US destroyer watching hijacked ship off Somalia

[old_pop2000]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_re_af/af_somalia_piracy

[Ed Rotondaro]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_re_af/af_somalia_piracy

Dennis:

Do you think there is a USN SEAL Team waiting for a little practice? These guys must be dumber than ditch carp to be pulling this stuff with the US and the Russians around. Time to cull the herd.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

Do you think there is a USN SEAL Team waiting for a little practice? These guys must be dumber than ditch carp to be pulling this stuff with the US and the Russians around. Time to cull the herd.

The issue is that the ship is Ukrainian property, so you can't just put a MK 48 into it. Also, if you board it without permission from the Ukraine, that is invading sovereign Ukrainian territory. All these factors tend to make us a little careful. Another issue is that Somalia hasn't had a working government since 1991. IMHO, let the Ukrainians solve the issue, it's their tanks. Maybe they should have sent some wheat instead of T-72 tanks.;)

I wouldn't risk any of our folks for a load of old Ukrainian tanks.

[Fleet Command CC]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_re_af/af_somalia_piracy

They must have been mad trying to pull this off with Navy ships in the area. :confused: It's like going back to the days of the ( Man or War) ships, it might mean countries will have to start escorting there trade ships with Navy ships to stop these pirates.

[old_pop2000]

They must have been mad trying to pull this off with Navy ships in the area. :confused:


They did it, didn't they! We are just standing off the coast watching it. We haven't done anything yet so it looks to me that it was a well executed hijacking.

[Fleet Command CC]

well executed hijacking

Yep that's true but with there been a U.S. destroyer, there I would think they will give themselves up if they have got any brains, but them being pirates probably not. Fire a few shot's of the main gun that will till the pirates US Navy won't let them have their prize, well it did in Nelson day give hm a full broad side and brow them out the water. :D

[Scott Chisholm]

When you consider modern pirates, you must think of them as you would drug lords. They are well organized, dedicated, and ruthless.

Executing a VBSS (Visit-Board-Search-Siezure) or hostile take down of a captured ship will most likely result in the death of most of the ship's crew. We could do it, but it would be bloody.

As previously stated, this is Ukrainian territory and consequently their problem. We'd be fools to insert ourselves in the repatriation of that ship.

In my most humblest of opinions.

[old_pop2000]

When you consider modern pirates, you must think of them as you would drug lords. They are well organized, dedicated, and ruthless.

Executing a VBSS (Visit-Board-Search-Siezure) or hostile take down of a captured ship will most likely result in the death of most of the ship's crew. We could do it, but it would be bloody.

As previously stated, this is Ukrainian territory and consequently their problem. We'd be fools to insert ourselves in the repatriation of that ship.

In my most humblest of opinions.

As the song goes "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run." The Ukrainian's want to be a sovereign country. Well, this is one of the perk's, defending ones territory. This is a good time to start learning, with one of the experts standing by to help.:D

[Fleet Command CC]

As previously stated, this is Ukrainian territory and consequently their problem. We'd be fools to insert ourselves in the repatriation of that ship.

Yep that is very true, I'm a bit gun go, that why I said what I said in the other post, its a good job I'm not the Captain of the destroyer, I should have been born 200 years ago my way work back then. :D

Get Delta Force or the SAS on the ship and they will take out these pirates:D:cool::D, but only with the permission from Ukrainian government.

[Fleet Command CC]

As the song goes "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run." The Ukrainian's want to be a sovereign country. Well, this is one of the perk's, defending ones territory. This is a good time to start learning, with one of the experts standing by to help.:D

Yep when another country is willing to help you, with a problem you should take that help with a smile and a big thank you, but this is only my a opinion. :)

[old_pop2000]

The best way to handle situations like this, is to remember that pirates are criminals; ordinary thugs. They are organized like the Mafia, so send in the policemen, like the FBI, CIA, Ukrainian Secret Police, Interpol, Mi6 etc. Send in the policemen, let them start gathering intelligence, identifying who are the leaders, charting the organizations and find the bankers. Follow the money, it will lead you to the source, then cut off the heads and the body will die. Just like you take down any criminal organization. This is a job for cops, not soldiers.

[john964]

The best way to handle situations like this, is to remember that pirates are criminals; ordinary thugs. They are organized like the Mafia, so send in the policemen, like the FBI, CIA, Ukrainian Secret Police, Interpol, Mi6 etc. Send in the policemen, let them start gathering intelligence, identifying who are the leaders, charting the organizations and find the bankers. Follow the money, it will lead you to the source, then cut off the heads and the body will die. Just like you take down any criminal organization. This is a job for cops, not soldiers.
Most of these pirate attacks are targets of oppertunity I dont think that they knew what they were getting when they hit this ship. From what I have read the ship is carring a cargo of T-72 MBT and spare parts. Now short of a port facility with heavy lift cranes these tanks are nice static displays. The ship contained no main gun ammo.

[john964]

Throgh out the world there are several area were piracy happens frequently. They are the Horn of Africa, Indonisia and Malaysia, South China Sea, Caribbean Sea, The Skeleton Coast of Africa. The first two is were large cargo ships are hit the rest are almost always fishing boats hitting each other or pleasure boats.

[old_pop2000]

Most of these pirate attacks are targets of oppertunity I dont think that they knew what they were getting when they hit this ship. From what I have read the ship is carring a cargo of T-72 MBT and spare parts. Now short of a port facility with heavy lift cranes these tanks are nice static displays. The ship contained no main gun ammo.

I believe you are correct. I doubt they had any knowledge of the cargo, it was just a target.

[Ed Rotondaro]

They must have been mad trying to pull this off with Navy ships in the area. :confused: It's like going back to the days of the ( Man or War) ships, it might mean countries will have to start escorting there trade ships with Navy ships to stop these pirates.

Fleet:

On a previous thread, Dennis initiated a discussion of littoral warfare scenarios. This is one of the things he predicted. Smart man Old-Pop eh? I wonder if the Ukraine will ask the USN for assistance on this.

[Ed Rotondaro]

As the song goes "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run." The Ukrainian's want to be a sovereign country. Well, this is one of the perk's, defending ones territory. This is a good time to start learning, with one of the experts standing by to help.:D

Dennis:

I say let them land the stuff and then hit them hard. And to hell with Somalia. Shoot any of the bastards that look at us wrong. Nobody is going to complain about a few dead thugs.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Yep that is very true, I'm a bit gun go, that why I said what I said in the other post, its a good job I'm not the Captain of the destroyer, I should have been born 200 years ago my way work back then. :D

Get Delta Force or the SAS on the ship and they will take out these pirates:D:cool::D, but only with the permission from Ukrainian government.


Fleet:

SAS or SBS would have those fools dead in five minutes.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Most of these pirate attacks are targets of oppertunity I dont think that they knew what they were getting when they hit this ship. From what I have read the ship is carring a cargo of T-72 MBT and spare parts. Now short of a port facility with heavy lift cranes these tanks are nice static displays. The ship contained no main gun ammo.

John:

Exactly. Like where the hell are they going to unload those tanks? Unless the plan is ransom them back to whoever bought them in the first place.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I say let them land the stuff and then hit them hard. And to hell with Somalia. Shoot any of the bastards that look at us wrong. Nobody is going to complain about a few dead thugs.

Ed:
They can't move the stuff themselves and they can't unload since there is no dock facilities with cranes large enough to lift items of that size and weight. They will sell the ship and it's cargo on the black market and let that entity, who ever it is, sail it to an unknown port. Simple but effective. The crew will be released after the ship reaches its last destination or...... they will disappear.

[Campy]

Exactly. Like where the hell are they going to unload those tanks? Unless the plan is ransom them back to whoever bought them in the first place.

Iran? The Kenyans, who purchased the tanks, have stated they will not deal with the pirates. That is what they stated, anyway. Question, although the ship is technically Ukrainian territory, Ukraine has lost control of it to the pirates. Does that not free others to seize it away from the criminals.

Frank

[William Miller]

The best way to handle situations like this, is to remember that pirates are criminals; ordinary thugs. They are organized like the Mafia, so send in the policemen, like the FBI, CIA, Ukrainian Secret Police, Interpol, Mi6 etc. Send in the policemen, let them start gathering intelligence, identifying who are the leaders, charting the organizations and find the bankers. Follow the money, it will lead you to the source, then cut off the heads and the body will die. Just like you take down any criminal organization. This is a job for cops, not soldiers.

I must say I am suprised by the above statement and must disagree with it for a number of reasons:

1) Police forces are in no manner equipped to deal with the heavily armed fractions that control the nations in this area (i.e. Somalia). Also, the CIA is not a law-enforcement (i.e. police) agency, they are a spy/intelligence agency -- but even national intelligence agencies have great difficulty in mounting effective operations in this area because of the volatile nature of the region.
2) The police forces mentioned have no legal authority to enter or act within the boundries of the nations involved - -they would need some sort of agreement with the legal government(s) of the states involved, and that is not going to happen for a number of reasons. We have sent the FBI to investigate crimes and terrorism in states with which we have formal relations and which granted permission to do so, but this will simply not happen in the states in this area.
3) In order for police to be effective they generally need the cooperation of at least a portion of the local populace, and that is not going to happen.

[old_pop2000]

Iran? The Kenyans, who purchased the tanks, have stated they will not deal with the pirates. That is what they stated, anyway. Question, although the ship is technically Ukrainian territory, Ukraine has lost control of it to the pirates. Does that not free others to seize it away from the criminals.

Frank

FYI

United Nations Convention to the Laws of the Sea.



Article92

Status of ships

1. Ships shall sail under the flag of one State only and, save in exceptional cases expressly provided for in international treaties or in this Convention, shall be subject to its exclusive jurisdiction on the high seas. A ship may not change its flag during a voyage or while in a port of call, save in the case of a real transfer of ownership or change of registry.

Article104

Retention or loss of the nationality of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft may retain its nationality although it has become a pirate ship or aircraft. The retention or loss of nationality is determined by the law of the State from which such nationality was derived


Does that answer the question?

[old_pop2000]

Gentlemen:
This thread is becoming interesting provided we stay far afield of politics. I think we can discuss international reactions and options to the threat of piracy, international law but politics is verboten by the MIB, so let's observe that restriction.

Thanks

[old_pop2000]

I must say I am surprised by the above statement and must disagree with it for a number of reasons:

1) Police forces are in no manner equipped to deal with the heavily armed fractions that control the nations in this area (i.e. Somalia). Also, the CIA is not a law-enforcement (i.e. police) agency, they are a spy/intelligence agency -- but even national intelligence agencies have great difficulty in mounting effective operations in this area because of the volatile nature of the region.
2) The police forces mentioned have no legal authority to enter or act within the boundaries of the nations involved - -they would need some sort of agreement with the legal government(s) of the states involved, and that is not going to happen for a number of reasons. We have sent the FBI to investigate crimes and terrorism in states with which we have formal relations and which granted permission to do so, but this will simply not happen in the states in this area.
3) In order for police to be effective they generally need the cooperation of at least a portion of the local populace, and that is not going to happen.


The police forces of the world have been working together against the terrorist factions and are having good success. They do have the legal authority as per the UN agreements and the agreements between states provided notification and cooperation are observed.

Most terrorism and piracy experts agree that the military is not equipped to deal with such factions plus they are far too noticeable. This does not prevent the military from assisting when requested. But to deal with these types of factions, attacks on their financing and organizational structure are far more effective than sending in SEALS, Delta Force or an MEU.

This seems counter intuitive, but it is none the less, a fact. CT units from around the world, cooperating together along with stronger action internally by governments will go much farther than preemptive strikes or actions after the fact.

[William Miller]

Dennis,

I am not addressing the world in general, I am specifically addressing the piracy situation from basically failed nation-states such as Somalia. I do believe the majority of piracy originates from areas that are lawless -- no law enforcement agency in its right mind would send in a police force to attempt arrest/capture of the leadership of the pirates in such areas even if they know who they are. In reality it does not matter what the UN says or what international law says if no one in the area is either able or willing to enforce such rules.

Tasking the CIA or other intelligence organizations to take them out might be possible, but a) nitpicking here, that is not "policing", and b) it appears not to work in many cases as the bad guys simply fill the void with another leader. Your 'Mafia' analogy however is apt in one way: you must take the entire organization apart (not just a couple of leaders) to actually cripple such organizations. This is almost impossible to achieve in these areas by purely police action, as such piracy is many times committed by factions that are as (or better) well-armed than whatever government exists in the region, or in areas where the local government is unfriendly with those nations of the world that wishes to curtail piracy, or possibly even in league with the faction(s) in question.

I am not advocating that military action is the only or even complete answer -- the best approach I suspect lies in the dual track of both political (i.e. creating the conditions for a stable and lawful government in the area), and putting into action an international (military-based with certain police and intelligence assets as well) anti-piracy force that is allowed to operate effectively.

[Campy]

A ship or aircraft may retain its nationality although it has become a pirate ship or aircraft. The retention or loss of nationality is determined by the law of the State from which such nationality was derived

Does that answer the question?

I take it then that police action would require a request by the Ukrainian government, and that the ship must be returned to them after recapture?

Frank

[Scott Chisholm]

I take it then that police action would require a request by the Ukrainian government, and that the ship must be returned to them after recapture?

Frank

Yep. Any other action would in itself be considered either an act of piracy or an act of aggression.

You don't want us taking down this ship, even with Ukrainian approval. If any Ukrainian national dies, we'll be blamed. If we lose a bunch of folks in the attempt, we'll be criticized on the home front, and ridiculed overseas.

We do not need this headache.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis,

I am not addressing the world in general, I am specifically addressing the piracy situation from basically failed nation-states such as Somalia. I do believe the majority of piracy originates from areas that are lawless -- no law enforcement agency in its right mind would send in a police force to attempt arrest/capture of the leadership of the pirates in such areas even if they know who they are. In reality it does not matter what the UN says or what international law says if no one in the area is either able or willing to enforce such rules.

Tasking the CIA or other intelligence organizations to take them out might be possible, but a) nitpicking here, that is not "policing", and b) it appears not to work in many cases as the bad guys simply fill the void with another leader. Your 'Mafia' analogy however is apt in one way: you must take the entire organization apart (not just a couple of leaders) to actually cripple such organizations. This is almost impossible to achieve in these areas by purely police action, as such piracy is many times committed by factions that are as (or better) well-armed than whatever government exists in the region, or in areas where the local government is unfriendly with those nations of the world that wishes to curtail piracy, or possibly even in league with the faction(s) in question.

I am not advocating that military action is the only or even complete answer -- the best approach I suspect lies in the dual track of both political (i.e. creating the conditions for a stable and lawful government in the area), and putting into action an international (military-based with certain police and intelligence assets as well) anti-piracy force that is allowed to operate effectively.

William:
I understand but I am suggesting that piracy and terrorism are related. The problem in Somalia was created by our precipitous withdrawal, leaving a power vacuum that local African states have not filled or attempted to solve. Again, the idea of using the military to solve all of our international problems is a failed idea. But I am concerned that I am slipping into politics, and I don't want to initiate that kind of discussion.

In Somalia and other locations like the Gulf of Aden or the Gulf of Oman, the piracy is definitely been traced to terrorist organizations using ransom to provide funds for other operations. The only solution is political, economic, and a modest amount of military force consisting of local African Union troops backed up by UN forces to provide a stable environment. Then the rival factions can attempt to solve the differences and eliminate the terrorists and pirates. However, the best method is to use international banking and communications to follow the money and intercept the communications links. We have to use interpol, Europol, and many other intrastate and interstate police forces along with CT units like the Nigeria CT unit, the CT unit from MI5, the CIA, possibly the CT unit from the FBI, the French DGSE, The German Secret Police, and many others.

Since 1968, Rand Corp. tracked and documented 628 terrorist groups. Of those 628, 43% ended due to politics. Essentially, they joined the process instead of fighting it. 40% were ended due to police actions. Police and intelligence forces have better intelligence and training to penetrate these terrorist organizations than the military. They have better relations with the locals and understand the requirements of those same people far better than any outside military force. Finally, of those 628, only 7% were ended by military force. Even with our modern precision weapons and UCAV's, the use of military force usually alienates the local population and pushes them closer to the pirates and terrorists.

Just an interesting figure. Of the 62% of the terrorist groups that have ended since 1968, only 32% of the religious based groups have ended. Religious groups take much more time to end, than strictly political groups. The latter usually have limited political goals and when met, cease to exist.

I agree with you about the lawless areas being a breeding ground for pirates and terrorists. In order to solve that issue, we must bring in the nations in the area and the UN to bring about stability using economic aid and a stable government, then allow the international police forces to clean up the remaining pirates and terrorists. Usually, they simply fade away.
But unbridled military power has almost never succeeded. This is true throughout history.

Thanks for the inputs. It is always nice to get your opinions, whether I agree with them or not.;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Iran? The Kenyans, who purchased the tanks, have stated they will not deal with the pirates. That is what they stated, anyway. Question, although the ship is technically Ukrainian territory, Ukraine has lost control of it to the pirates. Does that not free others to seize it away from the criminals.

Frank

Campy:

A good question and one that the courts need to answer. Pirates have always been afraid of strong governments that wax their butts when they get out of line. Where's Honor Harrington when we need her? (Shameless plug for David Weber's sci-fi series).

[Ed Rotondaro]

I must say I am suprised by the above statement and must disagree with it for a number of reasons:

1) Police forces are in no manner equipped to deal with the heavily armed fractions that control the nations in this area (i.e. Somalia). Also, the CIA is not a law-enforcement (i.e. police) agency, they are a spy/intelligence agency -- but even national intelligence agencies have great difficulty in mounting effective operations in this area because of the volatile nature of the region.
2) The police forces mentioned have no legal authority to enter or act within the boundries of the nations involved - -they would need some sort of agreement with the legal government(s) of the states involved, and that is not going to happen for a number of reasons. We have sent the FBI to investigate crimes and terrorism in states with which we have formal relations and which granted permission to do so, but this will simply not happen in the states in this area.
3) In order for police to be effective they generally need the cooperation of at least a portion of the local populace, and that is not going to happen.


William:

You are still at the top of your game sir. Bingo!

[john964]

The best way to handle situations like this, is to remember that pirates are criminals; ordinary thugs. They are organized like the Mafia, so send in the policemen, like the FBI, CIA, Ukrainian Secret Police, Interpol, Mi6 etc. Send in the policemen, let them start gathering intelligence, identifying who are the leaders, charting the organizations and find the bankers. Follow the money, it will lead you to the source, then cut off the heads and the body will die. Just like you take down any criminal organization. This is a job for cops, not soldiers.There are no police agencey's that are equiped for maritime bording except for the various coast gaurds. (ie USCG) But they are ill equiped or trained to covertly board a ship or board a ship under fire or perform rescue operation. Could the USCG deputize a USN SEAL team.

[Fleet Command CC]

Fleet:

On a previous thread, Dennis initiated a discussion of littoral warfare scenarios. This is one of the things he predicted.Smart man Old-Pop eh?

He must be able to see into the future. :D


I wonder if the Ukraine will ask the USN for assistance on this.

Probably not because the Russia are coming now.

[Fleet Command CC]

Fleet:

SAS or SBS would have those fools dead in five minutes.

Dam right they would knok them out no probs. ;)

[Fleet Command CC]

There are no police agencey's that are equiped for maritime bording except for the various coast gaurds. (ie USCG) But they are ill equiped or trained to covertly board a ship or board a ship under fire or perform rescue operation. Could the USCG deputize a USN SEAL team.

Yep that's why I said get Delta Force or the SAS on the job it would be over in no time. :)

[William Miller]

Gents,

As I see it there are two issues here: 1) preventing the actual acts of piracy and rescuing ships taken by pirates (the short-term solution), and 2) shutting down in a permanent manner the operations of the pirates themselves along with their backers/supporters (the long-term solution). As I and others have pointed out dealing with issue #1 almost certainly requires the involvment of actual military and intelligence units (navy, special forces, HRUs, CIA, etc) -- there is no way any police force can carry that duty out. Solving #2 likely requires a combination of (at least the threat of) international use of force and the forced implementation of real political change in the regions where the piracy originates from.

What we need is a full-spectrum approach to the issue, not the ad-hoc one we currently have. Create a semi-permament international anti-piracy force that is trained and tasked with deterring/dealing with piracy, and is pre-authorised by as many nations as possible to act. This would help cover issue #1. The solution to issue #2 is far, far more difficult as I pointed out before, and involves so much politics that I will not sink into that morass here.

[old_pop2000]

Gents,

As I see it there are two issues here: 1) preventing the actual acts of piracy and rescuing ships taken by pirates (the short-term solution), and 2) shutting down in a permament manner the operations of the pirates themselves along with their backers/supporters (the long-term solution). As I and others have pointed out dealing with issue #1 almost certainly requires the involvment of actual military and intelligence units (navy, special forces, HRUs, CIA, etc) -- there is no way any police force can carry that duty out. Solving #2 likely requires a combination of (at least the threat of) international use of force and the forced implementation of real political change in the regions where the piracy originates from.

What we need is a full-spectrum approach to the issue, not the ad-hoc one we currently have. Create a semi-permament international anti-piracy force that is trained and tasked with deterring/dealing with piracy, and is pre-authorised by as many nations as possible to act. This would help cover issue #1. The solution to issue #2 is far, far more difficult as I pointed out before, and involves so much politics that I will not sink into that morass here.


I agree that we need a full-spectrum approach, but international police forces along with CT units need to take the lead, then provide the military with concrete, attainable targeting and goals. International banking and communications operations need to be involved. I am not going to into the political morass either.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Gents,

As I see it there are two issues here: 1) preventing the actual acts of piracy and rescuing ships taken by pirates (the short-term solution), and 2) shutting down in a permanent manner the operations of the pirates themselves along with their backers/supporters (the long-term solution). As I and others have pointed out dealing with issue #1 almost certainly requires the involvment of actual military and intelligence units (navy, special forces, HRUs, CIA, etc) -- there is no way any police force can carry that duty out. Solving #2 likely requires a combination of (at least the threat of) international use of force and the forced implementation of real political change in the regions where the piracy originates from.

What we need is a full-spectrum approach to the issue, not the ad-hoc one we currently have. Create a semi-permament international anti-piracy force that is trained and tasked with deterring/dealing with piracy, and is pre-authorised by as many nations as possible to act. This would help cover issue #1. The solution to issue #2 is far, far more difficult as I pointed out before, and involves so much politics that I will not sink into that morass here.

William:

I agree, regime change has proved to be a difficult task to accomplish.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Gents,

As I see it there are two issues here: 1) preventing the actual acts of piracy and rescuing ships taken by pirates (the short-term solution), and 2) shutting down in a permanent manner the operations of the pirates themselves along with their backers/supporters (the long-term solution). As I and others have pointed out dealing with issue #1 almost certainly requires the involvment of actual military and intelligence units (navy, special forces, HRUs, CIA, etc) -- there is no way any police force can carry that duty out. Solving #2 likely requires a combination of (at least the threat of) international use of force and the forced implementation of real political change in the regions where the piracy originates from.

What we need is a full-spectrum approach to the issue, not the ad-hoc one we currently have. Create a semi-permament international anti-piracy force that is trained and tasked with deterring/dealing with piracy, and is pre-authorised by as many nations as possible to act. This would help cover issue #1. The solution to issue #2 is far, far more difficult as I pointed out before, and involves so much politics that I will not sink into that morass here.

Hi NWS,

I don't disagree with your analysis, but will quibble with your solution. Option #2 is too complicated and too expensive. Cultural and political differences may hamper the operation of an international force and limits ability to act decisively. There are a number of governments in that region that turn a blind eye, if not profit from the operations of these guys. Police officers mean complicated rules, court room issues, "technicalities", and endless appeals, not mention prison escapes ala the USS Cole. This is a military problem best dealt with VT and not Miranda. Once at sea, these pirates fall under a different set of rules and can be dealt with decisively......on our terms. Survivors can go to the Hague or go back to their native countries.

Laws and courts are great and work well within the bubble of civilization, outside of the bubble it's a different set of rules. I think Ed, got it right when he said no one would really care how they were dealt with or what "rules" might have been bent. I think most of the world would cheer as they did after Entebbe.

I'm not trying to be cavalier here about "rights and "rules or uneccessarily blood thirsty. As a police officer for over 20 years I have the greatest respect for the system even with it's problems. But I also know what a thin reed "international law" is to right any real injustice. Was it Milosovic that died before his 8 year war crimes trial at the Hague ended? Or how long it took to settle up for Lockerbie?

Deadly force situations are much like the physics inside the singularity at the core of a black hole, the normal rules don't apply. Get them at sea where you have all the advantages.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi NWS,

I don't disagree with your analysis, but will quibble with your solution. Option #2 is too complicated and too expensive. Cultural and political differences may hamper the operation of an international force and limits ability to act decisively. There are a number of governments in that region that turn a blind eye, if not profit from the operations of these guys. Police officers mean complicated rules, court room issues, "technicalities", and endless appeals, not mention prison escapes ala the USS Cole. This is a military problem best dealt with VT and not Miranda. Once at sea, these pirates fall under a different set of rules and can be dealt with decisively......on our terms. Survivors can go to the Hague or go back to their native countries.

Laws and courts are great and work well within the bubble of civilization, outside of the bubble it's a different set of rules. I think Ed, got it right when he said no one would really care how they were dealt with or what "rules" might have been bent. I think most of the world would cheer as they did after Entebbe.

I'm not trying to be cavalier here about "rights and "rules or uneccessarily blood thirsty. As a police officer for over 20 years I have the greatest respect for the system even with it's problems. But I also know what a thin reed "international law" is to right any real injustice. Was it Milosovic that died before his 8 year war crimes trial at the Hague ended? Or how long it took to settle up for Lockerbie?

Deadly force situations are much like the physics inside the singularity at the core of a black hole, the normal rules don't apply. Get them at sea where you have all the advantages.

Mike:

I think you're correct. Piracy was once defeated back when the RN and the USN used decisive force to suppress the pirates. It may require a few years of stationing some frigates or corvettes in the most heavily traveled sea lanes to engage the fast moving ligiht boats favored by pirates. But once you start killing them on a weekly basis, piracy will lose its appeal. What would Honor Harrington do?

[keschofield]

Mike & Ed,

Couldn't agree more. Pirates understand and respect only strength. If the Russians decided that it was in their interest to retake this ship, do you think they would hesitate? I don't. Spetznatz would kill anything that moved and sort them out later.

Not that I have any great importance, but I have already told everybody in my family that if I were ever taken hostage not to pay any ransom. I'd probably be dead already. I'd be such a pain in the a$% to any hostage taker that they'd have to kill me or let me go.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Mike & Ed,

Couldn't agree more. Pirates understand and respect only strength. If the Russians decided that it was in their interest to retake this ship, do you think they would hesitate? I don't. Spetznatz would kill anything that moved and sort them out later.

Not that I have any great importance, but I have already told everybody in my family that if I were ever taken hostage not to pay any ransom. I'd probably be dead already. I'd be such a pain in the a$% to any hostage taker that they'd have to kill me or let me go.

Yeah you'd start telling them where to invest the ransom in terms of real estate valuations and they would go nuts! Stop you crazy infidel, leave this vessel at once!

[Warship NWS]

Guys.. lets move on to another topic. This topic has lost its value for constructive conversation. Thanks. ;)

[keschofield]

Guys.. lets move on to another topic. This topic has lost its value for constructive conversation. Thanks. ;)

Sorry 'bout that boss!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Sorry 'bout that boss!

Kurt et al:

As a fitting ending, here's a link to a column by Ralph Peters of the NY Post on this very topic. You might find it interesting:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10012008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/exterminate_that_plague_of_pirates_131517.htm