Soviet army verses IJA in 8/1945...

[bridav58]

A certain debate I've been having about comparing how easily the Red Army smashed the Kawatung army in August,1945 in Manchuria to the US assaulting several island fortresses during the War. Another gentleman says there is no difference between some of the Japanese fortified areas in Manchuria verses the fortifications on an island like Iwo Jima or Okinawa now I've stated assaulting the latter is much,much harder because the logistics is much harder & you can't retreat or regroup like you can in a mainland type setting.
Now in your all's opinion just how much harder is to assault say Okinawa,Tarawa,Pelielieu , or Iwo Jima verse taking on fortifications in say the Maginot Line or Siegfried Line or say Fort Ebaen Emael?

[asnrobert]

Just my two cents-

I think getting troops on to a beach is alot harder than assaulting a landlocked fortification for the reason you mentioned.

[JMS]

In an island, there's also no possibility of maneuver and/or deception regarding the landing point.

[john964]

A certain debate I've been having about comparing how easily the Red Army smashed the Kawatung army in August,1945 in Manchuria to the US assaulting several island fortresses during the War. Another gentleman says there is no difference between some of the Japanese fortified areas in Manchuria verses the fortifications on an island like Iwo Jima or Okinawa now I've stated assaulting the latter is much,much harder because the logistics is much harder & you can't retreat or regroup like you can in a mainland type setting.
Now in your all's opinion just how much harder is to assault say Okinawa,Tarawa,Pelielieu , or Iwo Jima verse taking on fortifications in say the Maginot Line or Siegfried Line or say Fort Ebaen Emael?
You may not be taking in to account that the IJA had pulled several of its best units to defend against Op Olympic IIRC from Jan to July 45 the number of division on Kyushu went from 3 to 12-15. The troops had to come from somewhere.

[keschofield]

Remember that the Kwangtung Army was essentially eviscerated by the Japanese high command long before the Soviets jumped in to pick up the scraps. Equipment, key personnel such as non-comms., officers, and especially pilots were routinely plucked from Manchuria and sent south and east.

By the time the Sovs attacked in August of '45, they overran an army that was little more than untrained militia with very limited equipment. The Sov forces were veterans of the overruning of Germany. What little equipment remained in the Kwangtung Army was complely outclassed by late war Sov equipment. Heck the Japanese equipment was outclassed by the Sovs in 1939 so by 1945 there was no contest.

Without effective means of stopping Sov armored armies from maneuvering anywhere they wanted to, the Japanese in Manchuria were doomed to a quick and violent end. Only American threats stopped the Sovs from landing on Kyushu.

[Ed Rotondaro]

A certain debate I've been having about comparing how easily the Red Army smashed the Kawatung army in August,1945 in Manchuria to the US assaulting several island fortresses during the War. Another gentleman says there is no difference between some of the Japanese fortified areas in Manchuria verses the fortifications on an island like Iwo Jima or Okinawa now I've stated assaulting the latter is much,much harder because the logistics is much harder & you can't retreat or regroup like you can in a mainland type setting.
Now in your all's opinion just how much harder is to assault say Okinawa,Tarawa,Pelielieu , or Iwo Jima verse taking on fortifications in say the Maginot Line or Siegfried Line or say Fort Ebaen Emael?

Brian:

Compare the casaulties in the Pacific versus those in the assaults in Europe. That answers it pretty much. With the exception of Hurtgen Forest which was bad generalship by the US and Italy which was just about impossible terrain, the Pacific islands were tougher because as you point out the lack of maneuver room. If an attack on the Siegfried Line failed, you could pull back. If an attack at Tarawa or Iwo failed, you had no where to run to but the sea.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Remember that the Kwangtung Army was essentially eviscerated by the Japanese high command long before the Soviets jumped in to pick up the scraps. Equipment, key personnel such as non-comms., officers, and especially pilots were routinely plucked from Manchuria and sent south and east.

By the time the Sovs attacked in August of '45, they overran an army that was little more than untrained militia with very limited equipment. The Sov forces were veterans of the overruning of Germany. What little equipment remained in the Kwangtung Army was complely outclassed by late war Sov equipment. Heck the Japanese equipment was outclassed by the Sovs in 1939 so by 1945 there was no contest.

Without effective means of stopping Sov armored armies from maneuvering anywhere they wanted to, the Japanese in Manchuria were doomed to a quick and violent end. Only American threats stopped the Sovs from landing on Kyushu.

Kurt:

Agreed, plus the Japanese Army was deficient in anti-tank weaponry of all kinds. And by 1945 very short on artillery.

[john964]

Without effective means of stopping Sov armored armies from maneuvering anywhere they wanted to, the Japanese in Manchuria were doomed to a quick and violent end. Only American threats stopped the Sovs from landing on Kyushu.

I don't think it was Kyushu the Sovs were planing to invade but Hokkaido. The biggest reason I see is proximity. The Russians had just charged down the Kuril Is chain and Sakailien Island.

Also the Red Army was heavly mechanized while the IJA was more of a leg infantry army. Also Japan had no tank that was worth anything. I read that just about every weapon in the US arsonal could punch the armour of japanese tanks.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I don't think it was Kyushu the Sovs were planing to invade but Hokkaido. The biggest reason I see is proximity. The Russians had just charged down the Kuril Is chain and Sakailien Island.

Also the Red Army was heavly mechanized while the IJA was more of a leg infantry army. Also Japan had no tank that was worth anything. I read that just about every weapon in the US arsonal could punch the armour of japanese tanks.

John:

That's basically true, the Japanese army favored infantry over all other arms. Strangely enough they lacked heavy artillery along the lines of 6" and larger except for a few old siege howitzers. I guess their doctrine did not stress massed artillery support, possibly due to their lack of ground combat experience in WWI.

The Japanese did have one semi-modern tank armed with a 75mm cannon that could have approximated the early Sherman tank in performance, but it was produced in very small numbers and never left the home islands. The rest of their tanks were more infantry support and scouting vehicles with very thin armor and nothing larger than a short barreled 37mm cannon. On Saipan, the US Marines fought a tank battle against approximately 20 Japanese tanks and hit them with everything from bazooka fire to Sherman tank fire. Every tank was destroyed and some were in so many pieces it was difficult to determine just how many tanks had attacked.

[Kyle Holgate]

I don't think it was Kyushu the Sovs were planing to invade but Hokkaido. The biggest reason I see is proximity. The Russians had just charged down the Kuril Is chain and Sakailien Island.

Also the Red Army was heavly mechanized while the IJA was more of a leg infantry army. Also Japan had no tank that was worth anything. I read that just about every weapon in the US arsonal could punch the armour of japanese tanks.

I think the Sovets would have had an eye opening experience if they'd tried to invade one of the main Japanese islands. They still have to get all their stuff and men ashore and keep Kamikaze boats, subs and planes from getting to whatever landing craft or ships they used for transport.

[asnrobert]

I think the Sovets would have had an eye opening experience if they'd tried to invade one of the main Japanese islands. They still have to get all their stuff and men ashore and keep Kamikaze boats, subs and planes from getting to whatever landing craft or ships they used for transport.

And the Soviets didn't have much in the way of amphibious training, equipment, or doctrine.

[Ed Rotondaro]

And the Soviets didn't have much in the way of amphibious training, equipment, or doctrine.


Robert:

You can bet they would be pressuring the USN for all the support they could pry away from Operations Olympic and Coronet. Our "allies".:rolleyes:

[djcyclone]

I think Russia would have gotten their tails handed too them. Japan was locked to the teeth. They had been turning Japan into a fortress from the moment they lost Midway. They had suicide subs, Kamikazies, mined beaches, and every Japanese Civilian would have been called to fight. Japanese are vary patriotic, and remember the government had been lying to them from the start of the war. They believed that they where in the right for the attacks they had made.

Russia would have had their cronomiters cleaned. Small Navy, no expierience in amphibiouse warfare. If the U.S. did not help, then Russia would not have stood a chance.

Just my thoughts on the situations.

[john964]

I don't know if Japan would have been able to repel an invasion by Russia. Japan was going for broke on trying to stop Olympic. By the end of July 45 the IJA had 12-15 division on Kyushu and by Nov 45 when the invasion was schedualed to take place they may have had as many as 23 division on Kyushu.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I don't know if Japan would have been able to repel an invasion by Russia. Japan was going for broke on trying to stop Olympic. By the end of July 45 the IJA had 12-15 division on Kyushu and by Nov 45 when the invasion was schedualed to take place they may have had as many as 23 division on Kyushu.

John:

Assuming Russian intends to invade, she would have timed it in conjuction with the US invasion. Stalin had been pressured by the US at the Yalta Conference to join the war against Japan and agreed to once Germany was defeated. Also, Japan wasn't expecting an invasion from that direction as you pointed out.

So if there is no nuclear strike and the US goes ahead with the invasion, we would have been pretty much honor bound to have supported Russia with both naval and airforces. Of course we could have always delayed claiming that Olympic was tying up a great deal of our resources.

[keschofield]

I don't think it was Kyushu the Sovs were planing to invade but Hokkaido. The biggest reason I see is proximity. The Russians had just charged down the Kuril Is chain and Sakailien Island.

Also the Red Army was heavly mechanized while the IJA was more of a leg infantry army. Also Japan had no tank that was worth anything. I read that just about every weapon in the US arsonal could punch the armour of japanese tanks.


You're probably right. I was relying on memory (which is getting more defective everyday :D).

Thanks for the update.

[Kyle Holgate]

Much depends on whether the Soviets could get their mechanized forces ashore without too much trouble or not. Once the tanks are rolling there may not be much the Japanese can do but die honorably. On the flip side though, without any practice or doctrine the Soviets would probably have troubles just going ashore on an undefended beach, let alone one with some kind of defenses. I don't think an Soviet invasion would come with surprise, there would be some indication that would get to the Japanese, and they'd do their best to defend against that as well as Olympic. Much like Germany, the Japanese may fear the Soviets more than the US - and actually pull forces from the southern island defense.
I too think that the Soviets would have a heck of a time and loose a lot of men - they may make it, they may not but it would be incredibly bloody either way.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Much depends on whether the Soviets could get their mechanized forces ashore without too much trouble or not. Once the tanks are rolling there may not be much the Japanese can do but die honorably. On the flip side though, without any practice or doctrine the Soviets would probably have troubles just going ashore on an undefended beach, let alone one with some kind of defenses. I don't think an Soviet invasion would come with surprise, there would be some indication that would get to the Japanese, and they'd do their best to defend against that as well as Olympic. Much like Germany, the Japanese may fear the Soviets more than the US - and actually pull forces from the southern island defense.
I too think that the Soviets would have a heck of a time and loose a lot of men - they may make it, they may not but it would be incredibly bloody either way.


Kyle:

As Dennis always says, have we checked the maps to see where the Russians could have feasibly landed? Was there a nearby port (always necessary in a major amphib op)? Not all parts of a coastline are suitable for invasions. I'm too lazy to check and I'm at work:)

[Kyle Holgate]

Kyle:

As Dennis always says, have we checked the maps to see where the Russians could have feasibly landed? Was there a nearby port (always necessary in a major amphib op)? Not all parts of a coastline are suitable for invasions. I'm too lazy to check and I'm at work:)

In this case it doesn't matter as far as my view. Even if they have a very nice beach they'll have problems in my view - and worse ones as their points of invasion get worse. The Japanese aren't going to be welcoming them ashore no matter where they come in, that's for sure.

[old_pop2000]

Kyle:

As Dennis always says, have we checked the maps to see where the Russians could have feasibly landed? Was there a nearby port (always necessary in a major amphib op)? Not all parts of a coastline are suitable for invasions. I'm too lazy to check and I'm at work:)
Since the Japanese are on the southern side of Sakahlin Island, if I were the Russians, that would be the first task. Clear the southern side of Sakahlin Island.

Next task is to invade Hokkaido, which is only 28.6 miles from the southern tip of Sakhalin Island. After that, buildup your air forces and defenses on Hokkaido, and hit Honshu across the strait. It's only 20.6 miles across from Hokkaido to Honshu.

Of course, the Japanese might have something to say about that, but that's the route. It keeps you within logistics range of Russian forces in Siberia and allows for the Russians to gain air superiority over the battlefield.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Since the Japanese are on the southern side of Sakahlin Island, if I were the Russians, that would be the first task. Clear the southern side of Sakahlin Island.

Next task is to invade Hokkaido, which is only 28.6 miles from the southern tip of Sakhalin Island. After that, buildup your air forces and defenses on Hokkaido, and hit Honshu across the strait. It's only 20.6 miles across from Hokkaido to Honshu.

Of course, the Japanese might have something to say about that, but that's the route. It keeps you within logistics range of Russian forces in Siberia and allows for the Russians to gain air superiority over the battlefield.

Dennis:

The biggest problem would be the same on the US was concerned with, namely protecting the ships from kamikaze attack. The Russians would have to gain air superiority before even attempting any invasion since they certainly lack enough ships to cover the landing craft.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

The biggest problem would be the same on the US was concerned with, namely protecting the ships from kamikaze attack. The Russians would have to gain air superiority before even attempting any invasion since they certainly lack enough ships to cover the landing craft.
Air superiority would be an absolute necessity. Using the route I layed out, would give them areas for numerous bases. It would also give them access to Japanese airfields in order to keep them under attack.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Air superiority would be an absolute necessity. Using the route I layed out, would give them areas for numerous bases. It would also give them access to Japanese airfields in order to keep them under attack.

Dennis:

It would have been interesting to see how well Russian aircraft performed against late war Japanese planes. I would definitely give the Russians the edge in pilot skill since Japan's airforces were decimated by this time and had to resort to suicide attacks.

[asnrobert]

Dennis:

It would have been interesting to see how well Russian aircraft performed against late war Japanese planes. I would definitely give the Russians the edge in pilot skill since Japan's airforces were decimated by this time and had to resort to suicide attacks.

Plus their lack of resources would have made meant that few, if any of the newer designs could be produced. Which meant you would have had a bunch of green-as-grass rookies flying obsolete junk (I recall reading that they were even pulling the old A5M 'Claudes' out of storage for Kamikaze attacks).

[Kyle Holgate]

The English channel is about 21 miles or so across at the narrowest point by comparison. This kept the Germans out (though they didn't really have their hearts set on the invasion in the first place). The Soviets will need landing craft of some sort for both troops and tanks that are fairly sea worthy. I don't know exactly the weather conditions common in the most likely landing areas, but I would think the water would not be glassy smooth.

As for fighters, the Hayate and Shiden-kai could be a match for the Yak-9 and La-7 models if they had pilots that were half good. Even the lowly Zero would be a problem if the Soviet pilots didn't know better than to mix it up with them in dogfights. All the same I'd expect soviet air power to gain air superiority fairly quickly and with fairly few losses. A lack of radar warning could be a problem when invasion day comes - I shudder to think what a kamikaze impacting a full landing craft would be like.

Hayate = Frank, Shiden-Kai = George.

[john964]

Since the Japanese are on the southern side of Sakahlin Island, if I were the Russians, that would be the first task. Clear the southern side of Sakahlin Island.

Next task is to invade Hokkaido, which is only 28.6 miles from the southern tip of Sakhalin Island. After that, buildup your air forces and defenses on Hokkaido, and hit Honshu across the strait. It's only 20.6 miles across from Hokkaido to Honshu.

Of course, the Japanese might have something to say about that, but that's the route. It keeps you within logistics range of Russian forces in Siberia and allows for the Russians to gain air superiority over the battlefield.
You have several problems with useing Sakahlin as a staging base.
1) Only 2 small harbors on the island capable of handling deep draft ships and these harbors usaly handeled coastal merchants of less than a 1000tn, also they averaged 3-4 ships a week. IIRC most of the shipping was removing the fish catch.
2) Very few sutable places for air fields with out a lot of heavy earth moving.
3) The island is very mountainious and rocky.

[bridav58]

The USN with all it's 1945 power had a rough time with the kamikaze's now just hoiw much of a surface fleet did the Soviets have in the Far East ? What type of AA FC did thier ships have? Were thier pilots trained in defending warships?

[old_pop2000]

You have several problems with useing Sakahlin as a staging base.
1) Only 2 small harbors on the island capable of handling deep draft ships and these harbors usaly handeled coastal merchants of less than a 1000tn, also they averaged 3-4 ships a week. IIRC most of the shipping was removing the fish catch.
2) Very few sutable places for air fields with out a lot of heavy earth moving.
3) The island is very mountainious and rocky.
The north-south running valley from Dolinsk to Yuznho-Sakhalinsk is wide enough and long enough leading to a decent area to stage supplies. Its about 250 miles to the coast of Siberia around Sovetskaya Gavan and Vanino. That area is flat and has some nice harbors.

The problems are manageable for the Russians.

[bridav58]

The north-south running valley from Dolinsk to Yuznho-Sakhalinsk is wide enough and long enough leading to a decent area to stage supplies. Its about 250 miles to the coast of Siberia around Sovetskaya Gavan and Vanino. That area is flat and has some nice harbors.

The problems are manageable for the Russians.
Manageable except that they never attempted anything like invading an isalnd like Hokkaido before and didn't have the fleet to do it with. I know one can say the Allies did a shore to shore operation in "Overlord" but one question comes up here is what was the weather like in those straights between Hokkaido & Shakhalin? What were the tidal conditions?

[old_pop2000]

Manageable except that they never attempted anything like invading an isalnd like Hokkaido before and didn't have the fleet to do it with. I know one can say the Allies did a shore to shore operation in "Overlord" but one question comes up here is what was the weather like in those straights between Hokkaido & Shakhalin? What were the tidal conditions?
Tides in the Sea of Okhotsk usually have large sea level oscillations and strong tidal currents. Tides of 13 meters are possible. The area between Sakhalin and Hokkaido is variable between 50 to 200 meters in depth.

Weather is cold and nasty, as would be expected. But the weather and region could be used to advantage as this is probably the last direction the Japanese would be expecting an attack to come from. It would be an easier attempt than trying to cross the Sea of Japan. The Russians and their equipment are designed for cold weather. Probably much more than the Japanese. Just some thoughts.

[djcyclone]

Is anybody considering the possibility of no sea action at all. It is well known that Russia did not have a naval force capable of this action, and it is also known that Japan did not have anything in the way of tanks.

Thus would it not make sense to use nothing but paratroopers? Russia already has Manchuria bottled up, and so why not simply build air bases their. Then modify your fighters to be able to protect long range bombers.

Russia has plenty of troops, and so this makes the most sense from my point of view. This also takes care of logistics side of the scenario. Simply keep sending bombers and dropping suplies into the area. Just about everyone knew how to launch partroopers by the time WW II was ending, so this makes expierience a non issue unlike the amphibiouse landing we have been talking about.

This also takes away alot of Japans strenghth. I have already mentioned that from the loss at Midway on, Japan knew they had basically lost, and they began dumping recources into fortifying Japan itself. This included suicide subs, heavily defended beaches, and more Kamikazies. With the idea I have mentioned above, all of these become usless. Kamikazies have a much harder time hitting a moving bomber, and there is less of a loss incured on the enemy. Armed beaches are out of the question, because you just do not drop you troops on the beaches. Suicide Subs are self explanitory.

[keschofield]

"Soviet naval strength in the Far East consisted of 12
major surface combatants and 78 submarines, as well as
amphibious craft and the Amur River Flotilla's riverine ves-
sels used to assist the ground forces in the Amur and Sungari
River crossing operations. Soviet naval vessels operating
out of bases from Vladivostok north played a critical role in
support of the assaults on Korea, Sakhalin and the Kurile
Islands. The Japanese navy was no factor in this campaign,
and did nothing to stop at least six Soviet amphibious land-
ings - three in North Korea, two in southern Sakhalin Island,
and in the Kurile Islands."

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/HAL.htm

Battlefield Operational Functions And The Soviet Campaign Against Japan In 1945
United States Marine Corps Command and Staff College
Quantico, Virginia
Master of Military Studies Thesis Paper
Andrew L. Hallman, Central Intelligence Agency

[keschofield]

Here's another reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm

[Ed Rotondaro]

The north-south running valley from Dolinsk to Yuznho-Sakhalinsk is wide enough and long enough leading to a decent area to stage supplies. Its about 250 miles to the coast of Siberia around Sovetskaya Gavan and Vanino. That area is flat and has some nice harbors.

The problems are manageable for the Russians.

Dennis:

You not just speculating here, you're wishful thinking. How do they handle kamikazes when the most powerful navy and airforce in the world was still struggling for answers?:rolleyes:

[Ed Rotondaro]

"Soviet naval strength in the Far East consisted of 12
major surface combatants and 78 submarines, as well as
amphibious craft and the Amur River Flotilla's riverine ves-
sels used to assist the ground forces in the Amur and Sungari
River crossing operations. Soviet naval vessels operating
out of bases from Vladivostok north played a critical role in
support of the assaults on Korea, Sakhalin and the Kurile
Islands. The Japanese navy was no factor in this campaign,
and did nothing to stop at least six Soviet amphibious land-
ings - three in North Korea, two in southern Sakhalin Island,
and in the Kurile Islands."

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/HAL.htm

Battlefield Operational Functions And The Soviet Campaign Against Japan In 1945
United States Marine Corps Command and Staff College
Quantico, Virginia
Master of Military Studies Thesis Paper
Andrew L. Hallman, Central Intelligence Agency

Kurt:

Interesting material, nice work. Thanks. Still what about the kamikazes? Guess the USN would have to soak them up?;)

[keschofield]

Here's a picture that gives interesting evidence to someone familiar with small arms. The rifles that these soldiers are laying down are NOT the first line Japanese rifle (Type 99 - 7.7mm). They are the older Type 38 (6.5 mm) used by recruits and second line troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Japanese_soldiers_pow.jpg

[keschofield]

Kurt:

Interesting material, nice work. Thanks. Still what about the kamikazes? Guess the USN would have to soak them up?;)

Ed and others,

I don't think I was clear. This is what actually happened. It is not speculation. The Sovs just walked into Manchuria, Sakhalin, and the Kuriles to minimal opposition. I have found no record regarding kamikaze activity. The IJN did not intervene at all.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

You not just speculating here, you're wishful thinking. How do they handle kamikazes when the most powerful navy and airforce in the world was still struggling for answers?:rolleyes:
Actually, Ed, I have never researched Russian operations in the north around Sakhalin Island. I just looked at a map, and Russian force structures available in Siberia. From the report that has been posted, I seemed to have hit the nail on the head. I would guess that the Japanese would have had to move fighters and attack aircraft to the northern bases. But the real threat was always the US carrier task forces and the B-29's attacking Japan. The Kamikaze's would have stayed in the southern islands to repel any US invasion and deal with the B-29's.

[keschofield]

"On 8 August 1945 the USSR declared war against Japan. This was in violation of the SovietJapanese Neutrality Pact, which was not set to expire until 13 April 1946. The primary theater of war (as with the RussoJapanese War of 1904-05) was northeast China. The overland invasion of southern Sakhalin and amphibious operations in the Kurils were of a more or less tactical nature, to the point that some doubts have even been raised as to their military necessity. After all, it was the mere fact that the USSR had entered the war againstJapan, coupled with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that forced the Japanese government to surrender to the Allies. Though the governments of all belligerent powers were informed of this decision on 14 August 1945, combat continued between the Soviet and Japanese forces. Clearly the Soviet government was concerned not so much with the military situation, as with improving its position in the post-war world.

The battle for southern Sakhalin ended only in late August. The 79th Infantry Division stormed border fortifications from 11-18 August, and amphibious assaults were mounted against ???? (Shakhtyorsk), Esutoro (Uglegorsk), and Maoka (Kholmsk) from the 16th to the 20th. On 25 August, a detachment was landed at the port of Otomari (Korsakov). That day Soviet forces entered the administrative capital of Karafuto, Toy-ohara (Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk).

Amphibious operations against the Kurils were begun four days after the announcement ofJapanese capitulation. There was a desperate battle for the island of Shumshu from 18-22 August. The remaining Kuril islands were occupied without resistance by the beginning of September 1945. The land, mineral resources, timber and waters around southern Sakhalin and the Kurils were declared the property of the Soviet Union by decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet on 2 February 1946. At that time the territory of southern Sakhalin and the Kurils was organized into the South Sakhalin Region. The new Region was incorporated into Khabarovsk Kray, and a separate Regional Administration for Southern Sakhalin Civic Affairs organized. Then on 2 January 1947 this new region was reorganized and incorporated into the newly-formed Sakhalin Region, a distinct administrative region independent of Khabarovsk Kray."

Source: http://www.sakhalin.ru/Engl/Region/book/ussr.htm

[keschofield]

Here's a site with some information on leftover battle wreckage on one of the Kuriles:

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/russia_shumshu.html

[old_pop2000]

Ed and others,

I don't think I was clear. This is what actually happened. It is not speculation. The Sovs just walked into Manchuria, Sakhalin, and the Kuriles to minimal opposition. I have found no record regarding kamikaze activity. The IJN did not intervene at all.
I would have guessed that this would be the Japanese response. They were stretched thin, most of their best forces were in China and could not be recalled. China was important to the Japanese economy along with Manchukuo and Korea, they could not relinquish those possessions. Much of their rice came from China, along with metals and coal.

[keschofield]

Here's a reference to kamikaze attacks against the Soviets:

"At least one kamikaze attack was made against land forces of the Soviet Red Army, on August 19, 1945, during Operation August Storm.[citation needed] Six planes from a Kwantung Army air unit made the attack, on the 46th Tank Brigade, 6th Guards Tank Army, near Tongliao, Manchuria. One truck was destroyed, and a Sherman tank was damaged.

Some sources report that a Soviet Navy cutter, KT-152, was sunk by a kamikaze attack on August 18 or August 19, 1945, near Shumushu, Kuriles archipelago.[citation needed]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

[old_pop2000]

From "Soviet Night Operations in WWII" Combat Studies Institute:


In another night attack characteristic of Soviet command initiative, this time by elements of the 16th Army on Sakhalin island, the 79th Rifle Division commander led an entire regiment across a swamp, wading through waist-high water and appearing in the rear of Japanese fortifications while a frontal attack occupied the defenders. Before this determined initiative on the night of 13-14 August, the Soviet offensive had been stalled for two days. Other night attacks, such as the fierce day-night action at Mutanchiang, where the Japanese suffered heavy losses, might be cited as evidence of the effective employment of night operations by Soviet forces in the short, decisive Manchurian campaign

I believe I mentioned that the problems of mountainous terrain were a manageable problem for the Russians. :rolleyes:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Here's a picture that gives interesting evidence to someone familiar with small arms. The rifles that these soldiers are laying down are NOT the first line Japanese rifle (Type 99 - 7.7mm). They are the older Type 38 (6.5 mm) used by recruits and second line troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Japanese_soldiers_pow.jpg


Kurt:

I would say they were pretty much scraping the barrel by that time. Still a 6.5mm bullet can kill ya. Ask the Marines that fought on Guadalcanal. How's Georgia?;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed and others,

I don't think I was clear. This is what actually happened. It is not speculation. The Sovs just walked into Manchuria, Sakhalin, and the Kuriles to minimal opposition. I have found no record regarding kamikaze activity. The IJN did not intervene at all.

Kurt:

I'm guessing their focus was defending against the US and not expecting the Russian attack. They did have a non-aggression treaty with Russia after their initial defeat.

[old_pop2000]

Kurt:

I would say they were pretty much scraping the barrel by that time. Still a 6.5mm bullet can kill ya. Ask the Marines that fought on Guadalcanal. How's Georgia?;)
The substitute type 99's of the late war period were more dangerous to the soldier than the enemy. They were not heat treated, made of poor quality steel and not coated. The rounds were uneven, giving poor accuracy. But, that was all the Japanese could muster, at this point.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Actually, Ed, I have never researched Russian operations in the north around Sakhalin Island. I just looked at a map, and Russian force structures available in Siberia. From the report that has been posted, I seemed to have hit the nail on the head. I would guess that the Japanese would have had to move fighters and attack aircraft to the northern bases. But the real threat was always the US carrier task forces and the B-29's attacking Japan. The Kamikaze's would have stayed in the southern islands to repel any US invasion and deal with the B-29's.

Dennis:

I think it would be easier for Japan to move forces to counter the Russians than for the Russians to mount a major amphib invasion. But since we speculating here, would Russia even attempt this until the US was committed? If they do, it lets Japan shift forces and start hammering them. If done in conjunction with a US invasion, then Russia has the advantage since the bulk of the Japanes forces are poised to counter Olympic.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Here's a site with some information on leftover battle wreckage on one of the Kuriles:

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/russia_shumshu.html

Kurt:

More good work. It's obvious you understand the Russian end of this quite well.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Here's a reference to kamikaze attacks against the Soviets:

"At least one kamikaze attack was made against land forces of the Soviet Red Army, on August 19, 1945, during Operation August Storm.[citation needed] Six planes from a Kwantung Army air unit made the attack, on the 46th Tank Brigade, 6th Guards Tank Army, near Tongliao, Manchuria. One truck was destroyed, and a Sherman tank was damaged.

Some sources report that a Soviet Navy cutter, KT-152, was sunk by a kamikaze attack on August 18 or August 19, 1945, near Shumushu, Kuriles archipelago.[citation needed]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

Kurt:

Makes you wonder how effective a kamikaze aircraft would be against ground targets? SHips are much larger and not moving as fast. Maybe against an airfield or fuel storage dump, but attacking individual tanks? Better off using infantry with explosives.

[keschofield]

The substitute type 99's of the late war period were more dangerous to the soldier than the enemy. They were not heat treated, made of poor quality steel and not coated. The rounds were uneven, giving poor accuracy. But, that was all the Japanese could muster, at this point.

I used to have 5 examples of Type 99's in my collection. One, from approx. 1938 if memory serves me correctly, was one of the finest pieces of craftmanship I've ever seen. The last one, from 1945 was a piece of junk. The metal pieces were all stamped instead of milled. Wherever possible, wood was used as a substitute for metal, eg. the butt plate. The barrel was an old "shot out" barrel that had a bore sleeve inserted. The other three were devolutionary steps in betwwen. The only one that I would have considered firing was the first one, but it was too pretty to fire. ;)

I once knew a man (father of an old girlfriend) who had been wounded on either Iwo or Okinawa (can't remember now) when a Japanese soldier fired at him. The action of the Japanese rifle exploded (killing the Japanese) and the bore sleeve blew out and speared my acquaintence in the shoulder; ugly and painful wound but thankfully not fatal.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I think it would be easier for Japan to move forces to counter the Russians than for the Russians to mount a major amphib invasion. But since we speculating here, would Russia even attempt this until the US was committed? If they do, it lets Japan shift forces and start hammering them. If done in conjunction with a US invasion, then Russia has the advantage since the bulk of the Japanes forces are poised to counter Olympic.
I wouldn't assume that. It would still be difficult for the Japanese to move the remaining soldiers from Okinawa, Kagoshima and the rest of the Southern areas of Japan, which might be more important, than Hokkaido. I suspect, the Russians would wait until the Japanese were committed in the south to defending that area, then attack Hokkaido. Keep in mind, most of the Japanese land based forces were in China, not Japan.

It would be interesting to know how many divisions of the Japanese army were actually in Japan, not China.

[john964]

Dennis:

I think it would be easier for Japan to move forces to counter the Russians than for the Russians to mount a major amphib invasion. But since we speculating here, would Russia even attempt this until the US was committed? If they do, it lets Japan shift forces and start hammering them. If done in conjunction with a US invasion, then Russia has the advantage since the bulk of the Japanes forces are poised to counter Olympic.

During late June to mid July TF38 sank or put OOA every RR ferry and regular passanger ferry that operated between Hokkiado and Honshu the ones that operated on the Inland Sea operated in only short dash trips at night and those were few and far between.

[old_pop2000]

At the end of the war, the Japanese had 2,115,000 men in arms, located in Japan. Since the triangular division of 1936 had 20000 men in it, with a reinforced division having over 24,000 men, the Japanese could have had 104 divisions available. This is theoretical, unknown is the quality of training. We know the weapons would be of inferior quality, due to lack of high grade steel additives like Chromium, molybdenum tungsten etc.

I don't see a deficiency in small arms or medium weapons, however there would be a definite lack of heavy and medium artillery due to lack of production. The Japanese could only run one shift in the factories due to manpower and material shortages. There would be a definite lack of communications equipment, for the same reasons. This might hamper command and control functions. Many of the expert or well trained communications personnel were stranded on islands or in China. The Japanese also had a shortage of automatic weapons for the average soldier, something the Russians were able to field readily. This would give the Russians a marked advantage in firepower, along with the prodigious quantities of artillery both light, medium and heavy. In tanks, the Russians are clearly superior.

We know that on 15 March, 1945 IJHQ ordered all remaining elite divisions including one armoured division from Manchuria back to the home islands. The Russians in Manchuria could field over 659,000 men including 49,000 vehicles along with 2400 tanks/SP's.

The Russians probably would overrun both Sakhalin Island and Hokkaido, but no attempt to invade Honshu. They can execute this plan easily and probably won't get much interference from the Japanese.

[asnrobert]

Kurt:

Makes you wonder how effective a kamikaze aircraft would be against ground targets? SHips are much larger and not moving as fast. Maybe against an airfield or fuel storage dump, but attacking individual tanks? Better off using infantry with explosives.

I read somewhere that the Japanese developed something called the "lunge mine" for their infantry to attack tanks with. Basically it was a bomb on a pole, and a Japanese soldier was supposed to run up to a tank and detonate the bomb against the side of the tank. Usually, it only resulted in the unfortunate soldier being impaled as the force of the explosion sent the pole backward.

[ksf1973]

This is true. Also known as a "pole mine" in some sources, but equally stupid in both places. Still, for an army that relied 100% on the "Seishin" of its infantry, and didn't care how many it lost, I suppose it made some sort of perverse sense.

[asnrobert]

Robert:

You can bet they would be pressuring the USN for all the support they could pry away from Operations Olympic and Coronet. Our "allies".:rolleyes:

I just finished reading "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" and there was a plan called "Project Hula" which would have involved the transfer of 250 frigates, patrol craft, minesweepers landing craft and other small vessels to the USSR to help them with amphib operations against Japan. The Soviet crews would have been trained in the Aleutians.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I just finished reading "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" and there was a plan called "Project Hula" which would have involved the transfer of 250 frigates, patrol craft, minesweepers landing craft and other small vessels to the USSR to help them with amphib operations against Japan. The Soviet crews would have been trained in the Aleutians.

Robert:

Interesting. I'll be starting that book in another couple of days. I need to finish The Day of Battle first and that should happen tonight.