Auto engage question

[millerj818]

I am very glad to have found this excellent mod for FC, a big thank you to all involved.

I do have a question about the Auto Engage function, is there anyway to disable this? I have had a few times where a ship is engaging an aircraft and wastes a lot of SAMs and I had an aircraft nearby that I would have rather had engage the aircraft.

[Jittery]

you can turn it off (read manual ) for exact directions.

http://navalwarfare.info/files/NWP/Documents/NWP%20complete%20Manual.20.pdf <-- linky

Also if 20 SSM's are coming at your ship its handy to have it turned on :), can be a trade off

[millerj818]

I must be blind because I do not see it in the manual.


To be honest, I have never played FC with auto-engage enabled, and now with incoming missiles I have problems with the ships not engaging until they are much closer to the ships, specifically ships with SM2s. There is plenty of range on those missiles but the ships seem to wait until they are half way to the ship before engaging. I was hoping that by doing it manually I could force the ship to fire them at their max range.

[Mike D]

I am very glad to have found this excellent mod for FC, a big thank you to all involved.

I do have a question about the Auto Engage function, is there anyway to disable this? I have had a few times where a ship is engaging an aircraft and wastes a lot of SAMs and I had an aircraft nearby that I would have rather had engage the aircraft.


If your using the stock out-of-the-box FC then you can change it in the Options page. If your using NWP then it is set when you installed NWP and you shouldn't change it as messes up how NWP works.

[Warship NWS]

I must be blind because I do not see it in the manual.


To be honest, I have never played FC with auto-engage enabled, and now with incoming missiles I have problems with the ships not engaging until they are much closer to the ships, specifically ships with SM2s. There is plenty of range on those missiles but the ships seem to wait until they are half way to the ship before engaging. I was hoping that by doing it manually I could force the ship to fire them at their max range.

Ships cannot target incoming missiles until they are detected on radar or some other fire control methods.. this is reality my friend. You have RCS/IRCS considerations, radar horizon (around 20nm depending on mast height vs target height), FCR range considerations, etc..etc..etc.. in the real world SAMs dont just lift off because you might think there is a missile out there even if you see it on ESM or via other platforms. In FC however ships cannot target for other ships, even though modern navies are working in this direction or are starting to have this ability in practice. The firing platform in FC has to be able to detect, ID, and target the threat itself. Also firing SAMs at maximum range vs A/C is typically not done in reality as the plane can simply fly out of range, drop altitude, have longer chances to break lock through spoofing, etc..

Thanks.

[Warship NWS]

Auto-engage,

The reason its implemented is for several reasons - please allow me to be direct,

a) Most modern SAM systems have an autonomous option. Why you ask? Because the human brain would never keep up with a number of incoming SSMs moving at 500-1000+ knots skimming at around 10m off the water being detected at less then around 10-15nm away from the ship. You will have a grand total of around 15-30 seconds to react.. if your lucky. Care to try that in reality? Don't bet on it, trust me.. AEGIS and other modern threat assesment computerized SAM systems were designed for a reason.

2) FC in its initial form, IMHO, was little more then a click-fest modern naval version of Command and Conquer. Part of the idea behind NWP was to reduce the "click-fest" manual only firing of missiles concept of the design. Try operating a CVBG in hostile waters while trying to control aircraft, ships, subs, etc.. and trying to keep up with aerial threats.. not happening, and not realistic -- you do have crews and staff for a reason in modern naval warfare -- admirals do not hit the "fire buttons" per threat either.

The purpose to our design is to increase realism.. not decrease it. Auto-engage, by FC default or NWP, is more realistic then not having it by any measure of modern naval warfare multi-threat axis practice or combat theory.

Thanks.

[millerj818]

I understand what your saying, and it did slip my mind that low flying missiles would not be detected by air search radar. Now, what radar(s) guide these missiles? Does it matter if a surface search or air search radar detects a missile in order for a SAM to be able to hit the threat? Thinking hypothetically though, what if the air search radar when to sea level and detected an incoming missile, shouldn't the ship fire upon it as soon as it reaches the range of the SAM? Same thing if the SSM was at a higher altitude and being detected by air search radar, why would the ship wait until it was well within the range of the SAM to engage?

And I understand that firing a SAM at an aircraft at the edge of the SAM's range doesn't take place, but in FC it does and the aircraft of course is able to get away, thats why I wanted to disable ships from automatically engaging aircraft, I would rather decide myself when to do so. Instead as soon as an enemy aircraft is near, SAMs go a flyin and end up being a waste.

Same with the aircraft auto engaging aircraft. I have 2 F-18s near an air target, yet an F-14 from further away is the one firing. So then it takes twice as long for the missile to get there and by that time the enemy aircraft has blown an F-18 out of the sky. I would rather have control of which aircraft I want to attack another aircraft.

But none of this is possible?

[Warship NWS]

FC, IIRC, engages hostile threats at a range of around 75% of the maximum SAM engagement envelope to help avoid missiles running out of gas due to maneurvering threats, around 90% if it is a closing threat at a high rate of speed. Note, sometimes missiles just flat out miss get spoofed.. if that happens.. they self destruct. Missiles are not perfect weapons.

Again.. you have to remember its not just about radar range.. its about can the FIRING ship detect, ID, and engage the target with its combination of sensors, fire control radars, and weapons. It is not a simple click and fire type of arrangement as you see in RTS type games.. see target, press button, make target go away. Real life is just not that simple... thus the reason for expensive automated computerized fire control SAM systems on many modern warships.

[millerj818]

Yes, I understand all that, but that didn't really answer my questions. In FC, which system is it that is guiding the missiles, AS or SS or both? Does it matter which system detects the threat in order to guide the missile?

[Warship NWS]

Yes, I understand all that, but that didn't really answer my questions. In FC, which system is it that is guiding the missiles, AS or SS or both? Does it matter which system detects the threat in order to guide the missile?

Sorry, I thought you were asking in reality vs the game.. in the game the radar spots and tracks it.. the fire controls are fed the info by the radars and they in turn guide the missiles to the target. If the missile is self-guiding then only some measure of detection is required to launch the missile and is not needed to guide it. The only difference with SS vs AS radars, for game purposes, one spots targets below 2000' in the game and the other above 2000'. In reality, SS radars are usually more effective at detection, ID, and tracking vs VLOW altitude clutter then AS radars and often have greater VLOW detection ranges.

Thanks.

[millerj818]

Thanks, sorry for the confusion, I had meant only as it applies to the game.

But just to confirm, there is no way for me to disable any auto engage correct?

[Saffron]

I do have a question about the Auto Engage function, is there anyway to disable this? I have had a few times where a ship is engaging an aircraft and wastes a lot of SAMs and I had an aircraft nearby that I would have rather had engage the aircraft.

I tend to micro-manage aerial combat for reasons such as this. The AI is usually pretty good about not firing lots of AAMs or SAMs at the same target. If you want your aircraft to engage an aerial target, just manually order it to. The AI will "acknowledge" this fact and usually not fire SAMs or have any other aircraft fire AAMs at that particular target.

I just wish the AI was a bit more intelligent with its use of SSMs in the same way. Whenever the AI has massed surface assets, too often I've seen the AI launch almost every SSM in its fleet against the first ship it detects, even if it's a PCFG.

[millerj818]

I tend to micro-manage aerial combat for reasons such as this. The AI is usually pretty good about not firing lots of AAMs or SAMs at the same target. If you want your aircraft to engage an aerial target, just manually order it to. The AI will "acknowledge" this fact and usually not fire SAMs or have any other aircraft fire AAMs at that particular target.

I have done that as well, but it usually ends up that 2 missiles get fired.

[Mike D]

Thanks, sorry for the confusion, I had meant only as it applies to the game.

But just to confirm, there is no way for me to disable any auto engage correct?

Look at pages 15 and 33 in the SCS-FC manual. Specific information is given there.

[millerj818]

Look at pages 15 and 33 in the SCS-FC manual. Specific information is given there.

Not sure what manual that is. I looked in the v18.3 manual and those pages had nothing to do with what I was asking.