Firearms, Personal Weapons

[old_pop2000]

I am recreating the Firearms discussion thread. Today, I went to the range and one of the gentleman had real Sharps .52 cal. Carbine, a 7mm Remington Rolling Block and a replica of a Henry Repeater. The Sharps sounded like a cannon and with the dense blue smoke, I could visualize fifty soldiers, in the Civil War, firing these and the Spenser. Lot's of smoke and noise. No wonder command and control was difficult.

Two other gentlemen had an M14 along with a SMLE chambered for .308. All in all, fun was had by all, except that it was very windy and about 90 degrees. Thanks heavens for the roof.

I can't wait to get my .40 cal S & W automatic and my match Browning .22 cal Auto.

[keschofield]

I am recreating the Firearms discussion thread. Today, I went to the range and one of the gentleman had real Sharps .52 cal. Carbine, a 7mm Remington Rolling Block and a replica of a Henry Repeater. The Sharps sounded like a cannon and with the dense blue smoke, I could visualize fifty soldiers, in the Civil War, firing these and the Spenser. Lot's of smoke and noise. No wonder command and control was difficult.

Two other gentlemen had an M14 along with a SMLE chambered for .308. All in all, fun was had by all, except that it was very windy and about 90 degrees. Thanks heavens for the roof.

I can't wait to get my .40 cal S & W automatic and my match Browning .22 cal Auto.

Dennis,

Glad you enjoyed your time on the range. Some of my most enjoyable times, and not a few new friends, came from going to the shooting range. I found the M14 and WWII versions of the SMLE to be very sweet shooters. The Sharps carbine will knock your shoulder off if you are not careful with the powder load in the cartridges (and you forget to hold that sucker tight into your shoulder)!

I spent most of my time on the range running ammo through my M-1 Carbine, although I did fire my '98 Krag rifle a few times. On the pistol range, I used to love shooting my little 6.5mm Mauser pistol.

Hopefully your range has strict rules. A few "cowboys" can ruin things real fast. Our range got closed down because of the antics of a couple of yo-yo's with a Mossberg "Street Sweeper" and exploding targets.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis,

Glad you enjoyed your time on the range. Some of my most enjoyable times, and not a few new friends, came from going to the shooting range. I found the M14 and WWII versions of the SMLE to be very sweet shooters. The Sharps carbine will knock your shoulder off if you are not careful with the powder load in the cartridges (and you forget to hold that sucker tight into your shoulder)!

I spent most of my time on the range running ammo through my M-1 Carbine, although I did fire my '98 Krag rifle a few times. On the pistol range, I used to love shooting my little 6.5mm Mauser pistol.

Hopefully your range has strict rules. A few "cowboys" can ruin things real fast. Our range got closed down because of the antics of a couple of yo-yo's with a Mossberg "Street Sweeper" and exploding targets.
Hi:
I agree about some of the "cowboys". My son is a range officer. The club that runs it, which I am a member of, is very strict in the rule application. We called for a cease fire, then everyone was told to unload, and open bolts and lay down the weapons and step behind the red lines. Once that was accomplished, my son went up and down the line checking all weapons. Then, everyone was told the range was cold, at that point they could pickup brass. One person bolted ahead of time, then the person next to him, headed down to the targets, before the range officers cleared the range. Boy, did that guy get a talking to. He understood, and explained the issue. The range officers want eveyone to head to the targets in a group, to ensure everyone comes back together for safety. My son and his fellow range officers are very strict. Trust me. They also monitor what type of guns and ammo are being use.

I would love to shoot the 98 Krag. In fact, I have more of a fascination for the historical weapons like the Sharps, Spenser, Krag, Mauser etc. I have fired the flintlock weapons that the blackpowder guys bring. I am also going to attend one of the cowboy meets where they simulate fast draws and cowboy shooting.

I enjoy this discussion. I am not as knowledgeable about the individual weapons but I understand exterior and interior ballistics, etc. I am just a weekend shooter, and use it to bond and enjoy time with my son.

[keschofield]

Hi:
I agree about some of the "cowboys". My son is a range officer. The club that runs it, which I am a member of, is very strict in the rule application. We called for a cease fire, then everyone was told to unload, and open bolts and lay down the weapons and step behind the red lines. Once that was accomplished, my son went up and down the line checking all weapons. Then, everyone was told the range was cold, at that point they could pickup brass. One person bolted ahead of time, then the person next to him, headed down to the targets, before the range officers cleared the range. Boy, did that guy get a talking to. He understood, and explained the issue. The range officers want eveyone to head to the targets in a group, to ensure everyone comes back together for safety. My son and his fellow range officers are very strict. Trust me. They also monitor what type of guns and ammo are being use.

I would love to shoot the 98 Krag. In fact, I have more of a fascination for the historical weapons like the Sharps, Spenser, Krag, Mauser etc. I have fired the flintlock weapons that the blackpowder guys bring. I am also going to attend one of the cowboy meets where they simulate fast draws and cowboy shooting.

I enjoy this discussion. I am not as knowledgeable about the individual weapons but I understand exterior and interior ballistics, etc. I am just a weekend shooter, and use it to bond and enjoy time with my son.


Dennis,

Sounds like your range is one of the good ones. Having serious range officers will make sure that your range is available for fun and is safe for years to come. Enjoy the time with your son. My sons are now grown and moved away (1 in NY state, the other in Texas) so I miss them.

Shooting the old rifles can be a lot of fun. As you will recall from previous posts, my collection once included 110 rifles. Those that were safe to fire I took to the range. Some were fun, some were scary.

As I'm sure you know, there is extra safety that must be used when firing old rifles (or muskets, or pistols for that matter). Never, ever fire it yourself immediately upon buying it. Take it to a gunsmith for a thorough examination and a bench test. It costs some money but your face and hands (and sometimes your life) are worth any costs. Remember many of the old guns were manufactured prior to the use of smokeless powder and the newer more potent powders. My rule is always, IF THERE'S ANY DOUBT .... DON'T FIRE IT.

Having said that, developing a feel for how various historical weapons perform gives the student a whole new dimension to his study of a period. To take a somewhat light hearted example ... Many of us like to question the bravery of the French, but I've fired the Mannlicher-Berthier "Camel" Carbine. Anybody that has the guts to fire that nasty little s.o.b. and does so without dislocating their shoulder is a better man than me! :eek: That mean little sucker is only about 18" to 24" inches long, weighs significantly less than 10 pounds and fires French 8mm ammunition with a huge powder load. "Kicks like a mule" doesn't do justice to this thing. I fired one once and I'll never do it again.:D

My personal favorite out of my collection was the Springfield 03A3. The 03A3 was the pinnacle, IMHO, of bolt action technological development. Semi-autos were already taking over when the 03A3 was new. If the rifle is in good condition and the ammunition is properly manufactured, any shooter can shoot well with the 03A3. Or to put it another way, if you can't score well with the 03A3, you shouldn't be shooting!

The only rifles that I would never fire, gunsmith tested or not, were the straight pulls; the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin, the Austrian Steyer, the US Navy Lee, and the Canadian Ross (there may have been others, but I can't think of them now). I'm just too cautious. :o But then remember that I was a collector first and a shooter second so my opinions are skewed accordingly. For example, if I saw someone shooting an original Henry rifle in mint condition, I might get physically ill.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis,

Sounds like your range is one of the good ones. Having serious range officers will make sure that your range is available for fun and is safe for years to come. Enjoy the time with your son. My sons are now grown and moved away (1 in NY state, the other in Texas) so I miss them.

Shooting the old rifles can be a lot of fun. As you will recall from previous posts, my collection once included 110 rifles. Those that were safe to fire I took to the range. Some were fun, some were scary.

As I'm sure you know, there is extra safety that must be used when firing old rifles (or muskets, or pistols for that matter). Never, ever fire it yourself immediately upon buying it. Take it to a gunsmith for a thorough examination and a bench test. It costs some money but your face and hands (and sometimes your life) are worth any costs. Remember many of the old guns were manufactured prior to the use of smokeless powder and the newer more potent powders. My rule is always, IF THERE'S ANY DOUBT .... DON'T FIRE IT.

Having said that, developing a feel for how various historical weapons perform gives the student a whole new dimension to his study of a period. To take a somewhat light hearted example ... Many of us like to question the bravery of the French, but I've fired the Mannlicher-Berthier "Camel" Carbine. Anybody that has the guts to fire that nasty little s.o.b. and does so without dislocating their shoulder is a better man than me! :eek: That mean little sucker is only about 18" to 24" inches long, weighs significantly less than 10 pounds and fires French 8mm ammunition with a huge powder load. "Kicks like a mule" doesn't do justice to this thing. I fired one once and I'll never do it again.:D

My personal favorite out of my collection was the Springfield 03A3. The 03A3 was the pinnacle, IMHO, of bolt action technological development. Semi-autos were already taking over when the 03A3 was new. If the rifle is in good condition and the ammunition is properly manufactured, any shooter can shoot well with the 03A3. Or to put it another way, if you can't score well with the 03A3, you shouldn't be shooting!

The only rifles that I would never fire, gunsmith tested or not, were the straight pulls; the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin, the Austrian Steyer, the US Navy Lee, and the Canadian Ross (there may have been others, but I can't think of them now). I'm just too cautious. :o But then remember that I was a collector first and a shooter second so my opinions are skewed accordingly. For example, if I saw someone shooting an original Henry rifle in mint condition, I might get physically ill.

One of the first items after our purchase, is to bring the gun to our gunsmith. He registers for us and we get the guns from him. He checks them and tests them. So, I agree with you, that is our first step.

My dad had a 1917 Enfield, .30-06 hunting rifle with a special machine gun barrel on it. When I was 14, he allowed me to shoot it, but I had to lean on the old car. Thing kick like a mule, at least for a 14 year old kid it seemed that way. Highly accurate and deadly. Of course, it was accurate when he shot it, but he was a trained aerial gunner in the Navy. That most likely gave him an advantage.

On our recent voyage up the Columbia, we visited the Columbia River Gorge Nature Center. I witnessed a demo of a replica long rifle carried by Lewis and Clark. It was given to a group of high school kids visiting. I think this is top notch. Helps the kids really get a feel for what it was like to shoot and hunt during those time periods. Real history, IMHO>

[keschofield]

One of the first items after our purchase, is to bring the gun to our gunsmith. He registers for us and we get the guns from him. He checks them and tests them. So, I agree with you, that is our first step.

My dad had a 1917 Enfield, .30-06 hunting rifle with a special machine gun barrel on it. When I was 14, he allowed me to shoot it, but I had to lean on the old car. Thing kick like a mule, at least for a 14 year old kid it seemed that way. Highly accurate and deadly. Of course, it was accurate when he shot it, but he was a trained aerial gunner in the Navy. That most likely gave him an advantage.

On our recent voyage up the Columbia, we visited the Columbia River Gorge Nature Center. I witnessed a demo of a replica long rifle carried by Lewis and Clark. It was given to a group of high school kids visiting. I think this is top notch. Helps the kids really get a feel for what it was like to shoot and hunt during those time periods. Real history, IMHO>


I am absolutely thrilled with the increase in "living history" activities over the last several years. Best thing to come along for history in a long time.

Gotta go for now. Enjoyed talking guns with you. I'm always available to talk guns.

Kurt

[old_pop2000]

I am absolutely thrilled with the increase in "living history" activities over the last several years. Best thing to come along for history in a long time.

Gotta go for now. Enjoyed talking guns with you. I'm always available to talk guns.

Kurt
I've enjoyed it also. I may ask you for advice on guns and procedures, so stay close.

Have a good day

[Ed Rotondaro]

I've enjoyed it also. I may ask you for advice on guns and procedures, so stay close.

Have a good day

Kurt and Dennis:

You guys get to have too much fun! One of these days I'm coming out or down there and you will allow to shoot the fun guns. I'll pay for the ammo and beer. Be afraid!:eek:

[djcyclone]

Kurt and Dennis:

You guys get to have too much fun! One of these days I'm coming out or down there and you will allow to shoot the fun guns. I'll pay for the ammo and beer. Be afraid!:eek:



:confused:Not to impede on your friendly conversation here, but the last time I checked Guns, Ammo, and free bear never mixed well in a friendly manner:eek:. Make sure too be careful.

[old_pop2000]

:confused:Not to impede on your friendly conversation here, but the last time I checked Guns, Ammo, and free bear never mixed well in a friendly manner:eek:. Make sure too be careful.
I agree, but what Ed was saying was just in jest, he is aware that guns and alcohol don't mix. Alcohol is never allowed at the Rod & Gun Club firing Range. No exceptions.

[Kyle Holgate]

:confused:Not to impede on your friendly conversation here, but the last time I checked Guns, Ammo, and free bear never mixed well in a friendly manner:eek:. Make sure too be careful.

I'm sure he did NOT mean beer while shooting, give Ed a bit of credit! :p

[djcyclone]

I was only poking a little fun. I am sure he was not seriouse about the beer part. :rolleyes:

[old_pop2000]

I was only poking a little fun. I am sure he was not seriouse about the beer part. :rolleyes:
Well, if he had said wine, then I know he was serious.

[djcyclone]

Speaking of guns; have you guys ever been fortunate enough to see Wyatt Earp's gun?

When I drove a Semi over the road, I was fortunate enough to constantly run through Reno Nevada. There is a Truck Stop that I slept at more than a couple of times. Anyway they have a huge collection of guns. Among them are Wyatt Earp's famous Pistol.

God only knows how much the Owner of the Truck Stop payed to purchase that gun, but they have it on display behind a bullet proof glass covering. I believe they have quite a few guns from the Civil War that belonged to famous Generals and such. If I remember right, they have the Knife of James Bewey, or however you spell his name. They have interesting little bio's next to each display that tells the history of the weapon, and who owned it as well as information of the owner.

The Wyatt Earp gun has an original picture of Earp, and a small bio written by a friend of Wyatt. He says that in all of the Gun Fights the Earp participated in, he was never once shot. He also says that of all the people that he ever met, Wyatt was the only person who was never afraid of anything.

I always made an appointment to stop at that Truck Stop when anywhere near Reno, since they have a great Resturaunt, Plenty of Parking, and it is always interesting to read about some of those weapons.

[Ed Rotondaro]

:confused:Not to impede on your friendly conversation here, but the last time I checked Guns, Ammo, and free bear never mixed well in a friendly manner:eek:. Make sure too be careful.


DJ:

As Dennis says, no booze when cracking rounds off. Afterwards we can all tell lies over a few cold ones sailor.:rolleyes: I might even buy you a round LOL!

[old_pop2000]

Well, I just got my Browning .22 Cal Buckmark with red dot scope mounted. Haven't shot it, but my son sighted it in today. Looking forward to shooting it next week.

On the fifth, I get to pick up my S & W Sigma .40 cal. automatic. That is a great weapon, that goes in my gun safe next to my desk.

I am also learning to draw and fire but I have to get a holster for the Sigma. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, so any suggestions would be welcomed. (Mike, are you listening!!);):D

I am ready.

[old_pop2000]

For Father's day, my son gave me a nice holster for my S & W .40 cal Auto. He has been teaching me what he learned about drawing a weapon from a holster and firing.... and still hitting the target.

He also bought me a quick loader for magazines. Great device, saves the fingers.

Hey Mike
Any pointers, besides don't shoot yourself in the foot. I got that one down pat. ;):D:D

[djcyclone]

Hay does anyone know if you have to get shotguns registered. I have a 20 guage choke single barrel shotgun made by The Bridge Gun Company. My Grandfather gave it to me, and his Father was the one who bought it. It was made around the 30's so it was never registered.

My Grandfather told me two things when he gave it to me. He said what ever you do never sell it, and do not shoot it until you get it looked at by a gunsmith. Even though it is as old as it is, I found that it is not worth anything, so not selling it is no problem. I would not have sold it even if it was worth anything. He told me not to shoot it, because it might exlpode in my face. He says that it has not been shot for a number of years.

Eventually I will get it fixed up with a scope, and I will get some deer slugs. I will then go deer hunting with it, but I have to go through that gay hunting course first. I was born after the year that they say makes people exempt from taking the course.

[old_pop2000]

Hay does anyone know if you have to get shotguns registered. I have a 20 guage choke single barrel shotgun made by The Bridge Gun Company. My Grandfather gave it to me, and his Father was the one who bought it. It was made around the 30's so it was never registered.

My Grandfather told me two things when he gave it to me. He said what ever you do never sell it, and do not shoot it until you get it looked at by a gunsmith. Even though it is as old as it is, I found that it is not worth anything, so not selling it is no problem. I would not have sold it even if it was worth anything. He told me not to shoot it, because it might exlpode in my face. He says that it has not been shot for a number of years.

Eventually I will get it fixed up with a scope, and I will get some deer slugs. I will then go deer hunting with it, but I have to go through that gay hunting course first. I was born after the year that they say makes people exempt from taking the course.

I think it depends on your state. I would check with a certified gun dealer and ask him or the police. I don't really know.

[keschofield]

Dennis is right, it depends on the state (and sometimes the county and/or city) where the shotgun resides.

Recommend you do the following:
1) Check with the local police department regarding the applicable gun laws. A gun store is an ok 2nd choice, but the police are the best in this case.

2) Once number 1 is complete and all laws satisfied, take it to a reputable, professional gunsmith.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I am recreating the Firearms discussion thread. Today, I went to the range and one of the gentleman had real Sharps .52 cal. Carbine, a 7mm Remington Rolling Block and a replica of a Henry Repeater. The Sharps sounded like a cannon and with the dense blue smoke, I could visualize fifty soldiers, in the Civil War, firing these and the Spenser. Lot's of smoke and noise. No wonder command and control was difficult.

Two other gentlemen had an M14 along with a SMLE chambered for .308. All in all, fun was had by all, except that it was very windy and about 90 degrees. Thanks heavens for the roof.

I can't wait to get my .40 cal S & W automatic and my match Browning .22 cal Auto.

Dennis:

Does the Sharps use black powder cartridges? What was the 7mm like recoil wise?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hay does anyone know if you have to get shotguns registered. I have a 20 guage choke single barrel shotgun made by The Bridge Gun Company. My Grandfather gave it to me, and his Father was the one who bought it. It was made around the 30's so it was never registered.

My Grandfather told me two things when he gave it to me. He said what ever you do never sell it, and do not shoot it until you get it looked at by a gunsmith. Even though it is as old as it is, I found that it is not worth anything, so not selling it is no problem. I would not have sold it even if it was worth anything. He told me not to shoot it, because it might exlpode in my face. He says that it has not been shot for a number of years.

Eventually I will get it fixed up with a scope, and I will get some deer slugs. I will then go deer hunting with it, but I have to go through that gay hunting course first. I was born after the year that they say makes people exempt from taking the course.

DJ:

Is 20 gauge big enough for dear hunting? Around here, hunters generally use 12 gauge with slugs.

[djcyclone]

DJ:

Is 20 gauge big enough for dear hunting? Around here, hunters generally use 12 gauge with slugs.



Everyone that I have asked has said that the 20 guage is the smallest shotgun that can load a deer slug. I do not know that much about weapons, so I guess I will have to go to a gun store and see if I can buy amunition. If not, then I will know, but that will not be for a long time.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

Does the Sharps use black powder cartridges? What was the 7mm like recoil wise?

The Sharps certainly does use black powder. When the gentleman fired the weapon at the range, there was a big cloud of black smoke that gushed forth. It was a .45-70 cartridge.

I never shot either weapon, although my son kept telling me to ask him. My son was the range officer that day, probably should have. However, in watching him shoot, it was a sudden, sharp recoil that died away quickly, that's my impression. It wasn't like a .300 magnum or a 30-06 in the Garand. The .300 Weatherby Magnum has a good long jolt to it.

Just my impressions, maybe the others have a better opinion I liked the SKS, very little rise when you fire it, not much kick at all. My son bought he and I each one to shoot.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The Sharps certainly does use black powder. When the gentleman fired the weapon at the range, there was a big cloud of black smoke that gushed forth. It was a .45-70 cartridge.

I never shot either weapon, although my son kept telling me to ask him. My son was the range officer that day, probably should have. However, in watching him shoot, it was a sudden, sharp recoil that died away quickly, that's my impression. It wasn't like a .300 magnum or a 30-06 in the Garand. The .300 Weatherby Magnum has a good long jolt to it.

Just my impressions, maybe the others have a better opinion I liked the SKS, very little rise when you fire it, not much kick at all. My son bought he and I each one to shoot.

Dennis:

Sounds like a good time. With the SKS, each ammo is plentiful and inexpensive. Bet the Sharps ammo has to be handloaded.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

Sounds like a good time. With the SKS, each ammo is plentiful and inexpensive. Bet the Sharps ammo has to be handloaded.

SKS ammo is fairly plentiful, not entirely certain about cost. Sharps can be purchased but cheaper to reload by hand. Most of the guys that own them, are reloaders.

[Ed Rotondaro]

To all my forum friends who own firearms and are responsible:

I join you in thanking the Supreme Court for up holding your rights to own firearms. End of politically charged topic.

[old_pop2000]

To all my forum friends who own firearms and are responsible:

I join you in thanking the Supreme Court for up holding your rights to own firearms. End of politically charged topic.

I agree but It would have been nice to have a 7-2 not a 5-4 decision.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I agree but It would have been nice to have a 7-2 not a 5-4 decision.

Dennis:

I agree, the decision should not have been that close.

[keschofield]

I have read both the majority opinion and the dissenting opinions. I believe the majority opinion used some spurious historical reasoning in making its point.

I agree with the minority, that the 2nd Amendment refers the need to arm individuals in "well regulated" state militias (now the National Guard) NOT every citizen!

However, the Supreme Court has spoken so now the debate is ended. That is until the court reverses itself eventually on this issue just like it did eventually reverse the disreputable Dred Scott decision.

Wild West days here we come.:(

[keschofield]

Here's a small example of what I mean:

"Scalia noted that the handgun is Americans' preferred weapon of self-defense in part because 'it can be pointed at a burglar with one hand while the other hand dials the police.'"

Spoken like a person who has nevered handled a handgun properly but HAS watched too much television!

If this weren't so sad, it would be funny.

[Scott Chisholm]

Kurt,

The Second Ammendment has always had me torn up because the (political) extremists, well, take it to the extreme.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I agree with your take on it: the whole basis of the Second Ammendment was to ensure everyone had a weapon to bring to the party when the Militia was called up, not to form the basis of bad music videos....

I personally believe handguns should be banned for non-law enforcement and -military use. I'm okay with non-military long arms because that's what the Founding Fathers had in mind. One did not hunt deer with a flintlock pistol....

The thing that disturbs me is not the decision, but the margin. It should have been a slam-dunk 9-0 upholding of DC's law.

Upon reflection, the thing that REALLY disturbs me is that I'm agreeing with the Libs here....:eek:

[old_pop2000]

1. The DC versus Heller decision had nothing to do with carrying guns outside the home, or current gun laws or registration laws. It was strictly reviewing the decision based on the concept of whether the DC gun law was constitutional in banning guns in the home for personal protection.

2. In US vs Miller in 1939, the Supreme Court upheld the individuals right to keep and bear arms. Whether or not it was for a "well regulated militia" or not. It was considered a basic right.

3. This is what the decision stated: "“the District’s claim runs afoul of Miller’s discussion of ‘Arms.’ The Miller Court concluded . . . . that militiamen were expected to bring their private arms with them when called up for service. Those weapons would be ‘of the kind in common use at the time.’ There can be no question that most handguns (those in common use) fit that description then and now.”

4. The right to bear arms was a right long before the constitution codified it. The constitutional amendment did not create the right, it simply affirmed it or codified it. The amendment states the right keep and bear arms.... Note the word keep which the court has defined specifically as the ability to own or have.


Now, before the MIB get us, maybe we should leave all this legal mumbo jumbo to the experts, which I am not..... but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once. :p:p

[old_pop2000]

Do I believe that everyone should have a gun? Not based on the idiots who drive in my state with one hand and another on the cell phone. They shouldn't have cell phones or drivers licenses, let alone guns.

I've always been a strong supporter of detailed intelligence and reasoning tests for people who want drivers licenses and guns. You don't pass, you don't get either. Might simplify the issue.:D

[Spook046]

Do I believe that everyone should have a gun? Not based on the idiots who drive in my state with one hand and another on the cell phone. They shouldn't have cell phones or drivers licenses, let alone guns.

I've always been a strong supporter of detailed intelligence and reasoning tests for people who want drivers licenses and guns. You don't pass, you don't get either. Might simplify the issue.:D

A fair point. I've held the personal view for years that a gun safety course should be a prerequesite for gun ownership, regardless if that wouldn't pass muster with 2nd Amendment review or other tripwires in practical application.

My father required for me and my other brothers that before even owning a .22-caliber firearm, we had to take a hunter safety course that ran for about two weeks (night course). That was decades ago, but I still remember that even then the instructors were very diligent about reminding on all the various ways one could hurt or kill themselves when screwing around with a firearm.

[Spook046]

BTW, yes, I am one such handgun owner (.40-cal Glock). It's questionable what personal value I have in owning it, given that I now keep it locked away in a safe while I have a toddler running around in the house. In the event of a sudden break-in by an intruder, it'd take too long for me to get to the safe, unlock it, and load the gun.

Regardless........

While I favor the registration of handguns, background checks, and some other reasonable "common-sense" gun control measures including gun-safety training, I still would much rather it to be my own personal decision, than for an arbitrary local/state/federal ordinance, to determine whether I can keep a handgun or other firearm within my own home.

[djcyclone]

I was just discussing politics at my work the other day, and a person made a vary chilling comment that bothers me. They said that they woud expect this country to have a revolution within the next 50 years. They made some vary good points, and it bothers me even now to think of such a thing. The sad truth is that this country becomes more and more communist every day.

Now before Chris yells at me, I will stop on the whole communist thing, but consider this. If the Second Ammendment goes, then other Ammendments will be on the wire as well. Freedom of Speach will be under fire, Freedom of the Press will go next, and last but not least Freedom of Religion which has been under the gun for the last 30 years or more. If one goes then the others are just as vulnerable.

That is the main reason that I support the Second Ammendment. As Larry the Cable guy puts it "Guns do not kill people, husbands that come home early kill people.":D

Another reason that I support the right to own guns, is that making guns illiegal will not take guns out of the hands of criminals. It will only place a handicap on the person who chooses to live a normal life. Criminals will still be able to get guns via the Black Market and so you are only penalizing the good guy.

I will end my political rant before I get into trouble, so there you have it.

[Warship NWS]

Guys.. lets wrap this up, before it goes somewhere out of bounds. ;)

Thanks.

[Ed Rotondaro]

A fair point. I've held the personal view for years that a gun safety course should be a prerequesite for gun ownership, regardless if that wouldn't pass muster with 2nd Amendment review or other tripwires in practical application.

My father required for me and my other brothers that before even owning a .22-caliber firearm, we had to take a hunter safety course that ran for about two weeks (night course). That was decades ago, but I still remember that even then the instructors were very diligent about reminding on all the various ways one could hurt or kill themselves when screwing around with a firearm.

Spook:

As they say, gun control begins between the ears.

[Campy]

Nobody seems to remember the constitution was framed and approved by people who belonged to organizations such as the Sons of Liberty, Green Mount Boys, and Minutemen. All illegal militias under British rule. I think the second amendment was meant among other things, as a hedge against our own government, should it get out of hand. Just my thought.

Frank

[Ed Rotondaro]

BTW, yes, I am one such handgun owner (.40-cal Glock). It's questionable what personal value I have in owning it, given that I now keep it locked away in a safe while I have a toddler running around in the house. In the event of a sudden break-in by an intruder, it'd take too long for me to get to the safe, unlock it, and load the gun.

Regardless........

While I favor the registration of handguns, background checks, and some other reasonable "common-sense" gun control measures including gun-safety training, I still would much rather it to be my own personal decision, than for an arbitrary local/state/federal ordinance, to determine whether I can keep a handgun or other firearm within my own home.

Spook:

That's one of the reasons that my wife won't allow guns in our home. But I find that responsible gun owners understand this stuff. It's the idiots that get hands on weapons that I'm afraid of.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Guys.. lets wrap this up, before it goes somewhere out of bounds. ;)

Thanks.

Chris:

I apologize, this is my fault for starting this thread. I knew it was politically charged and tried to emphasis that early on. My bad.:(

[keschofield]

Kurt,

The Second Ammendment has always had me torn up because the (political) extremists, well, take it to the extreme.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I agree with your take on it: the whole basis of the Second Ammendment was to ensure everyone had a weapon to bring to the party when the Militia was called up, not to form the basis of bad music videos....

I personally believe handguns should be banned for non-law enforcement and -military use. I'm okay with non-military long arms because that's what the Founding Fathers had in mind. One did not hunt deer with a flintlock pistol....

The thing that disturbs me is not the decision, but the margin. It should have been a slam-dunk 9-0 upholding of DC's law.

Upon reflection, the thing that REALLY disturbs me is that I'm agreeing with the Libs here....:eek:

Scott,

Thanks for the reply. I am pleasantly surprised that you concur with my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions ;)).

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about the margin. I think politics played a huge hand in this.

How's retirement treating you?

Kurt

[keschofield]

To the team,

Sorry for perpetuationg the political nature of this discussion. I had second thoughts before posting my original post. I should have listened to them.

This is a subject with which I've been on both sides and have a lifetime of experience. A wise woman (my mother) once told me "... never discuss religion or politics. Nothing good ever comes of it. Form your opinions carefully and quietly, then keep them to yourself. If you are asked about them be circumspect in how you answer."

[Ed Rotondaro]

To the team,

Sorry for perpetuationg the political nature of this discussion. I had second thoughts before posting my original post. I should have listened to them.

This is a subject with which I've been on both sides and have a lifetime of experience. A wise woman (my mother) once told me "... never discuss religion or politics. Nothing good ever comes of it. Form your opinions carefully and quietly, then keep them to yourself. If you are asked about them be circumspect in how you answer."


Kurt:

Words to live by old friend. How's Georgia, nice and hot I'll bet?

[keschofield]

Kurt:

Words to live by old friend. How's Georgia, nice and hot I'll bet?


Feels like August right now. This is the time of year that makes me miss old NY the most. Gotta go now. Chris doesn't like chatter in the forums.

[Warship NWS]

Feels like August right now. This is the time of year that makes me miss old NY the most. Gotta go now. Chris doesn't like chatter in the forums.

I am not as strict about that policy in the "off-topic" sections of the forums. ;)

[Mike Malanaphy]

BTW, yes, I am one such handgun owner (.40-cal Glock). It's questionable what personal value I have in owning it, given that I now keep it locked away in a safe while I have a toddler running around in the house. In the event of a sudden break-in by an intruder, it'd take too long for me to get to the safe, unlock it, and load the gun.

Regardless........

While I favor the registration of handguns, background checks, and some other reasonable "common-sense" gun control measures including gun-safety training, I still would much rather it to be my own personal decision, than for an arbitrary local/state/federal ordinance, to determine whether I can keep a handgun or other firearm within my own home.

Hi Spook,

I would agree, having a gun around the house is quite a responsibily that many often treat carelessly. It needs to be secure and have the serial numbers marked down somewhere in case of theft. Wouldn't hurt to talk to your insurance agent about coverage in case you use it as you will be sued civilly (is that an oxymoron?) if you have any assests at all and you will need an attorney for the police. Post shooting is as important as the decision to shoot. I would never dissuade anyone from defending themselves or others, just know the rules and conseqences. Remember Bernhard Goetz? In law enforcement and the military, I saw a lot of tragedy caused by foolish weapons handling.

A useful option is to have a handgun with a magazine safety, in other words, one that will function only with a magazine in it. That way you can keep the magazine on you or seperate and know the gun is inoperative, but can be made operative quickly. Good peace of mind if it's stolen also. I had two hand guns taken from me in Colorado Springs back in the 70s. They were recovered the next day, but I worried all night about some poor clerk in a 7-11 being threatened with one.

This is a very personal decision often shaped by our experiences. It's like wearing a seatbelt, the statistics on any given day needing it are slight, but I always wear it. There was a time when my wife wanted to go down to the video store and I went to get my gun. She asked me if I thought I was going to need it. When I said no, I left it behind. A the video store in line with me was a Charles Manson look a like with an 8" belt knife. Now I don't leave home without it except to fly. Never needed it, but always have it. I remember Robert Redford telling Brad Pitt in "The Company", "If it's you or them...send flowers."

We carry Glocks on duty, but off duty my Colt Government model .45 is my winter gun and I have an H and K P7 9mm for summer. :)

[old_pop2000]

Hi Spook,

I would agree, having a gun around the house is quite a responsibily that many often treat carelessly. It needs to be secure and have the serial numbers marked down somewhere in case of theft. Wouldn't hurt to talk to your insurance agent about coverage in case you use it as you will be sued civilly (is that an oxymoron?) if you have any assests at all and you will need an attorney for the police. Post shooting is as important as the decision to shoot. I would never dissuade anyone from defending themselves or others, just know the rules and conseqences. Remember Bernhard Goetz? In law enforcement and the military, I saw a lot of tragedy caused by foolish weapons handling.

A useful option is to have a handgun with a magazine safety, in other words, one that will function only with a magazine in it. That way you can keep the magazine on you or seperate and know the gun is inoperative, but can be made operative quickly. Good peace of mind if it's stolen also. I had two hand guns taken from me in Colorado Springs back in the 70s. They were recovered the next day, but I worried all night about some poor clerk in a 7-11 being threatened with one.

This is a very personal decision often shaped by our experiences. It's like wearing a seatbelt, the statistics on any given day needing it are slight, but I always wear it. There was a time when my wife wanted to go down to the video store and I went to get my gun. She asked me if I thought I was going to need it. When I said no, I left it behind. A the video store in line with me was a Charles Manson look a like with an 8" belt knife. Now I don't leave home without it except to fly. Never needed it, but always have it. I remember Robert Redford telling Brad Pitt in "The Company", "If it's you or them...send flowers."

We carry Glocks on duty, but off duty my Colt Government model .45 is my winter gun and I have an H and K P7 9mm for summer. :)

Hey Mike:
Thanks for the good advice, if you have other suggestions, don't be shy. You are the expert. The guns in my family are all locked up in gun safes, one in each room, one large heavy steel anchored to the floor in the garage. All documentation is locked up and clearly available. I have two: A .40 cal S & W Sigma and a 9mm Walter P-38. The P-38 is in the heavy safe, due to its age. But the .40 cal is in my gun safe behind my desk.

It is my hope that I never have to use it, however, if the need should present itself, I will shoot under the correct circumstances. And despite 61 years, I will not miss. But, with iron bars on all windows and doors along with extensive movement sensitive lighting outside, I hope that will be the deterent.

[djcyclone]

Before I start,(I am not trying to go political)

With that said here goes. My personal expierience is something of the exact opposite of most people. My Grandfather kept his Shot Gun in his closet during my entire childhood. It was only in a case and everyone knew where it was. We did not know where the amunition was, but we would randomly get it out and look at it. However as kids, my cousin and I never even thought about finding the amunition and trying to shoot it. Even when we stumbled apon the amunition at one point, we did not go get the gun and try anything.

We knew that we would be in big trouble if we shot that thing since we where in town. I cannot even imagine what my Grandfather would have done if something like that had happened. I probably would not be able to walk even today since he used a belt.

The point is if you keep a gun in your house then let your family know about it. Do not keep it a secret, because kids do get curiouse when your not there and they do go looking around. It is the responsability of the owners to teach the kids about the gun and to let them know that it is not a toy. I now own that same shot gun and I keep it in the same case in my closet. If I ever needed it, well I do not have any ammunition for it right now, but I would use it as a club, and besides I am better with a knife then a gun, especially in the tight quarters of my apartment.:D

My personal opinion is that Government has no right to tell us to protect ourselves. Accidents will happen, but the responsability still falls on the individual person. I will own a pistol, and I will not keep it in a lock box. When I have children, I will keep it in a high place, and when they are tall enough to even possibly look where it is, I will take it out and teach them all about it. If it is in a lock box, then chances are the thief, or rapist, or just outright murderer will be able to get to your bedroom before you get the darn thing out.

The same thing goes for Seat Belts. God how many people have died by burning to death in their car after an accident? Even though there are bistanders strugling, risking their own lives to get that dam seat belt off, and eventually the flames get so hot that they have to back off. They then get to expierience the nightmare of watching a person burn to death and there is absolutly nothing they can do about it. Take another example for the road. You are driving on a highway near your home at 65 miles per hour. Now another car passes in front of you and hits you head on. You might survive such an event if you have your seat belt on, but you are not going to walk away from that accident all hundy doorey saying "man I'm glad I had my seat belt on". You are going to be crippled for the rest of your life. Now I personally would just rather go through the windshield and be done with it right then and there. But what the government fails to understand is that is my choice and they cannot make it for me. The same goes for the person who chooses to where their seat belt. It is their choice and no law can tell them to do it.

Last but not least, keep in mind that gun laws only penalize the normal person. Crooks are going to get guns one way or the other. They are already breaking the law in whatever they are planning, so what difference is to steale or buy a gun via a back alley dealler. It is the normal person that cannot get the gun, because they would not even know where to start looking.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I am not as strict about that policy in the "off-topic" sections of the forums. ;)


Chris:

We love how you mellow in you old age:D Seriously, we need another contentious topic to sink our teeth (what's left of them) into! C'mont let's debate the Alaska class!

[Warship NWS]

Chris:

We love how you mellow in you old age:D Seriously, we need another contentious topic to sink our teeth (what's left of them) into! C'mont let's debate the Alaska class!

The funny man with a funny plan..;)

[Warship NWS]

Guys.. this thread is done, let's move on. Thanks.

[old_pop2000]

Well, my son got me a nice birthday and christmas gift. A lower receiver and buttstock assy to an AR-15 rifle. He has the buttstock and the trigger assy. The next portion that I have to buy is the upper receiver and barrel assy. I believe that he has the bolt carrier assy and charging handle assy. With the addition of a sling, I will have a standard issue AR-15 .223 Cal. Rifle to shoot at the range or out in the desert with. I am intending to keep it standard with no match barrel that increases the weight or match trigger. Match triggers have less pull but I do not intend to do any matches. I may purchase later, a .22 cal rimfire upper which makes shooting for fun, much cheaper.

Anyway, I can't pick it up till December 27, but it was a good gift and I will have many hours of fun with him, shooting.

[keschofield]

Congratulations Dennis. Sounds like a nice gift. I hope you get much enjoyment from it.

Missing my father and my rifles this time each year, Kurt.

[old_pop2000]

Congratulations Dennis. Sounds like a nice gift. I hope you get much enjoyment from it.

Missing my father and my rifles this time each year, Kurt.

I also miss my dad at this time. He was an ordnance expert and knew guns well. It would have been a joy to see and talk to his grandson about weapons. He would have been proud the tradition was continuing with him. So, I will substitute the best I can.

[paladin5]

Well, my son got me a nice birthday and christmas gift. A lower receiver and buttstock assy to an AR-15 rifle. He has the buttstock and the trigger assy. The next portion that I have to buy is the upper receiver and barrel assy. I believe that he has the bolt carrier assy and charging handle assy. With the addition of a sling, I will have a standard issue AR-15 .223 Cal. Rifle to shoot at the range or out in the desert with. I am intending to keep it standard with no match barrel that increases the weight or match trigger. Match triggers have less pull but I do not intend to do any matches. I may purchase later, a .22 cal rimfire upper which makes shooting for fun, much cheaper.

Anyway, I can't pick it up till December 27, but it was a good gift and I will have many hours of fun with him, shooting.


Is it just me or does it sound like you are buying a gun one part at a time?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Well, my son got me a nice birthday and christmas gift. A lower receiver and buttstock assy to an AR-15 rifle. He has the buttstock and the trigger assy. The next portion that I have to buy is the upper receiver and barrel assy. I believe that he has the bolt carrier assy and charging handle assy. With the addition of a sling, I will have a standard issue AR-15 .223 Cal. Rifle to shoot at the range or out in the desert with. I am intending to keep it standard with no match barrel that increases the weight or match trigger. Match triggers have less pull but I do not intend to do any matches. I may purchase later, a .22 cal rimfire upper which makes shooting for fun, much cheaper.

Anyway, I can't pick it up till December 27, but it was a good gift and I will have many hours of fun with him, shooting.

Dennis:

What size magazines are you allowed to own in CA?

[Jittery]

I cant find it but at our range we have little plastic lugs that have to go in the breach when the range is closed. Like a small plastic bullet with a lug that sticks up about 10 cm. Also designated shooting times ie: 30 mins shooting 15 to change targets or bays. Our club president is a local police officer who is also in charge of range safety throughout the state and registration etc. Being a avid shooter himself he has actually got funding from the police for flashing lights in the shooting hall at most of the clubs around the state. IE: when shooting the door is closed to the range with a red light on at the outside, and flashing both outside and on range when its closed from shooting as a visual indicator for club members on the range and outside.

Firearm laws are different in Australia to the US and England, the local police mans opinion is that the people who register and maintain their firearms safely are not the problem its the ones that are held illegally. A few years ago the Police in Victoria did a raid where all the firearms they picked up that were illegal were being "hired out". ie: you hired it for a week for $2000 and if you used it you bought it for a additional $8000. That is the frightening thing about the illegal firearms. I'm not saying i agree or disagree with the laws locally or abroad however no matter what they are, the problem remains with those who don't do the safe thing with their firearms and don't register them accordingly and follow the laws.

I remember a story from another old club member when he was traveling to East Germany for a shooting competition. They only allowed a maximum of 400 rounds to be taken across the border (needed at least 600 for practice and competition) and when on the range at the end of every shoot they required you to account for all the bullets expended, ie: pick up every shell and hand it in to the range officer. The problem with this was that during the competition they had officials picking up brass between the different position shoots so when the competition was over and they had to hand in the amount of brass they had taken into the range from the lock up, none of them had the amount as it had all been picked up during the competition by the officials asking for it. They were then kicked out of East Germany and disqualified from the competition for breaching the local safety rules. Now this wasn't about the rules so to say but screwing over any and every shooter from a western nation but is an example of how bad it can be. For the record shooters from the Warsaw Pact came 1-18th in every competition in that event :eek:. It was one of the first with allocated positions to the 88 Olympics so they did a decent job of ensuring they got in :rolleyes:

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

What size magazines are you allowed to own in CA?

10 rnd mags. I've got one in my draw.

[old_pop2000]

Is it just me or does it sound like you are buying a gun one part at a time?

Yup. One part at a time. Its the only way he can afford to buy me the gun and its kind of fun.

[old_pop2000]

I cant find it but at our range we have little plastic lugs that have to go in the breach when the range is closed. Like a small plastic bullet with a lug that sticks up about 10 cm. Also designated shooting times ie: 30 mins shooting 15 to change targets or bays. Our club president is a local police officer who is also in charge of range safety throughout the state and registration etc. Being a avid shooter himself he has actually got funding from the police for flashing lights in the shooting hall at most of the clubs around the state. IE: when shooting the door is closed to the range with a red light on at the outside, and flashing both outside and on range when its closed from shooting as a visual indicator for club members on the range and outside.




Our range uses the same device. When the range officer declares, is the range clear on the left and right, all breaches have to be open, mags removed and a plastic device stuck in the breach to indicate it. We use weed whacker line.

[paladin5]

Yup. One part at a time. Its the only way he can afford to buy me the gun and its kind of fun.


Hmm I must have read your first post wrong. I though you were buying him a gun one part at a time, and I just found that to be funny as hell. Now that i have it right, it is only moderately amusing. :s