Showdown: Air Combat

[old_pop2000]

I watched a new show on the Military Channel called Showdown: Air Combat. I've provided the link to the website.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/showdown.html

I enjoyed the program. It was a good mix of realism, computer graphics and descriptions of the capability of both pilots and aircraft. I liked the concept of showing the actual aircraft with Steve Hinton, it gives some realism. They were relatively accurate in their descriptions although they don't give you the model of the plane. The F4F with the armour, six guns was the F4F-4, which was not available immediately at the start of the war. However, it was used at Guadalcanal.

The graphics were good. The black and white movies injected to add realism were ok, but could have been substituted by graphics. The actual flights of the two aircraft were limited but in all fairness, they have to be careful with those old planes, many of them were rebuilt from wrecks.

As to the episode, it was the fight between Pug Sutherland in an F4F versus Saburo Sakai on August 7th, 1942 on the day of the invasion of Guadalcanal. I won't spoil it, the episode is recounted in the second "First Team" book by Lundrestrom. I will tell you that Sakai stated he made a recognition error, when he dived on the SBD's. He believed they were F4F. Serious mistake on his part. Japanese pilots learned to wait until the SBD's had formed for the dive, then catch them at the bottom of the dive as they pulled out. It was usually fatal to attack a closed up formation of SBD's. Eighteen SBD's means 36 .30 Browning's, not a good prospect for survival.

Anyway, enjoy the program and use this thread if you wish to ask me a question. I will research an answer, if I don't already know it.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I watched a new show on the Military Channel called Showdown: Air Combat. I've provided the link to the website.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/showdown.html

I enjoyed the program. It was a good mix of realism, computer graphics and descriptions of the capability of both pilots and aircraft. I liked the concept of showing the actual aircraft with Steve Hinton, it gives some realism. They were relatively accurate in their descriptions although they don't give you the model of the plane. The F4F with the armour, six guns was the F4F-4, which was not available immediately at the start of the war. However, it was used at Guadalcanal.

The graphics were good. The black and white movies injected to add realism were ok, but could have been substituted by graphics. The actual flights of the two aircraft were limited but in all fairness, they have to be careful with those old planes, many of them were rebuilt from wrecks.

As to the episode, it was the fight between Pug Sutherland in an F4F versus Saburo Sakai on August 7th, 1942 on the day of the invasion of Guadalcanal. I won't spoil it, the episode is recounted in the second "First Team" book by Lundrestrom. I will tell you that Sakai stated he made a recognition error, when he dived on the SBD's. He believed they were F4F. Serious mistake on his part. Japanese pilots learned to wait until the SBD's had formed for the dive, then catch them at the bottom of the dive as they pulled out. It was usually fatal to attack a closed up formation of SBD's. Eighteen SBD's means 36 .30 Browning's, not a good prospect for survival.

Anyway, enjoy the program and use this thread if you wish to ask me a question. I will research an answer, if I don't already know it.

Dennis:

This sounds good. I'll make a note to watch it this week.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

This sounds good. I'll make a note to watch it this week.


Here is a point to consider, as you watch the episode between Sutherland and Sakae.

How really good was Sakae's experience in helping against the US Navy pilots? Yes, he had 50 victories. All in China, versus Chinese pilots, flying Russian aircraft and others. Most were against ancient Russian bombers. His first encounter with a US Navy pilot was in this encounter and had Sutherland had ammunition, he would have killed Sakae twice. As it was, Sakae made a rookie mistake of diving on a flight of SBD's and nearly lost his life. Sakae was used to flying against Aussie pilots flying, again, ancient aircraft from Port Moresby. Was this experience good or bad for his abilities? Did he learn the wrong tricks? Did it give him a false confidence in his abilities? His next encounter was at Iwo Jima, IIRC, and he nearly got killed again by F6F's.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Here is a point to consider, as you watch the episode between Sutherland and Sakae.

How really good was Sakae's experience in helping against the US Navy pilots? Yes, he had 50 victories. All in China, versus Chinese pilots, flying Russian aircraft and others. Most were against ancient Russian bombers. His first encounter with a US Navy pilot was in this encounter and had Sutherland had ammunition, he would have killed Sakae twice. As it was, Sakae made a rookie mistake of diving on a flight of SBD's and nearly lost his life. Sakae was used to flying against Aussie pilots flying, again, ancient aircraft from Port Moresby. Was this experience good or bad for his abilities? Did he learn the wrong tricks? Did it give him a false confidence in his abilities? His next encounter was at Iwo Jima, IIRC, and he nearly got killed again by F6F's.

Dennis:

When Sakai was flying out of Lae, he mainly faced USAAF pilots in either P-40s or P-39s. He mentions in his book that other aces had warned him and his squadron mates about US navy pilots as being much better flyers and that the Wildcat was no easy kill. The mission that cost him his eye was against TBFs I believe?

Regarding his Iwo Jima experience, it was more of a case of just trying to stay alive when he was jumped by Hellcats. Still had managed to shoot down four of them, but he makes the point that had he been facing an experienced group of pilots, he would have never survived. Most of the rest of his fellow pilots at Iwo Jima were killed that day.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

When Sakai was flying out of Lae, he mainly faced USAAF pilots in either P-40s or P-39s. He mentions in his book that other aces had warned him and his squadron mates about US navy pilots as being much better flyers and that the Wildcat was no easy kill. The mission that cost him his eye was against TBFs I believe?

Regarding his Iwo Jima experience, it was more of a case of just trying to stay alive when he was jumped by Hellcats. Still had managed to shoot down four of them, but he makes the point that had he been facing an experienced group of pilots, he would have never survived. Most of the rest of his fellow pilots at Iwo Jima were killed that day.


At Guadalcanal, he was facing SBD's and Grumman TBF's. He found a lone SBD then attacked it, shooting it down, but the second group was TBF's, which he attacked, but mistakenly thought were F4F's. At Port Moresby it was a mixed gathering of P-40's and P-39's with USAAF and Aussie pilots. At this juncture, that mixed bag still wanted to dogfight with the Zero.

As for Iwo, it was lucky and was flying a -52 with self sealing tanks and armour, but his experience and aircraft plus the inexperience US Navy pilots were the key. However, had they been anywhere near as experienced as some of our pilots, he would have been dead very quickly. I am not all that certain, that Sakae was a great ace, just a good pilot in a maneuverable aircraft.

[Ed Rotondaro]

At Guadalcanal, he was facing SBD's. At Port Moresby it was a mixed gathering of P-40's and P-39's with USAAF and Aussie pilots. At this juncture, that mixed bag still wanted to dogfight with the Zero.

As for Iwo, it was lucky and was flying a -52 with self sealing tanks and armour, but his experience and aircraft plus the inexperience US Navy pilots were the key. However, had they been anywhere near as experienced as some of our pilots, he would have been dead very quickly. I am not all that certain, that Sakae was a great ace, just a good pilot in a maneuverable aircraft.

Dennis:

I think if he had ever squared off against somebody like Alex Vraciu or Bruce McCampbell he would have been dead meat. Joe Foss probably could have nailed him in a Corsair. Most of the Wildcat aces at Guadalcanal were smart experienced pilots and they would not have been easy meat.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I think if he had ever squared off against somebody like Alex Vraciu or Bruce McCampbell he would have been dead meat. Joe Foss probably could have nailed him in a Corsair. Most of the Wildcat aces at Guadalcanal were smart experienced pilots and they would not have been easy meat.


Sutherland almost got him, so I would tend to agree that Foss, McCampbell, Thach or Flatley might have got him, especially as they honed their new tactics. I am not taking anything away from Sakae, but he was not experienced against F4F's and Navy pilots.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Sutherland almost got him, so I would tend to agree that Foss, McCampbell, Thach or Flatley might have got him, especially as they honed their new tactics. I am not taking anything away from Sakae, but he was not experienced against F4F's and Navy pilots.

Dennis:

I misnamed McCampbell, it was David, not Bruce LOL! Say how many aerial victories did Thatch end up with? I was only able to find three at Midway and I believe he spent a lot of time training new pilots afterwards.

[Kyle Holgate]

Sutherland almost got him, so I would tend to agree that Foss, McCampbell, Thach or Flatley might have got him, especially as they honed their new tactics. I am not taking anything away from Sakae, but he was not experienced against F4F's and Navy pilots.

It would be logical to be a bit careful when encountering an aircraft that you've not seen before, I would think. Aggression is of course part of being a fighter pilot but a bit of self preservation instinct would be good to have too! Imagine the first Germans and Japanese that encountered the B-17 for example, though I suppose it's more obvious from a distance that it's got hefty defensive guns.
In Europe flyers would mistake FW-190's for P-47's and vice versa, and they were pretty different looking. I can see how one could mistake the USN Naval aircraft in a pinch, at least form a distance.

[john964]

Dennis:

I misnamed McCampbell, it was David, not Bruce LOL! Say how many aerial victories did Thatch end up with? I was only able to find three at Midway and I believe he spent a lot of time training new pilots afterwards.I belive Thach had 15-18 victories after Aug-Oct 42 he was a instructor until he became MaCain's Ops Officer in mid 44. FYI his last name has no second "T"

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I misnamed McCampbell, it was David, not Bruce LOL! Say how many aerial victories did Thatch end up with? I was only able to find three at Midway and I believe he spent a lot of time training new pilots afterwards.

Actually, the Navy never compiled an official list of Navy and Marine Corps shootdowns so there is no official record of kills. The unofficial record shows he compiled 6 victories before being stationed at Kanoehe for instructor duty, IIRC.

[asnrobert]

I saw the Richard Bong episode- I thought it was pretty good.

[Mike Malanaphy]

I watched a new show on the Military Channel called Showdown: Air Combat. I've provided the link to the website.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/showdown.html

I enjoyed the program. It was a good mix of realism, computer graphics and descriptions of the capability of both pilots and aircraft. I liked the concept of showing the actual aircraft with Steve Hinton, it gives some realism. They were relatively accurate in their descriptions although they don't give you the model of the plane. The F4F with the armour, six guns was the F4F-4, which was not available immediately at the start of the war. However, it was used at Guadalcanal.

The graphics were good. The black and white movies injected to add realism were ok, but could have been substituted by graphics. The actual flights of the two aircraft were limited but in all fairness, they have to be careful with those old planes, many of them were rebuilt from wrecks.

As to the episode, it was the fight between Pug Sutherland in an F4F versus Saburo Sakai on August 7th, 1942 on the day of the invasion of Guadalcanal. I won't spoil it, the episode is recounted in the second "First Team" book by Lundrestrom. I will tell you that Sakai stated he made a recognition error, when he dived on the SBD's. He believed they were F4F. Serious mistake on his part. Japanese pilots learned to wait until the SBD's had formed for the dive, then catch them at the bottom of the dive as they pulled out. It was usually fatal to attack a closed up formation of SBD's. Eighteen SBD's means 36 .30 Browning's, not a good prospect for survival.

Anyway, enjoy the program and use this thread if you wish to ask me a question. I will research an answer, if I don't already know it.


Hi Guys,

Our satellite package just got reshuffled and saw the episode your talking about last night. I didn't think it was all that good and preferred dogfights on the History Channel . The host decribed both planes, but didn't talk about the speed lmitations on the Zero's maneuverability whcih seems a pretty important omission on an aviation oreinted show. What was interesting was the the Co2 fire suppression system on the Zero to combat fuel tank fires, obviously not up to snuff.

I remember that in Sakai's memoirs, he remembers the planes he attacked as TBFs and I think The First team volume on Guadalcanal says they were SBDs. Neither a porcupine to attack from astern. Having seen .50 cal rounds, I don't think even a glancing blow to the head would be survivable.

I believe Sakai was attacked by some 15 Hellcats over Iwo Jima and was able to survive by violent maneuvers and perhaps too many planes trying to get at them. All the more remarkable as he only had vision in one eye.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Guys,

Our satellite package just got reshuffled and saw the episode your talking about last night. I didn't think it was all that good and preferred dogfights on the History Channel . The host decribed both planes, but didn't talk about the speed lmitations on the Zero's maneuverability whcih seems a pretty important omission on an aviation oreinted show. What was interesting was the the Co2 fire suppression system on the Zero to combat fuel tank fires, obviously not up to snuff.

I remember that in Sakai's memoirs, he remembers the planes he attacked as TBFs and I think The First team volume on Guadalcanal says they were SBDs. Neither a porcupine to attack from astern. Having seen .50 cal rounds, I don't think even a glancing blow to the head would be survivable.

I believe Sakai was attacked by some 15 Hellcats over Iwo Jima and was able to survive by violent maneuvers and perhaps too many planes trying to get at them. All the more remarkable as he only had vision in one eye.


Mike:
While I agree with you, there are time limitations and most likely the actual dogfight and background on the pilots was more important. I suspect that Hinton, Moga and Robert Shaw would have preferred to discuss the limitations in more detail. The limitations of the roll rate, rolling direction could have all been introduced but probably were not essential to telling the story. This program was not about the Zero but the dogfight between two pilots.

The CO2 system was only for the fuselage tank, not the wing tanks. It was limited and usually the bullets struck the tank, exploding it quickly before the pilot could activate the system.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

Our satellite package just got reshuffled and saw the episode your talking about last night. I didn't think it was all that good and preferred dogfights on the History Channel . The host decribed both planes, but didn't talk about the speed lmitations on the Zero's maneuverability whcih seems a pretty important omission on an aviation oreinted show. What was interesting was the the Co2 fire suppression system on the Zero to combat fuel tank fires, obviously not up to snuff.

I remember that in Sakai's memoirs, he remembers the planes he attacked as TBFs and I think The First team volume on Guadalcanal says they were SBDs. Neither a porcupine to attack from astern. Having seen .50 cal rounds, I don't think even a glancing blow to the head would be survivable.

I believe Sakai was attacked by some 15 Hellcats over Iwo Jima and was able to survive by violent maneuvers and perhaps too many planes trying to get at them. All the more remarkable as he only had vision in one eye.

Mike:

That essentially tracks with what I've read about Sakai's experiences. I believe his eyes were actually damaged by the splintering of his windshield, obviously not by a bullet. He did mention that the Hellcats that he fought did bunch up and were skidding across the skies, so they were probably not used to fighting experienced pilots. Another ace was with him briefly (I think his name was Muto) and he also bagged a couple of the Hellcats. But Sakai makes the point that even with the advantages of being able to bounce the US planes from altitude with the sun at their backs, the Japanese planes took a horrendous beating once the US fliers were able to gain altitude. I believe the IJN lost somewhere on the order of half of the planes they had sent out, at least 20 aircraft while the USN lost maybe 8. Sakai used a very hard roll to the right to evade his attackers, something that surprises me as US planes usually could outroll a Zero, although the late war Zero had clipped wings which may have improved its roll rate.

[old_pop2000]

...
Sakai used a very hard roll to the right to evade his attackers, something that surprises me as US planes usually could outroll a Zero, although the late war Zero had clipped wings which may have improved its roll rate.

The Zero could roll from right to left, faster than it could roll from left to right. Sakae's roll's were to the left and then end up with an sharp left turn. This is a maneuver executed suddenly that the US pilots were surprised by and could not follow. He was also skidding during the left roll. The sequence was aileron roll to the left, kick the rudder and turn sharply. The defense was a two ship element. The wingman would be positioned to the leaders right. When Sakae makes him maneuver, the wingman can left roll, and follow the leader with fly out to Sakae's right but then roll back to the left, staying the wingman's right.

You can also scissors him by having one aircraft approach from the left and one from the right. Which ever way he rolls, one aircraft has lead pursuit.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The Zero could roll from right to left, faster than it could roll from left to right. Sakae's roll's were to the left and then end up with an sharp left turn. This is a maneuver executed suddenly that the US pilots were surprised by and could not follow. He was also skidding during the left roll. The sequence was aileron roll to the left, kick the rudder and turn sharply. The defense was a two ship element. The wingman would be positioned to the leaders right. When Sakae makes him maneuver, the wingman can left roll, and follow the leader with fly out to Sakae's right but then roll back to the left, staying the wingman's right.

You can also scissors him by having one aircraft approach from the left and one from the right. Which ever way he rolls, one aircraft has lead pursuit.


Dennis:

Thanks for the clarification. Once Sakai was able to turn, he could get out of danger. I'm surprised some of the Hellcats didn't break off, climb for altitude and then try and dive on him since he had no wingman during the fight.

[Kyle Holgate]

Dennis:

Thanks for the clarification. Once Sakai was able to turn, he could get out of danger. I'm surprised some of the Hellcats didn't break off, climb for altitude and then try and dive on him since he had no wingman during the fight.

Later in the war there are a few instances where Allied fighters had problems with Japanese Aces. Not to take anything away from either party, but I think it may be as much that the US fighters are used to green, intept targets as the abilities of the Ace. Probably it's a bit of both.

It's been a while since I read the book about Sakai, but I thought his loss of vision was due to a brain injury not damage to his eye. I need to try to find that book again, it's buried somewhere in my "oh so organized" library.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Later in the war there are a few instances where Allied fighters had problems with Japanese Aces. Not to take anything away from either party, but I think it may be as much that the US fighters are used to green, intept targets as the abilities of the Ace. Probably it's a bit of both.

It's been a while since I read the book about Sakai, but I thought his loss of vision was due to a brain injury not damage to his eye. I need to try to find that book again, it's buried somewhere in my "oh so organized" library.

Kyle:

That's probably true, and many of the kills of US aces were against attack craft which were even more vulnerable. Navy ace Cmdr. David McCampbell's famous feat of shooting down 9 planes in a single mission came against torpedo bombers not fighters. Also let's remember that if a Japanese ace had managed to survive into 1944, he had to be very aware of his plane's strengths and weaknesses versus a Hellcat or Corsair.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:

That essentially tracks with what I've read about Sakai's experiences. I believe his eyes were actually damaged by the splintering of his windshield, obviously not by a bullet. He did mention that the Hellcats that he fought did bunch up and were skidding across the skies, so they were probably not used to fighting experienced pilots. Another ace was with him briefly (I think his name was Muto) and he also bagged a couple of the Hellcats. But Sakai makes the point that even with the advantages of being able to bounce the US planes from altitude with the sun at their backs, the Japanese planes took a horrendous beating once the US fliers were able to gain altitude. I believe the IJN lost somewhere on the order of half of the planes they had sent out, at least 20 aircraft while the USN lost maybe 8. Sakai used a very hard roll to the right to evade his attackers, something that surprises me as US planes usually could outroll a Zero, although the late war Zero had clipped wings which may have improved its roll rate.

Hi Ed,

I first read his book when I was in the 5th or 6th grade and remember being rivetted by his story. I'll have to pull out my copy and reread it. At some point he used his flying scarf to shove up under his flying helmet to staunch the flow of blood from his head wound. An amazing story of stamina and flying skill.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:
While I agree with you, there are time limitations and most likely the actual dogfight and background on the pilots was more important. I suspect that Hinton, Moga and Robert Shaw would have preferred to discuss the limitations in more detail. The limitations of the roll rate, rolling direction could have all been introduced but probably were not essential to telling the story. This program was not about the Zero but the dogfight between two pilots.

The CO2 system was only for the fuselage tank, not the wing tanks. It was limited and usually the bullets struck the tank, exploding it quickly before the pilot could activate the system.

Hi Dennis,

I understand their dilema in terms of keeping the audience interested. It's much the same tradeoff that the History Channel's 360 Combat presentation of the Enterprise story made with it's quick cut editing. But I could think a simple explanation of their performance envelopes could be done graphically fairly quickly as it is often key to understanding why a good pilot could fly to exploits his plane's strength or the enemy plane's weaknesses.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

I first read his book when I was in the 5th or 6th grade and remember being rivetted by his story. I'll have to pull out my copy and reread it. At some point he used his flying scarf to shove up under his flying helmet to staunch the flow of blood from his head wound. An amazing story of stamina and flying skill.


Mike:

I read a couple of summers ago and agree. Just the ability to be able to fly back after being wounded like was amazing.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Dennis,

I understand their dilema in terms of keeping the audience interested. It's much the same tradeoff that the History Channel's 360 Combat presentation of the Enterprise story made with it's quick cut editing. But I could think a simple explanation of their performance envelopes could be done graphically fairly quickly as it is often key to understanding why a good pilot could fly to exploits his plane's strength or the enemy plane's weaknesses.

Mike:

I'm assuming that the Robert Shaw mentioned is the same guy who wrote the book "Fighter Combat"?

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

Thanks for the clarification. Once Sakai was able to turn, he could get out of danger. I'm surprised some of the Hellcats didn't break off, climb for altitude and then try and dive on him since he had no wingman during the fight.


The Hellcats were probably so used to incompetent Japanese pilots by this time, Sakae threw them off their game. A Flatley, McCampbell or a Thach would have killed him on the first pass. They needed to fly as a team, I believe it was poor leadership by the commander.

[old_pop2000]

Mike:

I'm assuming that the Robert Shaw mentioned is the same guy who wrote the book "Fighter Combat"?

One in the same.

[Ed Rotondaro]

One in the same.

Dennis:

Thanks. He probably will lend a lot more credibility to the discussions.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

Caught another episode of Air Combat on the Military Channel. In this case, the performance envelopes of both aircraft were explored and explained. I was interesting that the Zero featured it's firing switch on the throttle as well as a toggle switch to select cannons or mahine guns. It was explained that the synchronization set up which allowed the machine guns to fire through the propeller arc reduced the cyclic rate of fire by about 25% over wing guns.

The episode featured America's top ace, Richard Bong, in a Dec 27, 1942 dogfight. He missed four aircraft and then shot two down in about a minute. A shame he was killed in a P-80 accident just as the war ended.

Good episode.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

Caught another episode of Air Combat on the Military Channel. In this case, the performance envelopes of both aircraft were explored and explained. I was interesting that the Zero featured it's firing switch on the throttle as well as a toggle switch to select cannons or mahine guns. It was explained that the synchronization set up which allowed the machine guns to fire through the propeller arc reduced the cyclic rate of fire by about 25% over wing guns.

The episode featured America's top ace, Richard Bong, in a Dec 27, 1942 dogfight. He missed four aircraft and then shot two down in about a minute. A shame he was killed in a P-80 accident just as the war ended.

Good episode.

Mike:

I agree about Bong, it was a shame to survived all that air combat to die in a plane accident back home. I seem to recall reading that he wasn't very familiar with the P-80 and may have inadvertently applied power at the wrong time and lost control. Although I can't for the life of me see why he would be allowed to fly that plane if he wasn't checked out on it.

[old_pop2000]

Mike:

I agree about Bong, it was a shame to survived all that air combat to die in a plane accident back home. I seem to recall reading that he wasn't very familiar with the P-80 and may have inadvertently applied power at the wrong time and lost control. Although I can't for the life of me see why he would be allowed to fly that plane if he wasn't checked out on it.


Bong failed to turn on his electrical backup pump as the aircraft was beginning its takeoff roll, when the primary failed, he had no fuel flow and black puffs of smoke were seen being emitted from the engine, just after lift off, the engine failed. His canopy came off, but he was too low. The P-80 had a tendency to flip over on its back at stall speeds, and its stall warning was poor. When it did stall it would break to the right also. Poor metallurgy plagued the engine program for a while.

Milo Burcham, a famous Lockheed test pilot was killed in the same way, with an engine flameout.

Tony Laver, another famous Lockheed test pilot had the same problem before Milo, but managed to get out, but with serious back injuries.

Six more engine related failures actually occurred.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Bong failed to turn on his electrical backup pump as the aircraft was beginning its takeoff roll, when the primary failed, he had no fuel flow and black puffs of smoke were seen being emitted from the engine, just after lift off, the engine failed. His canopy came off, but he was too low. The P-80 had a tendency to flip over on its back at stall speeds, and its stall warning was poor. When it did stall it would break to the right also. Poor metallurgy plagued the engine program for a while.

Milo Burcham, a famous Lockheed test pilot was killed in the same way, with an engine flameout.

Tony Laver, another famous Lockheed test pilot had the same problem before Milo, but managed to get out, but with serious back injuries.

Six more engine related failures actually occurred.

Dennis:

The early jet days were risky times for pilots.