Multiple Units Firing On Same Target

[Saffron]

I don't think this is a bug, per se, but sometimes it can be a bit frustrating. It seems the the AI just doesn't like to have more than one unit firing on the same target.

Playing Thailand, I got into a gunnery duel with an enemy ship and I started to lose. So I launched some SH-60Bs from the Chakri Nareubet loaded with ASMs. I ordered both helos to fire ASMs, one missile was fired.

Then I noticed that my ship stopped firing its gun. When I re-ordered the ship to resume firing, it shot one salvo and then a helo fired another missile. The ship stopped firing again. When I again ordered the ship to fire its gun, it fired once, a helo fired another ASM, and the ship stopped firing.

This just seemed rather bizarre behavior.

[Fleet Command CC]

Hey Saffron

I have had this myself, and then other times I have had three warships fire about 5 SAMs each at one incoming missile.

I know changing the setting in the options menu can help some times.

[Saffron]

Well in the majority of cases, it's probably pretty good that the AI seems to avoid having two units engage the same target ... nothing worse than wasting 3 or 4 AIM-120Cs on one aircraft when there's a good chance the first will hit.

But when dealing with those nasty AIM-7s, though, I like to have at least two aircraft launch missiles in case the first aircraft is destroyed, causing the AIM-7 to "poof" into the ether. My pilots usually ignore me when I order that to happen. One launched and the other waits around to see if the first missile hits.

[Fleet Command CC]

nothing worse than wasting 3 or 4 AIM-120Cs on one aircraft

Yep I find the wasting of missiles is the biggest bug for me, so that's why I made a few missile that would 99% of time hit their targets.


But when dealing with those nasty AIM-7s, though, I like to have at least two aircraft launch missiles in case the first aircraft is destroyed, causing the AIM-7 to "poof" into the ether. My pilots usually ignore me when I order that to happen. One launched and the other waits around to see if the first missile hits.

I have found sometimes getting the timing right can help with this, but Mike D might have a better idea to get this to work in the game.

[Mike D]

Well in the majority of cases, it's probably pretty good that the AI seems to avoid having two units engage the same target ... nothing worse than wasting 3 or 4 AIM-120Cs on one aircraft when there's a good chance the first will hit.

But when dealing with those nasty AIM-7s, though, I like to have at least two aircraft launch missiles in case the first aircraft is destroyed, causing the AIM-7 to "poof" into the ether. My pilots usually ignore me when I order that to happen. One launched and the other waits around to see if the first missile hits.

I haven't seen an issue of multiple AAM's firing at an aircraft to any great extent, how many of any weapon is fired is based on the game engines calculation of how many of the weapon used it will take to kill the target. But it limits the launches to groups of 8 weapons at a time. Some of the problem comes in when the target is unidentified. Numerious times I've launched TLAMs at a target that would require 3-4 TLAMs to kill but the game engine launches 12+. Same for aircraft, I've seen 3-4 missiles launched at an unidentified aircraft but very very rarely. I doubt I can do anything about it, but I'll look into it.

Not sure what you mean by your AIM-7's going "poof." But if the launching aircraft is killed or turns away far enough the target aircraft is outside the launching aircrafts radar cone then the missile will self-destruct. That's real world. The AIM-7 relies on the launching aircrafts radar for guidance.

[Saffron]

Not sure what you mean by your AIM-7's going "poof." But if the launching aircraft is killed or turns away far enough the target aircraft is outside the launching aircrafts radar cone then the missile will self-destruct. That's real world. The AIM-7 relies on the launching aircrafts radar for guidance.

When I said going "poof" I simply meant that if the launching aircraft loses radar lock on the target the AIM-7 will "poof" (just a descriptive way of saying 'self destruct'). I don't find AIM-7s to be that reliable even when radar lock is maintained.

That's why I usually want to launch several missiles from more than one aircraft. Usually though I can only get one aircraft to launch one missile. This gets rather hairy when I'm watching STK aircraft approaching my airbase. At that point, wasting missiles is less of a concern than having my airbase suppressed by enemy aircraft.

I've heard that, in the real world, pilots often ripple-fired AIM-7s due to their unreliability, but I have a very difficult time doing that in FC. The AI tends to be rather conservative with AAMs (not so much with SSMs, though ... I've frequently seen the AI launch 8-10 SSMs at a lone PCFG).

[Mike D]

When I said going "poof" I simply meant that if the launching aircraft loses radar lock on the target the AIM-7 will "poof" (just a descriptive way of saying 'self destruct'). I don't find AIM-7s to be that reliable even when radar lock is maintained.

The PK rate of the AIM-7 hasn't been real good, if I remember right it was about 10-15% during Vietnam and about 40% during Desert Storm. Not real impressive. Yet the PK for the RIM-7, naval SAM version, is supposed to be around 70+%. Yet they are the same basic missile firing at similar targets. Go figure. Maybe the ship borne radar is better/stronger/???

[Warship NWS]

The PK rate of the AIM-7 hasn't been real good, if I remember right it was about 10-15% during Vietnam and about 40% during Desert Storm. Not real impressive. Yet the PK for the RIM-7, naval SAM version, is supposed to be around 70+%. Yet they are the same basic missile firing at similar targets. Go figure. Maybe the ship borne radar is better/stronger/???

Depends on what your shooting at and which model of RIM-7 it is you referring to.

[Saffron]

While we're on the topic of AAM PK chances, I've been wondering about something:

I haven't experimented much in 19.01, but in 18.01, Russian AAMs were dismally unreliable. The only one that really worried me was the R-60, but their long range missiles almost always missed. Is this accurate? I'm mostly talking the R-73s, R-24s and R-27s.

[DHX]

I've sent 4 Mig 25s against a single B-52 and had every single missile miss. That's why they don't call them "hittiles" I guess.



I've also had some problems with AIM-7s. If you want to launch two AIM 7s and try to launch a second the first disappears. If I remember correctly at one time the PK of sparrow missiles was so low that a ripple shot of 2 or more was standard practice. It would be nice to be able to launch more than one. Even if you have two birds with AIM 7s when you try to order both to launch one will self destruct the missile because the first shooter will try to launch instead of the aircraft you actually direct to launch. It's that way with all missiles though. It seems if you ask for multiple aircraft launch one will assume the shooter role while the rest hold their fire. It's not as bad with AIM-120s though since you can launch multiple missiles. It is annoying though if you're trying to divide up missile shots and keep aircraft in the air.

Something else I've noticed is that for some reason the AI seems to get better kill probabilities than the player does. For example when I'm using SU-30s or SU-27s they seem to be much less deadly than when I'm defending against them. Or maybe I just suck ;)

[Sea Dragon]

The AI does seem to get more PK in its favour than the player. I have also noted that getting subs to launch missiles in tandum with the fleet is almost bleeding impossible.

Situation is this. I have launch about 32 Harpoon from a US battle fleet, i have 2 Sea wolf who are in range with both SSM missiles. I have already brought them up to firing depth so i simply have to launch the missiles as the first of my fleet born SSM's reach the radial range of the Sea wolfs from the enemy fleet. No problem. As they approach i select a target and fire.....nothing happens, i try with the other one and then alternate targets while trying to stay calm. Nothing happens at all. I have the enemy fleet painted with AWAC's, electronic warfare and the airborne radars of the f-18's and f-14's doing CAP for electronic warfare.


5 minutes later the subs fire.....its infuriating. Really infuriating. Subs don't want to seem to fire more than 6 missiles......At any one time, i could handle 6 or even 4 at a target as you can just use them in tandem or select targets close together to achieve swamping of the defenses.

[Warship NWS]

5 minutes later the subs fire.....its infuriating. Really infuriating. Subs don't want to seem to fire more than 6 missiles......At any one time, i could handle 6 or even 4 at a target as you can just use them in tandem or select targets close together to achieve swamping of the defenses.


Just curious.. not really following this thread myself, which subs and missiles are we talking about here?

[Sea Dragon]

UGM 84C and UGM 109B, obviously UGM 109B is well in range if i can fire Harpoon at his fleet.

[Warship NWS]

UGM 84C and UGM 109B, obviously UGM 109B is well in range if i can fire Harpoon at his fleet.

Which sub is firing these missiles?

[Ed Rotondaro]

When I said going "poof" I simply meant that if the launching aircraft loses radar lock on the target the AIM-7 will "poof" (just a descriptive way of saying 'self destruct'). I don't find AIM-7s to be that reliable even when radar lock is maintained.

That's why I usually want to launch several missiles from more than one aircraft. Usually though I can only get one aircraft to launch one missile. This gets rather hairy when I'm watching STK aircraft approaching my airbase. At that point, wasting missiles is less of a concern than having my airbase suppressed by enemy aircraft.

I've heard that, in the real world, pilots often ripple-fired AIM-7s due to their unreliability, but I have a very difficult time doing that in FC. The AI tends to be rather conservative with AAMs (not so much with SSMs, though ... I've frequently seen the AI launch 8-10 SSMs at a lone PCFG).

Saffron:

I thought that the AIM-7's reliability had been improved from debut in Viet Nam? Maybe pilots rely more on AIM-120 AMRAAM these days. Does the game include this missile as a n option?

[Warship NWS]

Saffron:

I thought that the AIM-7's reliability had been improved from debut in Viet Nam? Maybe pilots rely more on AIM-120 AMRAAM these days. Does the game include this missile as a n option?

Many things can effect the accuracy of an AAM/SAM.. and note also there are various versions of the AIM/RIM-7s.. its not just one constant missile starting from Nam to present day. The missile has been upgraded several times through its lifespan.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Many things can effect the accuracy of an AAM/SAM.. and note also there are various versions of the AIM/RIM-7s.. its not just one constant missile starting from Nam to present day. The missile has been upgraded several times through its lifespan.

Chris:

Would this be software upgrades, or actual hardware fixes to the missiles? Or was the radar guidance tweaked? Or all of the above?;)

[Warship NWS]

Chris:

Would this be software upgrades, or actual hardware fixes to the missiles? Or was the radar guidance tweaked? Or all of the above?;)

Upgrades vary .. it can be guidance packages, FCRs, warheads, airframes, ECCM, etc.

[DHX]

I ran across some figures on missile performance the other day. They're from strategypage so take them with a grain of salt.


"The Sidewinder relies on a heat seeker to detect and follow the target. Initially, the jet exhaust of the enemy aircraft was the heat source. Years of small improvements made it possible for the seeker go after smaller amounts of heat. The first Sidewinders, which entered service 51 years ago, scored a hit about 12 percent of the time. This rose to 16 percent in the 1970s, and by the 1980s, major improvements in the guidance system, got that up to 80 percent. Over 110,000 Sidewinders have been produced so far. It's the most successful air-to-air missile, with at least 270 kills. In 1958, the Sidewinder scored its first kill against a Chinese MiG-17. The first Sidewinder (AIM-9B) was 9.28 feet long, weighed 156 pounds and had a max range of five kilometers . The most current one, half a century later (AIM-9X) is 9.5 feet long, weighs 191 pounds and has a max range of 18 kilometers. The latest version can go after the target from all angles, while the AIM-9B could only be used from directly behind the target. The AIM-9X is about seven times more likely to bring down the target than the AIM-9B" and


"Turkey recently bought 107 AIM-120 AMRAAM radar guided missiles for $1.47 million each. This missile entered service in 1992, more than 30 years after the first radar guided air-to-air missile (the AIM-7 Sparrow). Vietnam provided ample evidence that AIM-7 wasn't really ready for prime time. Too many things could go wrong. Several versions later, the AIM-7 got another combat test during the 1991 Gulf War. While 88 AIM 7s were launched, with only 28 percent scored a hit. The AIM 9 Sidewinder did worse, with 97 fired and only 12.6 percent making contact. That said, most of these hits could not have been obtained with cannon, especially when the AIM 7 was used against a target that was trying to get away. AMRAAM was designed to fix all the reliability and ease-of-use problems that cursed the AIM-7. But AMRAAM has only had a few opportunities to be used in combat, and over half of those launched have hit something. AMRAAM weighs 335 pounds, is 12 feet long and 178mm in diameter. AMRAAM has a max range of 70 kilometers."