Question (and some observations) for NWS Staff and Fighting Steel players

[vipe155]

First, let me say that I am a huge fan of World War II simulation games, and even though not all of them were great, I really like SSI's games. I wish they were still around, but more on that later.

I really enjoyed Fighting Steel, and naval warfare is one of my favorite subjects. But, the game has gotten very dated. I can run the game on my system, but the resolution of the game, etc. make it very difficult to use (640x480 graphics on a 19" LCD). Basically, I have one question. As far as I can tell, there isn't any games that closely resemble FS anymore, correct? Are there any games here at NWS that are being produced that are similiar? Or, if not, does anyone know of any similar games out there. I've seen a couple of the turn based games here on this site, but that's not really like FS. You know, I've tried games like Enigma Rising Tide, Battlestations Midway, etc. but those really don't cut it for realism or strategic naval fighting.

If nothing is in development here, I have to ask if that would not be feasible project. Granted, I don't know much about the subject, but you all have done models for the old game in your "expansions" and obviously have knowledge of the source code for the FS, so why not use a more modern 3D tool for ship models, water, etc. and base the overall gameplay of a new game on the original FS. Basically a game like Fighting Steel that was modernized, with a few tweaks here and there would be awesome.

I don't mean to ramble, but also I don't understand why UbiSoft hasn't capitalized on all of SSI's old series. They make new Silent Hunter games, and some flight sims, but not much else in the spirit of the SSI catalog. I would think (and I wish) that UbiSoft could of made a naval warfare game like FS using the same environment, basic code, etc. from their Silent Hunter 3 & 4 games. They already had a world designed and most of the required Atlantic war ship models. I know SSI tried this idea with the Silent Hunter II and Destroyer Command deal (that didn't work out), but this idea could have been great. Imagine playing a FS like game, with SHIII graphics and gameplay. The possiblities would have been endless. Obviously integration with the Silent Hunter III games would have been a choice, so that finally simulation quality sub vs. surface multiplayer would have been possible, but besides that imagine the other possiblities. For example, the SHIII world was already set up for moving convoys of ships, so think of the German/British scenarios possible. A player could have broken out of the North Sea with German ships and actually patrolled for Silent Hunter like Allied convoys and been able to raid them, just like in the real war. That's just one idea.

Well, this last paragraph was just wishful thinking, and I've gone on long enough, but if you can find my question back there and have an answer, I appreciate it. Thanks.

[Warship NWS]

As to anything that can match the combat mechanics detail at present in 3D, no, IMHO nothing else really compares to FS/FSP at this time.

The problem with naval simulations is that it is the low end of the spectrum in terms of effort vs profitability vs complexity of the topic. Proper research of naval combat takes time, which always equals money, and a lot of research materials plus a very good knowledge of combat mechanics as it pertains to naval combat - all of the above can get quite expensive in comparison to your return investment. These reasons have quite a bit to do with why the topic is not covered by mainstream companies. Much easier, cheaper, and less financially riskier to make fancy 3D eye candy models with possibly low end combat mechanics and make one sub, or few subs, very detailed then to address the true nature of naval gunnery combat in high fidelity across the entire spectrum of the simulation. In this sense, the simulation also has a low life span which in turn means a newer fancier rehash of the design can be profited on after the previous design is rendered obsolete by the rapidly changing PC technologies - especially in terms of graphics.

Overall, I have never been a huge fan of 3D as something major has always been sacrificed to gain the "3D" environment in the vast majority of the market. I spoke of this on our WCDB 3D feedback thread here; http://forums.navalwarfare.org//showthread.php?t=579 . I am still looking at the possibility of adding a 3D environment as a possible "game option", basically a switch between 2D and 3D, to WCDB for a future update after v2.0 is released, however, it will not be as a replacement for the loss of other critical features intended for the future of WCDB such as even more detailed combat mechanics, a larger ship database, and other major enhancements.

Hopefully this helps you in some way.

Thanks.

[Ed Rotondaro]

First, let me say that I am a huge fan of World War II simulation games, and even though not all of them were great, I really like SSI's games. I wish they were still around, but more on that later.

I really enjoyed Fighting Steel, and naval warfare is one of my favorite subjects. But, the game has gotten very dated. I can run the game on my system, but the resolution of the game, etc. make it very difficult to use (640x480 graphics on a 19" LCD). Basically, I have one question. As far as I can tell, there isn't any games that closely resemble FS anymore, correct? Are there any games here at NWS that are being produced that are similiar? Or, if not, does anyone know of any similar games out there. I've seen a couple of the turn based games here on this site, but that's not really like FS. You know, I've tried games like Enigma Rising Tide, Battlestations Midway, etc. but those really don't cut it for realism or strategic naval fighting.

If nothing is in development here, I have to ask if that would not be feasible project. Granted, I don't know much about the subject, but you all have done models for the old game in your "expansions" and obviously have knowledge of the source code for the FS, so why not use a more modern 3D tool for ship models, water, etc. and base the overall gameplay of a new game on the original FS. Basically a game like Fighting Steel that was modernized, with a few tweaks here and there would be awesome.

I don't mean to ramble, but also I don't understand why UbiSoft hasn't capitalized on all of SSI's old series. They make new Silent Hunter games, and some flight sims, but not much else in the spirit of the SSI catalog. I would think (and I wish) that UbiSoft could of made a naval warfare game like FS using the same environment, basic code, etc. from their Silent Hunter 3 & 4 games. They already had a world designed and most of the required Atlantic war ship models. I know SSI tried this idea with the Silent Hunter II and Destroyer Command deal (that didn't work out), but this idea could have been great. Imagine playing a FS like game, with SHIII graphics and gameplay. The possiblities would have been endless. Obviously integration with the Silent Hunter III games would have been a choice, so that finally simulation quality sub vs. surface multiplayer would have been possible, but besides that imagine the other possiblities. For example, the SHIII world was already set up for moving convoys of ships, so think of the German/British scenarios possible. A player could have broken out of the North Sea with German ships and actually patrolled for Silent Hunter like Allied convoys and been able to raid them, just like in the real war. That's just one idea.

Well, this last paragraph was just wishful thinking, and I've gone on long enough, but if you can find my question back there and have an answer, I appreciate it. Thanks.

Hi:

Chris has already responded, but I thought I might add that NWS is currently developing a very detailed new naval simulation entitled Navies at War or NAW. You might want to check out the threads on this game to see what is in store in the future.

Regards,

[vipe155]

In this sense, the simulation also has a low life span which in turn means a newer fancier rehash of the design can be profited on after the previous design is rendered obsolete by the rapidly changing PC technologies - especially in terms of graphics.


I agree and know about the fact that this is not a big market genre. Unfortunately many game genres have been pushed out or are basically now non-existent compared to FPS games, etc. This is why I had my idea about Ubisoft using the SH3 or 4 engine. They already had a large amount of the development in place. Plus, if those games (Silent Hunter) were moderately successful, then why not a good companion naval sim?

I do have to disagree with you on the 3D aspect. To me, there is a sort of "ceiling" to 3D graphics. Things can only get so life-like, until graphics look like a photo. Graphics are now to a point where I think rendered by modern standards, they would last much longer than in FS times (Late 90's) because they look so much more like the real thing. I was also just kind of saying that a game that graphically looks decent by modern standards would still be 1000x better than FS.

Personally I don't like turn based games, because in real life no one gets the chance to stop and think in life or in battle. Also, watching little icons on a map battle it out just don't do it either. I liked FS and it's slightly smaller 3D window. It kind of gave you a real world perspective and a "command" center at the same time.

Just a few thoughts...

[Kyle Holgate]

I agree and know about the fact that this is not a big market genre. Unfortunately many game genres have been pushed out or are basically now non-existent compared to FPS games, etc. This is why I had my idea about Ubisoft using the SH3 or 4 engine. They already had a large amount of the development in place. Plus, if those games (Silent Hunter) were moderately successful, then why not a good companion naval sim?

I do have to disagree with you on the 3D aspect. To me, there is a sort of "ceiling" to 3D graphics. Things can only get so life-like, until graphics look like a photo. Graphics are now to a point where I think rendered by modern standards, they would last much longer than in FS times (Late 90's) because they look so much more like the real thing. I was also just kind of saying that a game that graphically looks decent by modern standards would still be 1000x better than FS.

Personally I don't like turn based games, because in real life no one gets the chance to stop and think in life or in battle. Also, watching little icons on a map battle it out just don't do it either. I liked FS and it's slightly smaller 3D window. It kind of gave you a real world perspective and a "command" center at the same time.

Just a few thoughts...

The main issue I see with many 3d games with good graphics such as a fairly new one that deals with modern infantry combat is information overload. As a general in charge you'd have only a fraction of the information and abilities you have playing the game. Even in FS you can "fly" all over the battle area and do far more than an actual squadron commander can do. Speaking for myself here - I think I like the best of both worlds, with a game or simulation that can be paused if you want to - and still give orders. Maybe it can have higher difficulty levels that at some point won't allow any pauses.
Turn based games do have their place IMO - it all depends on the game, what it is simulating and how it's laid out as far as user interface and information displays. I like both kinds, but then again I started out playing board games from the old Avalon Hill company, War at sea, Panzerblitz, etc. Can't do those real time very well! ;)

[old_pop2000]

The main issue I see with many 3d games with good graphics such as a fairly new one that deals with modern infantry combat is information overload. As a general in charge you'd have only a fraction of the information and abilities you have playing the game. Even in FS you can "fly" all over the battle area and do far more than an actual squadron commander can do. Speaking for myself here - I think I like the best of both worlds, with a game or simulation that can be paused if you want to - and still give orders. Maybe it can have higher difficulty levels that at some point won't allow any pauses.
Turn based games do have their place IMO - it all depends on the game, what it is simulating and how it's laid out as far as user interface and information displays. I like both kinds, but then again I started out playing board games from the old Avalon Hill company, War at sea, Panzerblitz, etc. Can't do those real time very well! ;)


Kyle:
In igougo games, I have always liked the camera view where you can turn the battlefield and get a different view. Of course, in strategy and tactical games, that is unrealistic but it would be nice for the game to allow you to see what an aircraft flying over the battlefield would see. I.E. if you send over a Fiesler Storch for recon, you should be able to view the gameboard. I would also like to see the Google Earth type of view where you can lower your viewpoint and see the terrain as if you were looking through binoculars. I don't know if any of the igougo games do that.

[Von Smeed]

Pacific Storm and Pacific Storm:Allies are good WW2 Naval games and with the editor you can create just about any Naval Battle you want, the game is in 3D, and support very high resolutions, as you can even see crew on the decks if you wish!

[vipe155]

Yeah, I've tried Pacific Storm, and it almost gets close to Fighting Steel. It's probably the closest thing out there. I do find it a little difficult to handle interface wise, and for some reason the graphics look very fuzzy to me, even with everything cranked to the max. I don't know what it is, because the screenshots of the game I have seen look better than what I am getting.

[cj95]

Have you tried Storm Eagles Distant Guns? Or the soon to be released Jutland?

3d Dreadnought combat from the early 20th century and World War I

[Antonin]

Pacific Storm and Pacific Storm:Allies are good WW2 Naval games and with the editor you can create just about any Naval Battle you want, the game is in 3D, and support very high resolutions, as you can even see crew on the decks if you wish!

One of the problems I have with 3D games is system requirements. The graphics card and processor I have were decent when I got my computer, which was about 3 years ago. But I doubt that they could handle the current crop of 3D games. And I'm just not willing to buy a new computer just yet. I have no desire to deal with Vista, and there are other priorities--mortgage, heating the house, helping relative with healthcare costs, etc etc.