incidentally, on the "tradition of the RN" did anybody see The BBC documentary, or read the book by it's advisor, the naval historian Eric Groves, on the Battle of The River Plate?
The question arose, as to whether a Royal Navy ship would have scuttled, or come out to fight. No criticism, of any kind, was levelled at Langsdorff. But it did show the power of that RN tradition. If people missed it I'll let you now what was said.

Cheers

Martin - oh - and cut the cheek! :rolleyes:

Martin:

Ahh tradition, there are two quotes that come to mind, both of which I'm sure you know. Churchill's take on tradition "Don't talk to me about tradition, it's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash". (I'm going by memory here and that fails frequently).

Admiral Andrew Cunnigham's view on tradition "It takes three years to build a warship. It would take three hundred years to rebuild a tradition".

Tradition is a two edged sword that cuts both ways. Cheers.

[Mart]

Martin:

Churchill's take on tradition "Don't talk to me about tradition, it's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash".

And what, exactly, is wring with rum, sodomy and the lash? It's the weekend!!

Seriously though, the question about the Graf Spee, was Grove's statement that it was in the tradition of the RN, that the ship would have come out to fight. Given that tactical retreat was not an option, the RN would always fight, even if they knew the odds were nearly impossible. In my (admittedly amateur) view, Langsdorff made the wrong decision, but for the right reasons. Had he come out, he might have been successful, but he wasn't to know that. He thought an Armada was awaiting him. Instead, he put his men first.

Incidentally, I think Churchill's comments probably reflect his public school education - where these things were on the curriculum!

(For non-Brits I should say that a British Public School is the opposite of what it sounds, A Public School is a very expensive, very posh, private school - like Eton and the rest)

Martin:)

[clacton2]

Jon:

Look at it on the bright side, at least they're doing something nautical instead of a reality based TV show to raise money. :rolleyes:


Ed,
Too true, but watch this space, that may be next, I am willing to believe almost anything nowadays.LOL
Jon;)

[clacton2]

And what, exactly, is wring with rum, sodomy and the lash? It's the weekend!!

Seriously though, the question about the Graf Spee, was Grove's statement that it was in the tradition of the RN, that the ship would have come out to fight. Given that tactical retreat was not an option, the RN would always fight, even if they knew the odds were nearly impossible. In my (admittedly amateur) view, Langsdorff made the wrong decision, but for the right reasons. Had he come out, he might have been successful, but he wasn't to know that. He thought an Armada was awaiting him. Instead, he put his men first.

Incidentally, I think Churchill's comments probably reflect his public school education - where these things were on the curriculum!

(For non-Brits I should say that a British Public School is the opposite of what it sounds, A Public School is a very expensive, very posh, private school - like Eton and the rest)

Martin:)

Martin,
Completely agree, having spent 15 years in the RN, we had quite a few weekends like that.
Totally agree with your conclusions about the Graf Spee, Langsdorff was convinced that a fleet awaited him in the Plate estuary ( due mainly to clever British disinformation work ) and did what he considered the honourable thing, with Hitler's approval.
Of course the RN would have taken the opposite course of action ( due mainly to our tradition ), but also because we always believe we can win, even when the odds don't look good.
Jon:rolleyes:

[Ed Rotondaro]

And what, exactly, is wring with rum, sodomy and the lash? It's the weekend!!

Seriously though, the question about the Graf Spee, was Grove's statement that it was in the tradition of the RN, that the ship would have come out to fight. Given that tactical retreat was not an option, the RN would always fight, even if they knew the odds were nearly impossible. In my (admittedly amateur) view, Langsdorff made the wrong decision, but for the right reasons. Had he come out, he might have been successful, but he wasn't to know that. He thought an Armada was awaiting him. Instead, he put his men first.

Incidentally, I think Churchill's comments probably reflect his public school education - where these things were on the curriculum!

(For non-Brits I should say that a British Public School is the opposite of what it sounds, A Public School is a very expensive, very posh, private school - like Eton and the rest)

Martin:)

Martin:

You have far wilder weekends than I do LOL!

Regarding Graf Spee, awhile back we had discussion about the RN and surrender and it appears from what my good mate Jon has said that the RN stopped surrending ships once the age of sail ended. The example of HMS Glowworm vs the Hipper comes to mind as does the doomed stand of the armed merchant cruiser Rawalpindi versus the Gneisenau and Admiral Spee. And of courser we see this also at the battle of Coronel in WWI. The RN did not run from a fight no matter what the odds.

Langsdorf's decision reflects the very indecisive nature of the entire German navy in WWII. Tactically they were passable, but operationally they were hamstrung by a bad doctrine and a sense of inferiority when dealing with the RN. Vincent O'Hara (who occasionally posts on these forums) has a book entitled "The German Fleet at War 1939-1945" which I have read. Throughout the book you will see examples of a German navy that was not up to par and vastly overrated, at least where its surface combatants were concerned.

Regarding British public schools I believe that the movie "O Lucky Man" with Malcolm McDowell sums them up quite nicely. (Not a bad reference for a Yank eh?);)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Martin,
Completely agree, having spent 15 years in the RN, we had quite a few weekends like that.
Totally agree with your conclusions about the Graf Spee, Langsdorff was convinced that a fleet awaited him in the Plate estuary ( due mainly to clever British disinformation work ) and did what he considered the honourable thing, with Hitler's approval.
Of course the RN would have taken the opposite course of action ( due mainly to our tradition ), but also because we always believe we can win, even when the odds don't look good.
Jon:rolleyes:

Jon:

When reviewing naval history, there are times when I think the RN one simply because they had bigger balls (forgive here Chris) than their opponents. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's size of the fight in the dog as we Yanks say. And the British bulldog and has plenty of fight.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Dear God,
I thought I'd seen everything successive short-sighted government cuts could achieve, but if this is even partly true, it plumbs whole new depths, and almost makes me cry with frustration !!

Jon:eek::eek:


Hi Clacton,

Very sad though it's obvious who would provide the best training. Though not an active warhip, one of the highligts of our 2004 Baltic cruise was visiting HMS Belfast in London. Wonderfully preserved and the info booklet has more information and technical detailsthat most references. On the day we visited, a "Monopoly" tournament was being held in the wardroom and her side partially covered by a 50 foor long advertising banner.

As it was a week day, I had the run of her and my poor wife thought she was going to have to call the police to get me off her. Would love to spend a couple of weeks their visiting the RN museums and preserved ships. A National treasure, imagine if the Enterprise had been saved.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Jon:

Look at it on the bright side, at least they're doing something nautical instead of a reality based TV show to raise money. :rolleyes:

OMG, could you imagine the Surreal World being filmed on an RN warship????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Malanaphy]

Martin:

Ahh tradition, there are two quotes that come to mind, both of which I'm sure you know. Churchill's take on tradition "Don't talk to me about tradition, it's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash". (I'm going by memory here and that fails frequently).

Admiral Andrew Cunnigham's view on tradition "It takes three years to build a warship. It would take three hundred years to rebuild a tradition".

Tradition is a two edged sword that cuts both ways. Cheers.

Hi Guys,

As much as Churchill loved the navy, hopefully it was in reference to some old hardshelled admiral using tradition to support a bad decision like keeping sails or something.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

As much as Churchill loved the navy, hopefully it was in reference to some old hardshelled admiral using tradition to support a bad decision like keeping sails or something.

Mike:

I couldn't find the exact reference, but Churchill was addressing members of the Admiralty when he made the remark. Andrew Gordon's "The Rules of the Game" so thoroughly sum up the state of the RN pre-WWI that I won't try to summarize. If you have not read this book, run, do not walk, and get a copy ASAP. It is probably one of the ten best naval books currently available and the best account of Jutland ever. Glad to see you back on the forums!

[old_pop2000]

In the current issue of Proceedings, there is an article by Commodore Manohar K. Banger Ret. from the Indian Navy entitled "The Royal Navy: Whether Goes Thou? It speaks to the fact that the current 25 ship RN is a result of the Strategic Defense Review of 1998 and that the current Indian Navy has over 100 ships and is still considered a brown water navy. He states that the merchant fleet has only about 20000 British citizens making a professional living at it. The current First Sea Lord has to stop the decline in shipbuilding and auxilliary manufacturers and then build up to the new levels providing enough funding is available.

[clacton2]

Martin:

You have far wilder weekends than I do LOL!

Regarding Graf Spee, awhile back we had discussion about the RN and surrender and it appears from what my good mate Jon has said that the RN stopped surrending ships once the age of sail ended. The example of HMS Glowworm vs the Hipper comes to mind as does the doomed stand of the armed merchant cruiser Rawalpindi versus the Gneisenau and Admiral Spee. And of courser we see this also at the battle of Coronel in WWI. The RN did not run from a fight no matter what the odds.

Langsdorf's decision reflects the very indecisive nature of the entire German navy in WWII. Tactically they were passable, but operationally they were hamstrung by a bad doctrine and a sense of inferiority when dealing with the RN. Vincent O'Hara (who occasionally posts on these forums) has a book entitled "The German Fleet at War 1939-1945" which I have read. Throughout the book you will see examples of a German navy that was not up to par and vastly overrated, at least where its surface combatants were concerned.

Regarding British public schools I believe that the movie "O Lucky Man" with Malcolm McDowell sums them up quite nicely. (Not a bad reference for a Yank eh?);)

Ed,
We certainly had some wild weekends!!
You are correct that RN stopped surrendering ships after the age of sail, don't know if it was a policy decision or whether that particular doctrine just evolved over time, strange thing really, we were taught never give up the ship without a fight ( even against overwhelming odds ), but we were never told why!
Sorry to correct you Ed but HMS Rawalpindi was sunk by Gniesenau and Scharnhorst ( not Graf Spee ).
Like your reference re: public schools.

Jon

[clacton2]

Jon:

When reviewing naval history, there are times when I think the RN one simply because they had bigger balls (forgive here Chris) than their opponents. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's size of the fight in the dog as we Yanks say. And the British bulldog and has plenty of fight.

Ed,
Certainly used to have, don't think they did their image any good with the debacle over the sailors captured by Iran's revolutionary guard last year. Still hopefully they learned by their mistakes.
Jon:eek:

[clacton2]

Hi Clacton,

Very sad though it's obvious who would provide the best training. Though not an active warhip, one of the highligts of our 2004 Baltic cruise was visiting HMS Belfast in London. Wonderfully preserved and the info booklet has more information and technical detailsthat most references. On the day we visited, a "Monopoly" tournament was being held in the wardroom and her side partially covered by a 50 foor long advertising banner.

As it was a week day, I had the run of her and my poor wife thought she was going to have to call the police to get me off her. Would love to spend a couple of weeks their visiting the RN museums and preserved ships. A National treasure, imagine if the Enterprise had been saved.

Mike,
Glad you enjoyed it, I always think its a great day out!!
I also like visiting the ex naval dockyard at Chatham, where you can go around the old rope making works from the days of sail. They also have the WWII destroyer HMS Cavalier and the Cold War era diesel submarine HMS Ocelot preserved there.
Jon

[clacton2]

OMG, could you imagine the Surreal World being filmed on an RN warship????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike,
As I said before I could believe almost anything !!! LOL
Jon:confused:

[clacton2]

In the current issue of Proceedings, there is an article by Commodore Manohar K. Banger Ret. from the Indian Navy entitled "The Royal Navy: Whether Goes Thou? It speaks to the fact that the current 25 ship RN is a result of the Strategic Defense Review of 1998 and that the current Indian Navy has over 100 ships and is still considered a brown water navy. He states that the merchant fleet has only about 20000 British citizens making a professional living at it. The current First Sea Lord has to stop the decline in shipbuilding and auxilliary manufacturers and then build up to the new levels providing enough funding is available.

Dennis,
That of course is the main trouble - funding, especially with a Labour government in power, which is intent on many costly social programs. Nothing wrong with that of course, but they also keep finding too many jobs for our severly stretched armed forces as well, with the result that they are permanently under-funded.
Jon:rolleyes:

[asnrobert]

Regarding Graf Spee, awhile back we had discussion about the RN and surrender and it appears from what my good mate Jon has said that the RN stopped surrending ships once the age of sail ended. The example of HMS Glowworm vs the Hipper comes to mind as does the doomed stand of the armed merchant cruiser Rawalpindi versus the Gneisenau and Admiral Spee. And of courser we see this also at the battle of Coronel in WWI. The RN did not run from a fight no matter what the odds.



And don't forget the stand of the armed merchant cruiser HMS Jervis Bay against the Admiral Scheer, which allowed the convoy she was escorting to get away.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
We certainly had some wild weekends!!
You are correct that RN stopped surrendering ships after the age of sail, don't know if it was a policy decision or whether that particular doctrine just evolved over time, strange thing really, we were taught never give up the ship without a fight ( even against overwhelming odds ), but we were never told why!
Sorry to correct you Ed but HMS Rawalpindi was sunk by Gniesenau and Scharnhorst ( not Graf Spee ).
Like your reference re: public schools.

Jon

Hi Jon:

Thanks for the correction, I was having the hardest time finding the ship's name and the battle in question (too many books to search thru). I'm wondering if there was some change in naval laws that made capturing ships either illegal or impractical? Still up to WWI, ships could at least capture a merchant ship and bring her to port. The US did capture at least one German U-boat during the war in the Atlantic. Glad you appreciated the Public School reference. I have to maintain appearances to my British friends.:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Certainly used to have, don't think they did their image any good with the debacle over the sailors captured by Iran's revolutionary guard last year. Still hopefully they learned by their mistakes.
Jon:eek:

Jon:

All nations go thru bad periods and hopefully recover (Iranian Hostage crisis, 9/11). Stay strong and hoist a pint of Adnams for me! (Bet you didn't think I knew about that English ale eh?) Cheers!

[clacton2]

Jon:

All nations go thru bad periods and hopefully recover (Iranian Hostage crisis, 9/11). Stay strong and hoist a pint of Adnams for me! (Bet you didn't think I knew about that English ale eh?) Cheers!

Ed,
True enough.
Now the reference to Adnam's ale, I am impressed with, as it's a small niche brewer from my part of the world over here, not one of the major players. You need to try a pint of their "Broadside" beer, boy its strong!!
Jon:D

[clacton2]

Hi Jon:

Thanks for the correction, I was having the hardest time finding the ship's name and the battle in question (too many books to search thru). I'm wondering if there was some change in naval laws that made capturing ships either illegal or impractical? Still up to WWI, ships could at least capture a merchant ship and bring her to port. The US did capture at least one German U-boat during the war in the Atlantic. Glad you appreciated the Public School reference. I have to maintain appearances to my British friends.:D

Ed,
The British managed to capture U-570 intact, in 1941 I think, and she later went on to be commissioned into the RN as HMS Graph, and survived the war.
Jon:)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
True enough.
Now the reference to Adnam's ale, I am impressed with, as it's a small niche brewer from my part of the world over here, not one of the major players. You need to try a pint of their "Broadside" beer, boy its strong!!
Jon:D

Jon:

I've had Broadside, but only in the bottle. We actually get a fairly decent range of English ales and beers in my neck of the woods. I did manage to momentarily stun an excellent English pub keeper while visiting your county on my honeymoon. He offered to let try a really good ale that he thought I would like. It was Royal Oak. I told him I had already had the chance to sampe it and would certainly like another chance. He could not believe that it was available in the US. As I sipped the ale and chuckled it was nice to appreciate that I had pulled one over on him.

Oh by the way, I like Prince Harry's spirit. He's got that red headed ready to fight attitude down pat. Somewhere in heaven Princess Diana can be proud of her son! St. George for England!

[Mike Malanaphy]

Ed,
The British managed to capture U-570 intact, in 1941 I think, and she later went on to be commissioned into the RN as HMS Graph, and survived the war.
Jon:)

Hi Guys,

In a little known or referenced action, the minelaying submarine HMS Seal, was captured by the Germans in May, 1940. After striking a mine, the boat was disabled and the captain tried to make a run for Swedish waters. After his sole Lewis gun jammed, he surrendered to a German AR 196 seaplane much as U-570 would to an RAF Coastal Command bomber. Both captains had ressisted to the best of their abilities and did the honorable thing to save their crews. HMS Seal was scuttled by the Germans 5 years later.

In many of these other actions, such as HMS Glowworm, Glorious' escorting DDs, Rawalpindi, and so many others, these ships had the opportunity to inflict damage on their attackers or to allow other ships to escape, so the brave sacrifices were justified by the brutal calculus of warand stirred the hearts of millions.

The RN has been counted out before such as before the Falklands and has always stepped forward to serve the nation. I would love to have a large print of the photo from Newsweek or Time that showed HMS Hermes sailing for the South Atlantic with the crew drawn up to spell out "The Empire Strikes Back" on her flight deck. Beatty, Jellicoe, Cunningham, and so many others must have been smiling that day.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

In a little known or referenced action, the minelaying submarine HMS Seal, was captured by the Germans in May, 1940. After striking a mine, the boat was disabled and the captain tried to make a run for Swedish waters. After his sole Lewis gun jammed, he surrendered to a German AR 196 seaplane much as U-570 would to an RAF Coastal Command bomber. Both captains had ressisted to the best of their abilities and did the honorable thing to save their crews. HMS Seal was scuttled by the Germans 5 years later.

In many of these other actions, such as HMS Glowworm, Glorious' escorting DDs, Rawalpindi, and so many others, these ships had the opportunity to inflict damage on their attackers or to allow other ships to escape, so the brave sacrifices were justified by the brutal calculus of warand stirred the hearts of millions.

The RN has been counted out before such as before the Falklands and has always stepped forward to serve the nation. I would love to have a large print of the photo from Newsweek or Time that showed HMS Hermes sailing for the South Atlantic with the crew drawn up to spell out "The Empire Strikes Back" on her flight deck. Beatty, Jellicoe, Cunningham, and so many others must have been smiling that day.

Well said Mike, well said!

[clacton2]

Hi Guys,

In a little known or referenced action, the minelaying submarine HMS Seal, was captured by the Germans in May, 1940. After striking a mine, the boat was disabled and the captain tried to make a run for Swedish waters. After his sole Lewis gun jammed, he surrendered to a German AR 196 seaplane much as U-570 would to an RAF Coastal Command bomber. Both captains had ressisted to the best of their abilities and did the honorable thing to save their crews. HMS Seal was scuttled by the Germans 5 years later.

In many of these other actions, such as HMS Glowworm, Glorious' escorting DDs, Rawalpindi, and so many others, these ships had the opportunity to inflict damage on their attackers or to allow other ships to escape, so the brave sacrifices were justified by the brutal calculus of warand stirred the hearts of millions.

The RN has been counted out before such as before the Falklands and has always stepped forward to serve the nation. I would love to have a large print of the photo from Newsweek or Time that showed HMS Hermes sailing for the South Atlantic with the crew drawn up to spell out "The Empire Strikes Back" on her flight deck. Beatty, Jellicoe, Cunningham, and so many others must have been smiling that day.

Mike,
Absolutely correct, I had heard about HMS Seal, but completely forgot about it in the context of our discussion. Thanks for that.
True the RN has been counted out before only to make a great comeback,and I hope it can happen again, unfortunately, I am a bit more pessimistic this time around. Hope I'm proved wrong.
I remember "The Empire Strikes Back" incident, as it excited some adverse press comment from some quarters at the time, as it harked back to our bad old imperialistic days. However I agree, I and many, many others thought it was both extremely clever and and said how we all felt at the time very eloquently. I have'nt seen a picture of it for years.
Jon

[clacton2]

Jon:

I've had Broadside, but only in the bottle. We actually get a fairly decent range of English ales and beers in my neck of the woods. I did manage to momentarily stun an excellent English pub keeper while visiting your county on my honeymoon. He offered to let try a really good ale that he thought I would like. It was Royal Oak. I told him I had already had the chance to sampe it and would certainly like another chance. He could not believe that it was available in the US. As I sipped the ale and chuckled it was nice to appreciate that I had pulled one over on him.

Oh by the way, I like Prince Harry's spirit. He's got that red headed ready to fight attitude down pat. Somewhere in heaven Princess Diana can be proud of her son! St. George for England!

Ed,
Good story, I'm even more impressed now!!
Regarding Prince Harry, it is a tradition for princes of this country to serve in our armed forces and sometimes to even go in harms way. The example of Prince Andrew, Duke of York, who served as a helicopter pilot in the RN during The Falklands Conflict springs to mind.
Jon

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Good story, I'm even more impressed now!!
Regarding Prince Harry, it is a tradition for princes of this country to serve in our armed forces and sometimes to even go in harms way. The example of Prince Andrew, Duke of York, who served as a helicopter pilot in the RN during The Falklands Conflict springs to mind.
Jon

Jon:

From what I understand, Prince Harry basically told his commanders, "Either I see combat, or I resign". That earns my respect. He shows up as a fictional Major in the SAS in the alternative history series "The Axis of Time" by Australian writer John Birmingham. Highly recommended. Where did he get the red hair from? Can't be the Windsor side of the family. Cheers!

[clacton2]

Jon:

From what I understand, Prince Harry basically told his commanders, "Either I see combat, or I resign". That earns my respect. He shows up as a fictional Major in the SAS in the alternative history series "The Axis of Time" by Australian writer John Birmingham. Highly recommended. Where did he get the red hair from? Can't be the Windsor side of the family. Cheers!

Ed,
You could be right, either way its a big PR coup for both the Army and the Royal Family.
Don't think the Windsor's had much to do with the red hair ( as Monty Python would say, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more ).
Jon

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike,
Absolutely correct, I had heard about HMS Seal, but completely forgot about it in the context of our discussion. Thanks for that.
True the RN has been counted out before only to make a great comeback,and I hope it can happen again, unfortunately, I am a bit more pessimistic this time around. Hope I'm proved wrong.
I remember "The Empire Strikes Back" incident, as it excited some adverse press comment from some quarters at the time, as it harked back to our bad old imperialistic days. However I agree, I and many, many others thought it was both extremely clever and and said how we all felt at the time very eloquently. I have'nt seen a picture of it for years.
Jon

Hi Clacton,

Wish I had bought a copy...tried finding it on the net, but have beem unsuccessful. The Star Wars film of the same name had come out the prior summer. Nothing wrong with those feelings of pride and saving your citizens from the occupation by a totalitarian neighbor. And as for the adverse press.......*&^%^%$#%, mate!

[clacton2]

Hi Clacton,

Wish I had bought a copy...tried finding it on the net, but have beem unsuccessful. The Star Wars film of the same name had come out the prior summer. Nothing wrong with those feelings of pride and saving your citizens from the occupation by a totalitarian neighbor. And as for the adverse press.......*&^%^%$#%, mate!

Mike,
Yeah, I have tried to find a copy too, without success.
I have looked in all my reference sources, on the net and also in old newspaper archives, all with no luck.
I may try writing to the Admiralty, see if they have a copy.
Jon:confused:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
You could be right, either way its a big PR coup for both the Army and the Royal Family.
Don't think the Windsor's had much to do with the red hair ( as Monty Python would say, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more ).
Jon

Jon:

That was brilliant! Thanks!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Mike,
Yeah, I have tried to find a copy too, without success.
I have looked in all my reference sources, on the net and also in old newspaper archives, all with no luck.
I may try writing to the Admiralty, see if they have a copy.
Jon:confused:

Jon:

I would say they a combat veteran like yourself that much at least.

[john964]

Ed,
You could be right, either way its a big PR coup for both the Army and the Royal Family.
Don't think the Windsor's had much to do with the red hair ( as Monty Python would say, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more ).
JonI hate to tell you but Red Hair is a recesive trait it tends to skip generations and then pop up. My brother has red hair but nobody in recent generations has it but a g,grate grandmother had it.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I hate to tell you but Red Hair is a recesive trait it tends to skip generations and then pop up. My brother has red hair but nobody in recent generations has it but a g,grate grandmother had it.


What's wrong with being a genetic throwback eh?:cool:

[john964]

What's wrong with being a genetic throwback eh?:cool:

Actually if you have red hair you more than likely have Celtic ancesterey there are several regions in the world were red hair has a higher percentage than normal for a given population and this coresponds almost entirely with where large celtic population once were like Scoland Ireland NW France and NE Spain also Lebanon of all places.

[clacton2]

I hate to tell you but Red Hair is a recesive trait it tends to skip generations and then pop up. My brother has red hair but nobody in recent generations has it but a g,grate grandmother had it.

Hi,
I agree, but I think this case is somewhat different, you have to watch the Royal goings on and subsequent press speculation in this country to know what I am talking about. Can't say too much more, don't want to get arrested for treason or some such ( off with his head )!! LOL
Jon:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi,
I agree, but I think this case is somewhat different, you have to watch the Royal goings on and subsequent press speculation in this country to know what I am talking about. Can't say too much more, don't want to get arrested for treason or some such ( off with his head )!! LOL
Jon:D

Jon:

I understand, there was some speculation as to the late Princess of Wales and her bodyguard. Nothing like a royal scandal.

[clacton2]

Jon:

I understand, there was some speculation as to the late Princess of Wales and her bodyguard. Nothing like a royal scandal.

Ed,
Not that one, I think it was something to with a former cavalry officer James Hewitt.
Jon:eek:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Not that one, I think it was something to with a former cavalry officer James Hewitt.
Jon:eek:

Jon:

Ahh yes, forgot about him. See what happens when you live on this side of the pond? Must be why Harry originally joined the cavalry (The Blues and Royals are a cavalry regiment correct?)

[clacton2]

Jon:

Ahh yes, forgot about him. See what happens when you live on this side of the pond? Must be why Harry originally joined the cavalry (The Blues and Royals are a cavalry regiment correct?)

Ed,
Correct, they are the oldest Household cavalry regiment in the British Army.
An amalgamation of the Royal Horse Guards ( the Blues ) and the Royal Dragoons ( the Royals ) in the late 1960's I think.
Jon:D