Some (scenario related) questions

[HBuhring]

Expectations running higher every day here... but here are some questions

1. Will it be possible to refit ships (with different weapons and/or engines and/or armor and/or FC and radar) at a fraction of the time/cost of builing new ones, like it was in real life?

2. Will it be possible to simulate reinforcements/redeployments from/to a theatre (e.g. British or French ships entering/leaving the Mediterranean) at random or predetermined game turns?

3. Are new ships built at specific places (shipyards, bases), according to RL constraints (e.g. large enough drydocks), or shipbuilding is abstractly simulated, and ships appear at home ports when completed?

4. In case of scenario with navies operating away from the home ports (RN in the Med, to make an example), newly completed ships appear at the edge of the map or spawn in home ports?

Thank you in advance.

HBuhring

[tony_glazebrook]

Expectations running higher every day here... but here are some questions

1. Will it be possible to refit ships (with different weapons and/or engines and/or armor and/or FC and radar) at a fraction of the time/cost of builing new ones, like it was in real life?

2. Will it be possible to simulate reinforcements/redeployments from/to a theatre (e.g. British or French ships entering/leaving the Mediterranean) at random or predetermined game turns?

3. Are new ships built at specific places (shipyards, bases), according to RL constraints (e.g. large enough drydocks), or shipbuilding is abstractly simulated, and ships appear at home ports when completed?

4. In case of scenario with navies operating away from the home ports (RN in the Med, to make an example), newly completed ships appear at the edge of the map or spawn in home ports?

Thank you in advance.

HBuhring

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, in the sense that certain improvements - such as radar, machinery, fire control, submarine propulsion, armour quality etc - can be obtained through investing in technology R&D. The benefits then flow in a general way to the ships - current and building - to which the technology factors relate.

2. You can create your own scenarios if you like that have reinforcements arriving at predetermined times by delaying their entry into the game. But I think you will find that because SAS is a truly dynamic strategic sim, the limitations of the old-style fixed-reinforcement schedule games will pale in comparison to the ability to build just the ships you want (jncluding your own designs), when you want (allowing of course though for realistic construction times). The ability to construct is dependant on your economic position, which gets back to how well you are playing the game.

3. SAS simplifies this aspect by requiring that all ship construction occur at a player's 'home port'. Repairs can occur at any port that has a high enough infrastructure level. (This can be improved, or degraded by enemy attack). As an example, in the Mediterranean scenario, new ships will appear for the Italians at La Spezia (one of their major dockyards), and for the British, at Gibraltar (which represents the western edge of the Med map). But repairs can be done at Taranto, and Alexandria as well, for example.

4. See my answer above.

Cheers

[HBuhring]

2b. I understand that it is possible to make ships *appear* later than at the beginning of a scenario; but is it possible to *remove* ships from scenarios (e.g. French ships in the event of an armistice, like in real WWII)?

Thanks again

HB

[tony_glazebrook]

2b. I understand that it is possible to make ships *appear* later than at the beginning of a scenario; but is it possible to *remove* ships from scenarios (e.g. French ships in the event of an armistice, like in real WWII)?

Thanks again

HB

This is not possible, no.

Cheers

[thepoz]

Along those lines, if you are playing in the Med, will you be able to request or transfer ships from other areas as reinforcements for the Med? Will ships show up in the Med at times they actually served in the Med?

I guess I could ask it this way, how will it be determined what ships were where when?

[tony_glazebrook]

Along those lines, if you are playing in the Med, will you be able to request or transfer ships from other areas as reinforcements for the Med? Will ships show up in the Med at times they actually served in the Med?

I guess I could ask it this way, how will it be determined what ships were where when?

As I indicated rather briefly in the previous post, SAS is primarily a dynamic strategic simulation. The starting conditions for a scenario can be set up - these can be historically based, or hypothetical. What happens after that, including the entry of new ships, is normally the result of the players' decisions about what they want to build. You can also set up the scenario so that certain ships are still building, due to commission in a set amount of time down the track. And you can also specify any ships as starting already damaged and in repair.

SAS does not have the concept of a fixed reinforcement schedule, like many games. (However - see the next paragraph below, where I explain how such a schedule can be mimicked if you really want it). I deliberately avoided the idea of a fixed reinforcement schedule as IMHO it is a poor man's way of modelling reality. In the pre-computer days I guess it was the only way to practically model replacements/reinforcements. But I wanted to harness the power of the computer and give freedom to players to make these key decisions themselves, all the time based on the underlying economic situation. The game is thus much more fluid than many, and much more realistic IMHO. The purist may complain that this allows players to have ships in theatre as the game progresses that weren't there in reality. I say - so what! Do you want a game and a challenge, or do you want to just carbon copy history? In the end, I see no point in the latter, because such a way of modelling is as far from reality as you can get. The replacements and reinforcements that were historically available were themselves the result of dynamic decisions at any given point in time about what was needed, what had been planned for and could be afforded, and what could be made available. This is what SAS models.

Having said all of the above, SAS is pretty flexible and you CAN set up scenarios if you like that include all known ships that entered a theatre after the start date, and model their delayed entry by holding back their commissioning until they actually became available. And you could then set production values low so that only repairs really could be afforded, and no new ship construction. Like many things in SAS, the choice is yours. Personally, I can not see the point to such an exercise though.

The scenarios we ship with will include a British v Italian Med scenario starting in mid '41, and the starting conditions will reflect the ships actually available, including some key ships still building and some still in repair. Production values will be set to allow a reasonable amount of new construction also that players can have control over.

SAS is not a simulation of a single operation, or a short campaign. It simulates the challenge of running a war, all the time within the constraints of your economy. At the strategic level, you have choices to make where you are thinking months and even years ahead - how much to spend on new ships and aircraft (and what design characteristics you want), what technology and infrastructure to develop (including developing your industrial base and your ports and airfield capacitiess), and what overall posture you want to take - anywhere from very cautious through to very aggressive. At the operational level you are thinking weeks ahead and have choices to make about the deployment of your fleets - where to send them and with what rules of engagement. And at the tactical-operational level, you have hourly responses to make (if you want) where you can fine tune your fleet orders and control your air strikes in response to reports of the enemy.

I hope this rather long-winded answer is a satisfactory reply. I wanted to not just answer your question narrowly, but also give you a better understanding of what SAS is about.

[DiFool6]

I favor the approach you are using, Tony, as "pre-canned" reinforcements have always been unsatisfying for me.

Quick (related) question: how do I perform "redesigns" on already-existing ships? If I am the British in that 1941 Med scenario, can I make some retroactive modifications to the King George V's (like better main guns or somesuch) before the scenario starts? Is there a scenario editor which would allow me to do that?

[thepoz]

Thanks for the long answer it did clear up a lot of questions. I guess I was looking at it as game with naval time schedules that were historical. I like the idea of being able to set it up yourself, but I guess I was looking more at how the entire war was being run at one time as to having just one campaign area to think about. Lets face it as the British player you wouldnt put all of your capital ships in the Med and let Bismark have the run of the Atlantic.

[Saffron]

Hey, Tony,

I really like where this game is going. I predict a lot of sleepless nights coming up, though I suffer from insomnia anyway, so that's a good thing!

A couple of quick questions ...

1. As far as ship building is concerned, will there be "templates" for historical ships? In other words, if I were, for some reason, inclined to build a 3rd and 4th "Texas" class battleship, would I just have to tell the computer to build a "Texas" class battleship? I won't have to know all the stats of the Texas class to "recreate" it, will I?

2. Will there be a "rush" feature for building ships? For instance, let's say I have several ships building, but they won't be ready until, say January 1944. I get into a fight and lose big time, and now I need more ships desperately. Can I sink extra money into current projects to "rush" the launch date to, say, July, 1943 or something like that?

Thanks.

[tony_glazebrook]

I favor the approach you are using, Tony, as "pre-canned" reinforcements have always been unsatisfying for me.

Quick (related) question: how do I perform "redesigns" on already-existing ships? If I am the British in that 1941 Med scenario, can I make some retroactive modifications to the King George V's (like better main guns or somesuch) before the scenario starts? Is there a scenario editor which would allow me to do that?

You could do this so long as you did it in turn 1, before any action started. You can do this by:
1. deleting the exiting ship(s) that may be part of the starting line up that you want to modify
2. using the ship builder, build new ones to the altered designs you want

That's it. Ships 'built' on turn 1 are immeduately available by default (ie unless you set a 'weeks to commissioning' value for them).

[tony_glazebrook]

Hey, Tony,

I really like where this game is going. I predict a lot of sleepless nights coming up, though I suffer from insomnia anyway, so that's a good thing!

A couple of quick questions ...

1. As far as ship building is concerned, will there be "templates" for historical ships? In other words, if I were, for some reason, inclined to build a 3rd and 4th "Texas" class battleship, would I just have to tell the computer to build a "Texas" class battleship? I won't have to know all the stats of the Texas class to "recreate" it, will I?

2. Will there be a "rush" feature for building ships? For instance, let's say I have several ships building, but they won't be ready until, say January 1944. I get into a fight and lose big time, and now I need more ships desperately. Can I sink extra money into current projects to "rush" the launch date to, say, July, 1943 or something like that?

Thanks.


Thanks Saffron for your continued interest :-)

In answer to your questions:
1. Yes, absolutely. To buld a Texas class BB takes three mouse clicks - select "Battle" as the ship type, select "Texas" from the list of available historical classes, then click "Build". Even better, the computer will select a ship name from the list of available historical names for the class. You can rename it if you want but you get a name by default.

Note that to modify any ship takes only one or two or so more clicks. Once you have selected say the Texas, you can see the design represented as values for a set of 8 main characteristics. To increase the speed for example, takes just one mouse click to select a higher speed. The computer calculates the new higher tonnage.

Note also that any design you create or modify and then build at least one ship from is saved as an available template, so you can easily build more of them later, just like an historical class.

2. The rush feature is something I hadn't thought of and is worth considering as an extra feature a little down the track - thanks for that! You CAN speed up construction in a general way by investing in dockyard infrastructure - higher infrastructure at a particular dockyard means quicker build and repair times for all ships in that dockyard.

[tony_glazebrook]

Thanks for the long answer it did clear up a lot of questions. I guess I was looking at it as game with naval time schedules that were historical. I like the idea of being able to set it up yourself, but I guess I was looking more at how the entire war was being run at one time as to having just one campaign area to think about. Lets face it as the British player you wouldnt put all of your capital ships in the Med and let Bismark have the run of the Atlantic.


That's true, yes. In SAS, the way to represent this is to set economic factors for either side in a way that constrains them to the degree you would want. Economic and other factors (like starting levels of technology) are factored into the calculation of which side has the initial advantage, and by how much. In this way you can create an infinite variety of scenarios even in just one theatre, like the Med, varying the degree of difficulty for your chosen side .

I think what you are wondering is whether SAS can represent war on a global rather than a theatre scale.

There are two limits in SAS on that:
1. It models conflict between 2 'sides'. Typically each side would be a single country, but you can kludge that by including say French ships in a med scenario that might pit the brits (with some french ships) vs the Italians. You can't have more than 2 sides though.

2. The scale of the maps can be pretty large, but not global. I can create a map for anywhere in the world as a base for a campaign, and the map can be pretty big - for example - the Atlantic Map will include the north and south atlantic and extend west to the east coast of the US and eastwards to Murmansk and Archangels (so you can run trans atlantic as well as russian-bound convoys). But the map couldn't cover the entire globe. Much bigger than the Atlantic map I am making and the hex sizes have to get too big and you lose important operational resolution. Down the track, well, hmm, we'd have to think - no promises at all about that though as there would be some challenges to stretch the game engine to that extent.

[Warship NWS]

As Tony mentioned,

At present SAS handles two "sides" of a naval war however we have discussed adding the ability to handle multiple nationalities in a bit more detail as a future update that could possibly be controlled by the player or AI. As he also mentioned, you can include weapons from other nations on a "side" to fight alongside an allied nationality.

As had been noted in previous posts we had to find a stopping point for SAS but the potential for the engine is far greater then where the release point is at v1.0. We have already discussed several possible future plans for the design as updates to the engine which will also be based on constructive player feedback.

Thanks. :)

[thepoz]

I and a couple of friends are really looking forward to this game, and we were talking about some things and here is a question for you.

I read in one posting that you can only play one area at a time. So we were looking at two games at once, as we think the Med and Atlantic should be played togather. Can you move ships in and out of a game? What I am getting at is can you take a ship say the Ark Royal and have it serve in the Med awhile and then remove it from the game? Then maybe later add it again without having to build them?

Thanks for all the work and I hope to see this game soon so I can schedule a weeks vacation around it.:D

[tony_glazebrook]

I and a couple of friends are really looking forward to this game, and we were talking about some things and here is a question for you.

I read in one posting that you can only play one area at a time. So we were looking at two games at once, as we think the Med and Atlantic should be played togather. Can you move ships in and out of a game? What I am getting at is can you take a ship say the Ark Royal and have it serve in the Med awhile and then remove it from the game? Then maybe later add it again without having to build them?

Thanks for all the work and I hope to see this game soon so I can schedule a weeks vacation around it.:D

Down the track, there may well be a combined Med and Atlantic scenario; no promises but that would be on the list; before this is done I would have to broaden how sides are represented in the game so there would be some work to do.

But even then, SAS intentionally limits gameplay to the current scenario - whatever it is.

You CAN represent ships coming from other theatres, but only at the start of the game - where you can set up the scenario to have delayed entry of specifified ships. During the game you can not send ships out of theatre or suddenly call for more (eg the Ark Royal) that may be out of the theatre and not already scheduled to arrive.

This is because SAS is meant to model real resource challenges. Ships you get to use must be paid for from the resources available, and, except for the first turn, must take a realistic time to 'build'.

I suppose I could add an accelerator - ie you could model the arrival of out of theatre ships by 'building' them during the game and then setting reduced commisisioning times; but I would have to then increase the cost of the ship in some way - this is something I could do possibly for release 1.1 I'd have to make sure it didn't upset play balance though...

Hope this answers your question

[thepoz]

Yes thanks for the answer.

[Millsy]

Further to the discussion on atlantic vs Med maps


is Gib on Med or Atlantic or both ?

[tony_glazebrook]

Further to the discussion on atlantic vs Med maps


is Gib on Med or Atlantic or both ?


'Gib'? I haven't taken my smart pills today...

[Warship NWS]

'Gib'? I haven't taken my smart pills today...

Gibraltar.

[Millsy]

yes inded Gibraltar - my AH (GB vs FR) timeline means that the strategic position of Gibraltar is even more important than in OTL WW2. I can cope with/work round the two map issue (basically nothing will be able to move between the Atlantic & Med so two seperate wars).
Second Atlantic map question that I may have asked before - assume that North Sea is in but Baltic is not.
How far south does atlantic map go ? - Cape Town or West Africa ?
Last & final map question - indian ocean ?
hopefully the good ship S@S not far from port now !

[tony_glazebrook]

yes inded Gibraltar - my AH (GB vs FR) timeline means that the strategic position of Gibraltar is even more important than in OTL WW2. I can cope with/work round the two map issue (basically nothing will be able to move between the Atlantic & Med so two seperate wars).
Second Atlantic map question that I may have asked before - assume that North Sea is in but Baltic is not.
How far south does atlantic map go ? - Cape Town or West Africa ?
Last & final map question - indian ocean ?
hopefully the good ship S@S not far from port now !

Ah - I should have guessed -Duh! (Sound of head being whacked)

1: Gibraltar will be in both Med and Atlantic
2: Yes
3: Haven't decided yet how far south to take the South Atlantic - obviously though at least as far as Montevideo
4: Indian Ocean would be in a post release add-in at some point

Cheers