This day in naval history

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

On May 1st 1898, the American Asiatic Squadron under the command of Commodore George Dewey defeated the Spanish Pacific squadron at the battle of Manila Bay, thereby ushering in a new era in US international relations and marks the beginning of the rise of the modern US navy. Shameless jingoistic saber rattling by Ed.

[clacton2]

Hi:

On May 1st 1898, the American Asiatic Squadron under the command of Commodore George Dewey defeated the Spanish Pacific squadron at the battle of Manila Bay, thereby ushering in a new era in US international relations and marks the beginning of the rise of the modern US navy. Shameless jingoistic saber rattling by Ed.

Ed,
From small acorns, great oaks are made.
Jon:)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
From small acorns, great oaks are made.
Jon:)

Jon:

How true, you have to start somewhere.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

On this day May 2nd 1982, HMS Conqueror sank the Argentinian cruiser General Belgrano (ex USS Phoenix) with heavy loss of life during the Falklands war.

[clacton2]

Hi:

On this day May 2nd 1982, HMS Conqueror sank the Argentinian cruiser General Belgrano (ex USS Phoenix) with heavy loss of life during the Falklands war.

Ed,
Don't think I will ever forget that day!
Jon:eek:

[djcyclone]

Ed,
Don't think I will ever forget that day!
Jon:eek:



Was that the event that got the newspaper article "GOTCHA"? From what I understand it was that article that really got the British public to support the war.

[Smiffy]

Was that the event that got the newspaper article "GOTCHA"? From what I understand it was that article that really got the British public to support the war.

It did generate that headline. Although most people already supported the war, there were those who thought the headline too triumphalist. There were also those who seemed to think that because the ship was, at the time of the attack, steaming away from the exclusion zone, she should not have been attacked. There were also those of us who thought, "To hell with exclusion zones, it's an enemy warship." Despite moving generally away from the exclusion zone she was, in fact, closing on the British task force.

The "shouldn't shoot if it's steaming away" faction didn't seem to realise that a ship can turn around quite quickly. The real reason that Conqueror took the shot when she did was that she was running out of sea room, because the Argentinian force was approaching an area of shallow water and it was "now or never".

The kill was made with a WW2 vintage MkVIII** torpedo.

[Ed Rotondaro]

It did generate that headline. Although most people already supported the war, there were those who thought the headline too triumphalist. There were also those who seemed to think that because the ship was, at the time of the attack, steaming away from the exclusion zone, she should not have been attacked. There were also those of us who thought, "To hell with exclusion zones, it's an enemy warship." Despite moving generally away from the exclusion zone she was, in fact, closing on the British task force.

The "shouldn't shoot if it's steaming away" faction didn't seem to realise that a ship can turn around quite quickly. The real reason that Conqueror took the shot when she did was that she was running out of sea room, because the Argentinian force was approaching an area of shallow water and it was "now or never".

The kill was made with a WW2 vintage MkVIII** torpedo.

Smiffy et al:

General Belgrano got sunk because her stupid government made bad decisions that put her in harms way and honest sailors paid the price. Conqueror's attack made Argentina realize that this was no longer a pissing match, but a real shooting war and they picked the wrong navy to f**k with. Rule Britannia! Chris I won't rant politically anymore.

[Warship NWS]

Even though the war was tragic it was a military arms war and you don't bring your toys out to play unless you intend to use them. Sinking the Belgrano may well have saved more Argentinian lives in the end as their navy decided not to risk an all out naval confrontation which would have cost them the bulk of their naval forces and far more lives lost. In effect, the RN mission killed their navy by sinking one old cruiser and it was not the fault of the sub crew that many on the ship were lost... they rolled the dice when they came out to play and paid the only price that is to be expected in combat - men and machines die.

My 2 cents anyways.

[Warship NWS]

Side note.. the worst threat ever to the Royal Navy.. their own government funding, especially after WW2. Another Falklands situation would likely prove that point very bluntly unfortunately. Just my personal observation and not intended for political debate.

Thanks.

[clacton2]

It did generate that headline. Although most people already supported the war, there were those who thought the headline too triumphalist. There were also those who seemed to think that because the ship was, at the time of the attack, steaming away from the exclusion zone, she should not have been attacked. There were also those of us who thought, "To hell with exclusion zones, it's an enemy warship." Despite moving generally away from the exclusion zone she was, in fact, closing on the British task force.

The "shouldn't shoot if it's steaming away" faction didn't seem to realise that a ship can turn around quite quickly. The real reason that Conqueror took the shot when she did was that she was running out of sea room, because the Argentinian force was approaching an area of shallow water and it was "now or never".

The kill was made with a WW2 vintage MkVIII** torpedo.

Hi,
This post says it all.
Jon;)

[asnrobert]

I think the "exclusion zone" was alot of nonsense, similar to the "romeos" (Rules of Engagement) that hobbled our pilots during the Vietnam war (i.e. early in the war, you couldn't attack an enemy MiG on the ground; you had to wait until it was airborne and showing "hostile intent"). War is nasty and brutal (or as Sherman put it, "War is cruelty and you cannot refine it"), and if you see an enemy ship or plane, you kill it before it has the chance to kill you. Period. As Admiral Jackie Fisher put it, "Moderation in war is an imbecility."

[Warship NWS]

As General Horner said, IIRC, "The only humane war is one that is fought as ferociously as possible so it will end as fast as possible."

[Ed Rotondaro]

As General Horner said, IIRC, "The only humane war is one that is fought as ferociously as possible so it will end as fast as possible."

Chris:

Precisely! The only good thing about war is avoiding it or ending it as quickly and decisively as possible so it doesn't occur again. Does anyone thing Japan would want a rematch with the US?

[Smiffy]

I will always remember the Friday that Argentina attacked the Falklands. I was in London for the day with a friend, visiting the Imperial War Museum and several pubs, well, to tell the truth, lots of pubs. Once we heard of the invasion we decided to head for Downing Street, via a few more pubs. When we got there it was full of the usual crowd of Japanese tourists, my pal and I were the only Brits there. I felt that we should show support for our brethren in the Falklands, so I started to chant "Bomb, Montevideo! Bomb Montevideo!" The policeman who stands outside No. 10 came across to me and said, "I think you mean Buenos Aires, mate. Montevideo's in Uruguay.":o

Wasn't so funny next morning, I got a call from the Admiral Commanding Reserves and I was back in bell-bottomed trousers.

[JMS]

2 minor points, the Argentinians themselves considered the sinking of Belgrano a legitimate act of war, so they certainly weren't involved in a mere pissing match. They also tried, but failed, to launch aircraft from 25 de Mayo to attack the TF.

It should also be noted that for all the Iron lady image of Ms. Thacher, the UK govt. had to be pushed to go to war (gently) by the head of the defence staff whose name I have forgotten.

[clacton2]

2 minor points, the Argentinians themselves considered the sinking of Belgrano a legitimate act of war, so they certainly weren't involved in a mere pissing match. They also tried, but failed, to launch aircraft from 25 de Mayo to attack the TF.

It should also be noted that for all the Iron lady image of Ms. Thacher, the UK govt. had to be pushed to go to war (gently) by the head of the defence staff whose name I have forgotten.


Hi JMS,
Chief of the Defence Staff at the time was Admiral Terence Lewin.

Jon:)

[Smiffy]

2 minor points, the Argentinians themselves considered the sinking of Belgrano a legitimate act of war, so they certainly weren't involved in a mere pissing match. They also tried, but failed, to launch aircraft from 25 de Mayo to attack the TF.

It should also be noted that for all the Iron lady image of Ms. Thacher, the UK govt. had to be pushed to go to war (gently) by the head of the defence staff whose name I have forgotten.

According to his biography, the Chief of Defence Staff had to fight his way past a policeman to get to Thatcher before she spoke to Parliament on the day after the invasion. Mrs T was, according to the Admiral, going to tell Parliament that the invasion was a "fait acompli" and that there was nothing the the UK could do about it. He tried to call her at No.10 but was told she had left for Parliament, so he drove there and, in his haste, forgot his ID. The policeman on the door tried to refuse him entry, but he forced his way through and was able to speak to the PM before she entered the Commons Chamber.

It was his personal assurance that the Navy could do the job that convinced Thatcher to tell Parliament that the UK would fight for the Islands.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I will always remember the Friday that Argentina attacked the Falklands. I was in London for the day with a friend, visiting the Imperial War Museum and several pubs, well, to tell the truth, lots of pubs. Once we heard of the invasion we decided to head for Downing Street, via a few more pubs. When we got there it was full of the usual crowd of Japanese tourists, my pal and I were the only Brits there. I felt that we should show support for our brethren in the Falklands, so I started to chant "Bomb, Montevideo! Bomb Montevideo!" The policeman who stands outside No. 10 came across to me and said, "I think you mean Buenos Aires, mate. Montevideo's in Uruguay.":o

Wasn't so funny next morning, I got a call from the Admiral Commanding Reserves and I was back in bell-bottomed trousers.

Smiffy:

I forgot like Jon, you are also a vet of the RN. What ship did you end up serving on?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

Well there just seems to something about the month of may and naval and military history. Maybe the weather's good enough for action in the Atlantic, or the campaigning season is underway on land.

On May 7th 1915, U-20 sank the British liner Lusitania with the loss of 1,198 persons including 128 Americans. Needless to say this act doesn't endear Germany to the US.

On May 8th 1945, after signing the documents of unconditional surrender, all German forces ceased active operations as of 23:01 hours.

Stay tuned for more May history, there are two biggies still to come (and I'm sure most of you know what events I'm referring to.).