WWII was not a just war...

[fred8615]

...at least according to this author:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/06/12/nicholson.baker.ap/index.html

[old_pop2000]

...at least according to this author:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/06/12/nicholson.baker.ap/index.html
I guess this goes back to his first amendment rights of freedom of speech. I also have my rights; the freedom to not read the book and disagree with his stance. Another revisionist in the long long if count them as they go by.

[ksf1973]

Yeah, I read that story too, and had one of those "what the hell" moments...:rolleyes:

[Kyle Holgate]

Interesting article, but I think commenting on it beyond just saying it's interesting would get us into no-no political subject matter very quickly!

[Ed Rotondaro]

...at least according to this author:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/06/12/nicholson.baker.ap/index.html


Fred:

Having an avowed pacifist write about WWII is like having an advocate for gun control write about hand guns. They are letting their personal opinions color their judgement. Also this shows what happens when an amateur tries to dabble in the complex world of military and political history. He does a disservice to the memories of the brave men and women who struggled to end the worst forms of tyranny the world ever saw.

[fred8615]

Fred:

Having an avowed pacifist write about WWII is like having an advocate for gun control write about hand guns. They are letting their personal opinions color their judgement. Also this shows what happens when an amateur tries to dabble in the complex world of military and political history. He does a disservice to the memories of the brave men and women who struggled to end the worst forms of tyranny the world ever saw.
I agree 100%!! It bugs the @$#%& out of me whenever I hear someone basically say the Allies were no better than the Axis, or the war was really their fault, etc.

[old_pop2000]

I agree 100%!! It bugs the @$#%& out of me whenever I hear someone basically say the Allies were no better than the Axis, or the war was really their fault, etc.


It seems easy to be a pacifist, while enjoying the freedoms that our military has provided, over the years. Seems the gentleman needs a reality check. However, the constitution and our laws were provided to protect all our rights. I wouldn't want it any other way, but I don't have to read or listen to him.

[Saffron]

I had a debate once with one of those "wonderful" historical revisionists who believe FDR goaded Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, etc. He, too, is an avowed pacifist. He tried to explain to me the virtues of pacifism and listed several historical figures who "supposedly" were pacifists: Ghandi, Lincoln, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, and several others.

My response to him was:

True pacifism denies even the right of self-defense. Therefore, any group or individual that practices an ideology that assures its own destruction is an evolutionary dead-end. After all, Ghandi, Lincoln, Lennon, and MLK were all assassinated.

[old_pop2000]

I had a debate once with one of those "wonderful" historical revisionists who believe FDR goaded Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, etc. He, too, is an avowed pacifist. He tried to explain to me the virtues of pacifism and listed several historical figures who "supposedly" were pacifists: Ghandi, Lincoln, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, and several others.

My response to him was:

True pacifism denies even the right of self-defense. Therefore, any group or individual that practices an ideology that assures its own destruction is an evolutionary dead-end. After all, Ghandi, Lincoln, Lennon, and MLK were all assassinated.


Nicely done. My congrats. A person after me own heart.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I agree 100%!! It bugs the @$#%& out of me whenever I hear someone basically say the Allies were no better than the Axis, or the war was really their fault, etc.

Fred:

Some people prefer controversy as it prevents them from being ignored.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I had a debate once with one of those "wonderful" historical revisionists who believe FDR goaded Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, etc. He, too, is an avowed pacifist. He tried to explain to me the virtues of pacifism and listed several historical figures who "supposedly" were pacifists: Ghandi, Lincoln, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, and several others.

My response to him was:

True pacifism denies even the right of self-defense. Therefore, any group or individual that practices an ideology that assures its own destruction is an evolutionary dead-end. After all, Ghandi, Lincoln, Lennon, and MLK were all assassinated.


Saffy:

Most pacifists have never stared down the barrel of gun while being ordered to a relocation camp or watching their families get hauled away. Or as they used to say, "A liberal is person who hasn't been mugged yet".

[Ed Rotondaro]

Nicely done. My congrats. A person after me own heart.


Dennis:

That's why she the teacher and we aren't!

[Citadelvette]

I had a debate once with one of those "wonderful" historical revisionists who believe FDR goaded Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, etc. He, too, is an avowed pacifist. He tried to explain to me the virtues of pacifism and listed several historical figures who "supposedly" were pacifists: Ghandi, Lincoln, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, and several others.

My response to him was:

True pacifism denies even the right of self-defense. Therefore, any group or individual that practices an ideology that assures its own destruction is an evolutionary dead-end. After all, Ghandi, Lincoln, Lennon, and MLK were all assassinated.

Lincoln as a pacifist. That's funny. He sends a steamer into Charleston harbor to resupply Sumter know it will be shot on Jan 9th 1861 and in April goads the South into shooting first so he doesn't have to. He place's Maryland and Deleware under martial law and uses the army to supress the secessionist there while canceling the writ of habeus corpus (something only Congress can do). His record of breaking the Constitution is pretty long and some might say desperate times call for desperate measures, I've yet to decide but one thiongs for sure. We'd all be better of abandoning the myth and legends surronding these historical figure and focus on reality. Turning off rant mode to avoid nasty politcal comments now.

[john964]

Correct me if I am wrong but IIRC the Allies did not go out of there way to commit acts war crimes, though they did commit what might be considered war crimes ie Dresden and Hamburg. But I think 20+ million Chiniese, 6 million Jews and 5 million others considered undisirable would argue the point most violently as to wether WWII was a just war.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Correct me if I am wrong but IIRC the Allies did not go out of there way to commit acts war crimes, though they did commit what might be considered war crimes ie Dresden and Hamburg. But I think 20+ million Chiniese, 6 million Jews and 5 million others considered undisirable would argue the point most violently as to wether WWII was a just war.

John:

I would say that pretty much expresses my opinion as well. I used to hope that the Second World War had taught the world had to not target innocent civilians or to engage in what is now refered to as "ethnic cleansing", but recent events have sadly shown that "civilized nations" can commit attrocities against their own people or their neighbors. Vast power can fall into evil hands and science can be used to destroy rather than advance the human race.

[Warship NWS]

Just a friendly reminder..

Let's take care not to get into political debates here.. political reference points or history is fine but not debates.

Thanks. ;)

[djcyclone]

I had a debate once with one of those "wonderful" historical revisionists who believe FDR goaded Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, etc. He, too, is an avowed pacifist. He tried to explain to me the virtues of pacifism and listed several historical figures who "supposedly" were pacifists: Ghandi, Lincoln, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, and several others.

My response to him was:

True pacifism denies even the right of self-defense. Therefore, any group or individual that practices an ideology that assures its own destruction is an evolutionary dead-end. After all, Ghandi, Lincoln, Lennon, and MLK were all assassinated.



How the hell was Lincoln a pacifist? Pacifism means no fighting at all, and Lincoln let the U.S. into our only Civil War. If he had been a pacifist then he would have backed down to the South and let them go. MLK was not a pacifist either. He did not want to be violent, but at the same time he was willing to lead thousands apon thousands of African Americans in protest. These protest could have easily turned violent, and in some cases did.

Lennon was not a Pacifist either. He led the people of Russia into one of the bloodiest civil wars of all time. Out of all those people, Ghandi was the only one who was actually a pacifist, and in my opinion he was @#$%^&* BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!

It is well noted that he constantly urged the United Kingdom to sue for peace with Germany, but when all of the Hollacost facts came out, he still stuck to the fact that he believed that peace was possible. I would have shot him on the spot if I had been their. Few things make me as sick as listening to a selfish pacifist. Lets see them stand their and preach for peace when their mother is being raped in front of them, or drug off to be gassed in a gas chamber.

They scream for peace, peace, peace, but let theire rights to speak freely be threatened and then lets see where they stand.

[Warship NWS]

Hey DJ, please read my post above about "political debates".. thanks. ;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hey DJ, please read my post above about "political debates".. thanks. ;)


Chris:

You'll never get anything done this way LMAO! How's it going boss?:D

[Warship NWS]

Chris:

You'll never get anything done this way LMAO! How's it going boss?:D

If this topic got cut loose.. oh boy.. it would be like trying to moderate a multi-national simultaneous artillery barrage during WW1. LOL! ;)

[john964]

How the hell was Lincoln a pacifist? Pacifism means no fighting at all, and Lincoln let the U.S. into our only Civil War. If he had been a pacifist then he would have backed down to the South and let them go. MLK was not a pacifist either. He did not want to be violent, but at the same time he was willing to lead thousands apon thousands of African Americans in protest. These protest could have easily turned violent, and in some cases did.

Lennon was not a Pacifist either. He led the people of Russia into one of the bloodiest civil wars of all time. Out of all those people, Ghandi was the only one who was actually a pacifist, and in my opinion he was @#$%^&* BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!

It is well noted that he constantly urged the United Kingdom to sue for peace with Germany, but when all of the Hollacost facts came out, he still stuck to the fact that he believed that peace was possible. I would have shot him on the spot if I had been their. Few things make me as sick as listening to a selfish pacifist. Lets see them stand their and preach for peace when their mother is being raped in front of them, or drug off to be gassed in a gas chamber.

They scream for peace, peace, peace, but let theire rights to speak freely be threatened and then lets see where they stand.
Is the original poster refering to John Lennon ex Beatle or Vladimir Linien

[Warship NWS]

Is the original poster refering to John Lennon ex Beatle or Vladimir Linien

I was wondering that myself. ;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Is the original poster refering to John Lennon ex Beatle or Vladimir Linien

John:

Its Lenin. Let's get the spelling right LOL! You guys (especially DJ) need spell checker! Only kidding.:D

[keschofield]

Hi gang. I don't mean to be the fly in the ointment but ...

Has anybody actually READ this guy's book? I know that I was intially turned off by the description, but I haven't read the book. It would be interesting to see what the author ACTUALLY SAYS.

Somebody wiser than me (I don't recall who it was) once said, "I've never seen anything so dangerous that it couldn't be talked about."

Not reading the book before condemning it smacks of doing some of the same things that my unlamented ancestors did in the 1930's.