Small Arms on Warships

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi all:

I don't know how many of you remember the movie "Crimson Tide" with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington, but I'm curious as to just how many small arms would be on a modern warship. The movie made it look like there were weapons for every member of the crew. Now obviously this is totally impractical on a ship the size of a supercarrier, or is it? Since Marine detachments are no longer carried on ships, it's up to the crew to see to the ship's security. So do the crew have to qualify with small arms the way ground forces do? Are certain portions of the crew or divisions tasked with providing security on the ship?

I imagine that Scott and some of our former naval members can shed some light on this topic without giving away any classified data.

[Citadelvette]

I have a great many Navy buddies and all of them qualified at least on the M9 and most on the M14 and/or M16/M4.

[asnrobert]

On the subs I served on, we had on board M1911 .45 caliber pistols, Mossberg shotguns and M14 rifles. In port we had two sentries topside, one with a .45 and the other with a shotgun. In civilian ports, a sentry with an M14 was in the sail- I heard stories about those sentries falling asleep up there, and on one occasion even dropping the weapon down to the deck (supposedly while an admiral was coming aboard).

What we thought was a big joke was that we were not allowed to carry our weapons loaded. So if we were rushed by terrorists, we had to politely ask them to refrain from killing us until we could load our weapons....

[djcyclone]

I remember the movie. I have trouble with the smoking on a submarine, but then again I never served on a sub and so I do not know for sure.

Anyway there are considerable amount of guns on a ship. My Destroyer had more than their share. I had to qualify for the 9mm, and even though I never qualified for the m14 I caried it on a considerable amount of watches. Crews have to qualify, because when a ship is in port it is weakest. The crew is divided into three or four sections and you if you have a 4 section duty rotation you stand two watches in a day and then you get three days off. The watches are anything from officer of the deck, to rover. If the ship is at anchor then a quartermaster of the watch is necisary to make sure the anchor is not dragging. The rover is the only one who carries the m14, and he/or she walks the entire ship at regular intervals. The quarterdeck is maintained by two or three people all with 9mm's. This is where the crew comes on and leaves. Some people are unfortunate enough to stand pier watch, or even maintain diver defense by being in a patrol craft.

Of course the ship holds drills on a regular basis, and the commander often comes up with interesting scenarios. I had to qualify for counter terrorism courses in which we practice taking the ship away from terrorist. The only thing I will say about that is that the soap bullets hurt like hell. Take a paint ball gun and multiply it by about 5 and now you have the pain equivelent to an actual bullet with a hard soap cartridge surrounded by plastic instead of a metal casing. Ouch!!! It will put a person on the ground, so there is never any question of who got shot and who did not. Oh and you normally get shot about 10 times in some of the gunfights we had to go through. You can enter a room and the person selected to play terrorist is just sitting there with a gun already pointed at you. By the time you shoot you have already been shot three or more times.

[djcyclone]

The navy still uses m14, and has not switched to m16's yet. I do not think they ever will, but that is just my opinion. The 9mm is the standerd pistol. We carried our weapons loaded, but in stage two as they called it.

Stage 1 is with a bullet in the chamber and the gun cocked and ready to fire with the safty off.

Stage 2 is a magazine in the gun, safty on, and no round in the chamber.

Stage 3 is safty on, no magazine, thus no bullet in the chamber and so on.

When I served 9-11 was still fresh on everbody's minds, so we where extra vigilant. I remember a robot being used to go through a bookbag because some sailor had left it in the parking lot. The bomb dogs where off duty since it was the weekend, so they brought the robot. The robot opened the bag and pulled out a pair of dirty underware:D

Yes I am seriouse, because I was on watch when it happened. It was nothing but dirty laundry that had been left by accident. During another occasion, all of the ships in the harbor started pinging active sonar because a sailor saw what appeared to be a scuba diver. They said they never found nothing, but if someone had been in the harbor they would have been killed.

[ksf1973]

I still remember when I went to the theatre with a buddy of mine to see that film. It had been running for about two weeks and had been moved to a small screening room in the basement. We went in, the doors closed behind us, and we realised we were going to be the only people there for that screening...:D

I remember that more than the film itself; it was a little bleh to me.

[john964]

Hi all:

I don't know how many of you remember the movie "Crimson Tide" with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington, but I'm curious as to just how many small arms would be on a modern warship. The movie made it look like there were weapons for every member of the crew. Now obviously this is totally impractical on a ship the size of a supercarrier, or is it? Since Marine detachments are no longer carried on ships, it's up to the crew to see to the ship's security. So do the crew have to qualify with small arms the way ground forces do? Are certain portions of the crew or divisions tasked with providing security on the ship?

I imagine that Scott and some of our former naval members can shed some light on this topic without giving away any classified data.Ed, My ship carried at least 1 small arm for every crew member IIRC we had M1911 M14 Pump shot guns M60 and M2. We had 2 arms lockers 1 small one off the mid-ships quarterdeck and 1 large one aft near the aft DC locker. When we were at some overseas port and we had trouble with local protesters we would man fire hoses with a enginer ready to light off all 6 fire pumps, we normaly only had one operating if there was a fire they would light off another.

[Scott Chisholm]

The navy still uses m14, and has not switched to m16's yet. I do not think they ever will, but that is just my opinion.

The M14 can be modified to shoot shotlines during UNREPs; the M16 does not have that modification, which is why we have not shifted over to them.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

Thanks to everyone for sharing details on this subject. The marines are probably glad to be off ship with all those half trained sailors running around with loaded firearms LOL! Especially Scott.:D

[Scott Chisholm]

Hi:

Thanks to everyone for sharing details on this subject. The marines are probably glad to be off ship with all those half trained sailors running around with loaded firearms LOL! Especially Scott.:D

Hey, Shipmate! I'm a Texas boy, remember. I shot a 212 the first time I ever held a .45. The only reason I didn't shoot "Expert" was due to my inability to see the bullet holes in the "10" ring, so I put three in the upper right corner (0 points) of the target just to ensure I was hitting the silly thing....

The thing that always confused my Gunner's Mates was the fact that I shoot a pistol with my right hand, and a rifle with my left....

[john964]

Hey, Shipmate! I'm a Texas boy, remember. I shot a 212 the first time I ever held a .45. The only reason I didn't shoot "Expert" was due to my inability to see the bullet holes in the "10" ring, so I put three in the upper right corner (0 points) of the target just to ensure I was hitting the silly thing....

The thing that always confused my Gunner's Mates was the fact that I shoot a pistol with my right hand, and a rifle with my left....Scott you ain't the only one I shoot with a rifle right and a pistol with my left.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hey, Shipmate! I'm a Texas boy, remember. I shot a 212 the first time I ever held a .45. The only reason I didn't shoot "Expert" was due to my inability to see the bullet holes in the "10" ring, so I put three in the upper right corner (0 points) of the target just to ensure I was hitting the silly thing....

The thing that always confused my Gunner's Mates was the fact that I shoot a pistol with my right hand, and a rifle with my left....

Scott:

Well that's mighty fine shootin' Tex!:D

[Scott Chisholm]

Scott you ain't the only one I shoot with a rifle right and a pistol with my left.

Ed,

WHY do you always have to be so backwards?! :D

[Kyle Holgate]

I much preferred the M-14 rifle to the M-16 when I fired them. I got expert with the M-14, but then again I cheated and grew up on a farm shooting a 30-30 that wasn't much different.
With the pistol I got 12 hits out of 10 shots once too! My CO was next to me, shooting at my target. He either hit only with 2 or shot the others at his own then a few at mine - pretty funny, I gave him a hard time about that for a while (respectfully of course!). I expected an expert ribbon for the pistol too, 12 hits from 10 rounds should be worths something! Darn Navy, didn't agree. :mad:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,

WHY do you always have to be so backwards?! :D

Scott:

Must be from living in a state that doesn't encourage gun ownership. That or being a Democrat. But it could be worse, I could live in Texas where you rednecks live LOL!

[john964]

Scott:

Must be from living in a state that doesn't encourage gun ownership. That or being a Democrat. But it could be worse, I could live in Texas where you rednecks live LOL!

Ed, I hate to be the one to inform you but Rednecks are present in everystate in the union. They are just more prevalent in the sotheren United States.

[Warship NWS]

Ed, I hate to be the one to inform you but Rednecks are present in everystate in the union. They are just more prevalent in the sotheren United States.

I think Ed was trying to be funny again..;) He needs to learn how to use more emoticons.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed, I hate to be the one to inform you but Rednecks are present in everystate in the union. They are just more prevalent in the sotheren United States.

John:

Actually that's fairly true. The county I live in is predominately rural and has loads of farms, orchards, tree farms, etc. And you can even get a hand gun permit fairly easily compared to most counties in NYS. Country music and Nascar are very popular around my neck of the woods, mainly because once you get out of any of the upstate cities, its all farmland or just plain countryside. I'm just bustin' Chisolm's butt 'cuz he likes to take sly shots at me from the safety of cyberspace.:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

I think Ed was trying to be funny again..;) He needs to learn how to use more emoticons.

Chris:

I usually do, but since Scott hadn't used one I had to take preemptive action:D Seriously though I have no problem with where anyone comes from, that's what makes the US still a great nation. And most of my wife's family now live in states below the Mason Dixon line (transplanted New Yorkers, the most dangerous creatures alive:D)

[keschofield]

Ed, I hate to be the one to inform you but Rednecks are present in everystate in the union. They are just more prevalent in the sotheren United States.

I come from a long line of Illinois farmers but live in Georgia. I can tell you one thing for sure, the only difference between a Georgia redneck and an Illinois dirt farmer is which side of the Civil War their great-great grandfathers fought on.:D

[ksf1973]

You guys with your shooting...:D

When I was in the Danish army, I had to qualify with two rifles, as one was replacing the other. I scored average with the G-3, and slightly above average with the C-7 (it was easier to aim for me).

I suppose if I'd grown up with a lot of guns around me I'd have done better, but that's just not the way we do things in these here parts...:cool:

[Ed Rotondaro]

I come from a long line of Illinois farmers but live in Georgia. I can tell you one thing for sure, the only difference between a Georgia redneck and an Illinois dirt farmer is which side of the Civil War their great-great grandfathers fought on.:D

Kurt:

That is so true. Even when I visited Wisconsin, once I was with my wife's uncles and aunts who live in a small town, they could have been from Alabama except for the accents. They were either dairy farmers or cheese makers.

[Citadelvette]

Kurt:

That is so true. Even when I visited Wisconsin, once I was with my wife's uncles and aunts who live in a small town, they could have been from Alabama except for the accents. They were either dairy farmers or cheese makers.

My girlfriend and her family are from New Jersey but when I traveled (very cautiously) above the Mason-Dixon to visit them I thought it was the 1960s at a George Wallace rally!:D

[paladin5]

John:

Actually that's fairly true. The county I live in is predominately rural and has loads of farms, orchards, tree farms, etc. And you can even get a hand gun permit fairly easily compared to most counties in NYS. Country music and Nascar are very popular around my neck of the woods, mainly because once you get out of any of the upstate cities, its all farmland or just plain countryside. I'm just bustin' Chisolm's butt 'cuz he likes to take sly shots at me from the safety of cyberspace.:D



Trust me you haven't seen rural until you have been to my part of iowa.

[Ed Rotondaro]

My girlfriend and her family are from New Jersey but when I traveled (very cautiously) above the Mason-Dixon to visit them I thought it was the 1960s at a George Wallace rally!:D

Citadel:

Joisy as well New Yawkers call it is a crazy place at the best of times LOL! If it wasn't for its excellent beach towns, nobody would live there. But you can find really good Italian restaurants there. (Ed now covers up expecting angry volleys from any forum members from NJ).

[Ed Rotondaro]

Trust me you haven't seen rural until you have been to my part of iowa.

Michael:

Is Iowa as flat as they say?

[Scott Chisholm]

Michael:

Is Iowa as flat as they say?

Ed,

Iowa's flat , but I don't think it has anything on the Coastal Plains of South Texas. My home town of Kingsville is ~35 miles directly inland from the ocean and sits at a whopping 70 feet above sea level.

[Smiffy]

When I served in RN minesweepers in the '70s. We had 4 SLRs (FN Rifles), 2 Stirling SMGs and 2 Browning 9mm pistols in the arms locker. There were a couple more Brownings in the Wardroom locker and, I think, the Captain had a personal issue Browning.

As far as I am aware the only small arm carried on a British SSBN is a single police truncheon, certainly not the arsenal they had in "Crimson Tide"!

[john964]

Ed,

Iowa's flat , but I don't think it has anything on the Coastal Plains of South Texas. My home town of Kingsville is ~35 miles directly inland from the ocean and sits at a whopping 70 feet above sea level.
Try Florida IIRC the highest point in the state is 435ft. Now that is flat.

[djcyclone]

I live in Illinois, and I am not a redneck. I have listened to Jeff Foxworthy and I do not qualify one bit. I did grow up around farms, but I am not a farmer. Farmers are for the most part cheap and they all listen to country music.

Okay that might be stereotyping a little bit, or a lot, but you get the idea. I worked for a farmer that made 7,000,000 dollars every year from his crops. He had 4 combines and an assortment of 4wd tracters as well as standerd tracters. All of the vehicles are brand new every year because he leases them from John Deere. The point I am trying to make is that he only pays his employees 8.00 an hour. I do not suppose that qulifies as cheap, maybe pathetic is a better term.

That is just one example, but I have many other stories. Anyway I will never call myself a farmer, and I live in Illinoise. They do all listen to country music, because they feel that it is a code that they must fallow or something. I will quit while I am ahead.:p

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,

Iowa's flat , but I don't think it has anything on the Coastal Plains of South Texas. My home town of Kingsville is ~35 miles directly inland from the ocean and sits at a whopping 70 feet above sea level.

Scott:

But if that wasn't low enough for you, the Navy sends you to Corpus Christi a port town. How's civilian my good friend?:)

[Ed Rotondaro]

When I served in RN minesweepers in the '70s. We had 4 SLRs (FN Rifles), 2 Stirling SMGs and 2 Browning 9mm pistols in the arms locker. There were a couple more Brownings in the Wardroom locker and, I think, the Captain had a personal issue Browning.

As far as I am aware the only small arm carried on a British SSBN is a single police truncheon, certainly not the arsenal they had in "Crimson Tide"!

Smiffy:

Thanks. Had you ever seen any of those old pre-WWII Lanchester 9mm submachine guns? They were primarily used by the RN and were examples of the old style of making fireams, really well crafted and extremely heavy compared to the Stirlings. They served on well past WWII.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Try Florida IIRC the highest point in the state is 435ft. Now that is flat.

John:

Chris says most of the state is a flood plain. Yikes.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I live in Illinois, and I am not a redneck. I have listened to Jeff Foxworthy and I do not qualify one bit. I did grow up around farms, but I am not a farmer. Farmers are for the most part cheap and they all listen to country music.

Okay that might be stereotyping a little bit, or a lot, but you get the idea. I worked for a farmer that made 7,000,000 dollars every year from his crops. He had 4 combines and an assortment of 4wd tracters as well as standerd tracters. All of the vehicles are brand new every year because he leases them from John Deere. The point I am trying to make is that he only pays his employees 8.00 an hour. I do not suppose that qulifies as cheap, maybe pathetic is a better term.

That is just one example, but I have many other stories. Anyway I will never call myself a farmer, and I live in Illinoise. They do all listen to country music, because they feel that it is a code that they must fallow or something. I will quit while I am ahead.:p

DJ:

How's your new job?

[paladin5]

Michael:

Is Iowa as flat as they say?


That depends on the region of the state you are in. My region, northwest iowa, tends to be fairly flat but the southern region can be rather hilly. However if you want to see a flat state try South Dakota.

[keschofield]

I live in Illinois, and I am not a redneck. I have listened to Jeff Foxworthy and I do not qualify one bit. I did grow up around farms, but I am not a farmer. Farmers are for the most part cheap and they all listen to country music.

Okay that might be stereotyping a little bit, or a lot, but you get the idea. I worked for a farmer that made 7,000,000 dollars every year from his crops. He had 4 combines and an assortment of 4wd tracters as well as standerd tracters. All of the vehicles are brand new every year because he leases them from John Deere. The point I am trying to make is that he only pays his employees 8.00 an hour. I do not suppose that qulifies as cheap, maybe pathetic is a better term.

That is just one example, but I have many other stories. Anyway I will never call myself a farmer, and I live in Illinoise. They do all listen to country music, because they feel that it is a code that they must fallow or something. I will quit while I am ahead.:p


Careful boy .... Remember where your food comes from. (Just kidding in the same vein as you were);). There are some parts of Chicago that seem as far away from the farms as NYC.

I'm part owner of a farm in Illinois (although I live in Georgia) and I don't listen to country music (much). :D

[Ed Rotondaro]

Careful boy .... Remember where your food comes from. (Just kidding in the same vein as you were);). There are some parts of Chicago that seem as far away from the farms as NYC.

I'm part owner of a farm in Illinois (although I live in Georgia) and I don't listen to country music (much). :D

Kurt:

What do you grow on the farm? Corn? Wheat? Soy? Still loving being in the semi-country here in Saratoga county while being 15 minutes away from Albany and the center of power. There's nothing wrong with country music, just listen to it 15 mintues a day and then switch over to classic rock like I do.

[keschofield]

Hi Ed,

Our farm is dedicated to corn and soybeans. I don't know how big and what kind of farm DJ was talking about that earned $7million, but it sure wasn't ours. We have 320 acres (I only have an interest in 160 acres). Last year (a good year) our profit was only about 3 tenths of a per cent (thats 0.3%) of that. Fuel, equipment, and fertilizer costs are growing exponentially!

Actually my mother owns the farm. She grew up on it. I am only assuming that I will inherit a piece of it someday (I hope that day is a long, long way off!). She lives near my sister near Concord, NH and manages the farm from a distance.

Country music is a strange beast. It can be quite compelling ... for a short time. After that it repeats itself. I much prefer classic rock. But in Atlanta classic rock is getting referred to as "geezer" rock and there is only one station playing it. Even that one station has a love affair with Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. Other stuff filters in occasionally but never any deep cuts. I guess we're getting old my brother!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

Our farm is dedicated to corn and soybeans. I don't know how big and what kind of farm DJ was talking about that earned $7million, but it sure wasn't ours. We have 320 acres (I only have an interest in 160 acres). Last year (a good year) our profit was only about 3 tenths of a per cent (thats 0.3%) of that. Fuel, equipment, and fertilizer costs are growing exponentially!

Actually my mother owns the farm. She grew up on it. I am only assuming that I will inherit a piece of it someday (I hope that day is a long, long way off!). She lives near my sister near Concord, NH and manages the farm from a distance.

Country music is a strange beast. It can be quite compelling ... for a short time. After that it repeats itself. I much prefer classic rock. But in Atlanta classic rock is getting referred to as "geezer" rock and there is only one station playing it. Even that one station has a love affair with Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. Other stuff filters in occasionally but never any deep cuts. I guess we're getting old my brother!

Kurt:

From what I've read, the larger conglomerate farms may be the wave of the future for American agriculture. Farms managed from a distance also are becoming more typical. A few years back I took my family to a open house at a minor dairy farm in Saratoga county. One of the guys showing us around managed four other farms with outsourced labor. He said the biggest problem was finding people willing to work for very low wages in agriculture. By combining several farms into one operation he was able to spread out costs and keep them running. The big problem is to avoid farms managed by agricorps that will use any means to cuts costs (genetic crops, too much fertilizer, etc.)

Country music is simple. Rock is simple. But simple is good and I'm fortunate that we have a wide range of radio stations around here with college stations giving us cutting edge stuff and Clear Channel (the Great Satan of entertainment) providing all the rest (adult oriented rock, classic rock, so-called cutting edge rock etc.). We can always download whatever we want these days to our iPods or MP3 players I guess.

[djcyclone]

Kurt:

What do you grow on the farm? Corn? Wheat? Soy? Still loving being in the semi-country here in Saratoga county while being 15 minutes away from Albany and the center of power. There's nothing wrong with country music, just listen to it 15 mintues a day and then switch over to classic rock like I do.



15 Minutes??? Do you need 15 minutes of depression everyday or something??? 15 minutes of depression and then you turn to classic rock to fall in love all over again.:D

"LONG NECK BOTTLE, LET GO OF MY HAND. THERE'S A GIRL AT HOME THAT LOVES ME, AND I KNOW SHE WON'T UNDERSTAND" (Garth Brooks)

"THERE'S A TEAR IN MY BEER CAUSE I'M CRYEN FOR YOU DEAR" (George Straight)

"THAT AINT MY TRUCK IN HER DRIVE" (Forgot)

(God if I could only type with a southern accent I could make
this a lot worse.)

Hay you know what you get when you play a country song backwards???

You get your dog back, your truck back, your girl comes home, and you find out your not going to die after all.:D

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE:p

[Warship NWS]

John:

Chris says most of the state is a flood plain. Yikes.

I don't remember saying that.. however, we do have some hills just nothing like what is further north of state line. We have a house on a rise so flooding is not a problem for us - that was tested with 5 hurricanes withint our first year of owning a house and passed.

As it always goes, it is all about location and elevation.

[djcyclone]

Hi Ed,

I don't know how big and what kind of farm DJ was talking about that earned $7million, but it sure wasn't ours.



This guy farms 20,000 Acres spead out all over Illinois. He only owns 20 acres or so, but rents all of the rest. He rents the rest becuase he destroys the ground. He only plants corn, and then sprays fertilizer so he can plant corn the next year. Fertilizer does have its limits and eventually the ground is unable to produce high yield since the man refuses to rotate his crops.

He has been doing this for well over 20 years, and has everything pretty well laid out. I drove a grain semi for him hauling grain from the fields to the elevators. The job is 12 too 14 hours a day of pure slave labour, and nothing short of high way robbery. I was working 1 hour and 1/2 every day just to pay for the fuel to get too work and go home.

There was one occasion where the farmer told me I could go home cause he didn't have any work for me. He said he would call me if anything came up, and then I could go back out there. I said forget it, if I go home I stay home, and I will see you in the morning. I do not think he liked that answer vary much, but I didn't care.

[djcyclone]

Just to answer one last question for ED. The job is great, I am in an office with 9 women and one other guy. Everyone has a great sense of humor, and so the day goes by really quickly.



I definetly cannot complain.

[Ed Rotondaro]

This guy farms 20,000 Acres spead out all over Illinois. He only owns 20 acres or so, but rents all of the rest. He rents the rest becuase he destroys the ground. He only plants corn, and then sprays fertilizer so he can plant corn the next year. Fertilizer does have its limits and eventually the ground is unable to produce high yield since the man refuses to rotate his crops.

He has been doing this for well over 20 years, and has everything pretty well laid out. I drove a grain semi for him hauling grain from the fields to the elevators. The job is 12 too 14 hours a day of pure slave labour, and nothing short of high way robbery. I was working 1 hour and 1/2 every day just to pay for the fuel to get too work and go home.

There was one occasion where the farmer told me I could go home cause he didn't have any work for me. He said he would call me if anything came up, and then I could go back out there. I said forget it, if I go home I stay home, and I will see you in the morning. I do not think he liked that answer vary much, but I didn't care.

DJ:

That will be the fate of American farms if the conglomerates take over. And yeah they will pay worse than Wal Mart.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Just to answer one last question for ED. The job is great, I am in an office with 9 women and one other guy. Everyone has a great sense of humor, and so the day goes by really quickly.



I definetly cannot complain.


DJ:

Sounds great. Good luck, you've earned it sailor.;)