Libyan Air Defenses

[old_pop2000]

Another hot issue we might discuss. Their IADS was shredded during the 1986 raids and was never upgraded. We have F-22's available in Egypt, if necessary and Block II F/A-18F on the Enterprise. So, in theory, it should be easy especially with the cruise missiles targeting the missile batteries, radar along with the Command and control. We also have E-3s and E-8s available. There are NATO aircraft in Italy not to mention if the Israeli's would like to take a lick at him for fun.

Any idea, Gents

[Armand2REP]

Well, I kind of already modeled my idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpHgAGx0VCM

BBC reports France is likely to carry out the first airstrikes with the help of UK. I don't see Typhoons operating out of Cyprus being able to stay on station long enough to make a difference. RAF can certainly provide some tankers and AWACs support for Rafale and M2000s. We are finally going to see this alliance working... oh baby it is going to be fireworks!

[Fleet Command CC]

Another hot issue we might discuss. Their IADS was shredded during the 1986 raids and was never upgraded. We have F-22's available in Egypt, if necessary and Block II F/A-18F on the Enterprise. So, in theory, it should be easy especially with the cruise missiles targeting the missile batteries, radar along with the Command and control. We also have E-3s and E-8s available. There are NATO aircraft in Italy not to mention if the Israeli's would like to take a lick at him for fun.

Any idea, Gents

Hey old_pop2000.

Well the UK isn't going to be doing much, because all these cuts the SDSR has set out.

[Fleet Command CC]

Well, I kind of already modeled my idea.
BBC reports France is likely to carry out the first airstrikes with the help of UK. I don't see Typhoons operating out of Cyprus being able to stay on station long enough to make a difference. RAF can certainly provide some tankers and AWACs support for Rafale and M2000s. We are finally going to see this alliance working... oh baby it is going to be fireworks!

Hey Armand2REP.

The french should do it on there own, the UK help would probably just mess it all up, so you frenches would be best to do it all yourself. :)

[old_pop2000]

Hey Gents, the video was very cool and the politics shouldn't be in the discussion. But no one has told me anything useful. Here is the key:

THREAT ASSESSMENT AND ANALYSIS

Now, what constitutes an integrated air defense system? What do I need to know about it, to attack it and neutralize it? How about this. Look at a map, find the radars, SAM batteries, airfields, command and control bunkers etc. Location,location, location.

;)

[steel_selachian]

Well the RAF still has the Tornado force to drop bombs and fire ALARMs, so that might be of use. My bet is that whatever's left of the Libyan air force will not require much A2A action, if any. Plus bets are good that there would be a Trafalgar-class boat off the beach with some Tomahawks, perhaps with some US 688s (the nice thing about sub-launched missiles, it's plausible deniability, especially when the RN and USN use the same weapons).

Admittedly I see the point of some who aren't crazy about the US taking part; we've spent billions equipping and training the Arab League's air forces. It would be nice if they used them for something, like say handling problems on their own block. How hard it's going to be to put the Gadhafi's (or Qaddafi or however the hell it is he spells his name these days) military out of business isn't the hard part; it's adding that to the pile and giving the usual suspects the chance to point their figures and say the US and the West are "meddling" in the Middle East again.

[Armand2REP]

Hey Armand2REP.

The french should do it on there own, the UK help would probably just mess it all up, so you frenches would be best to do it all yourself. :)

French forces are going to make up the largest contingent and start bombing first, we have 1000 MICAs, hundreds of Scalps and 1000 AASMs waiting to be launched. Better to use them saving lives than being wasted in an arms depot. If our RAF buddies can help augment our support aircraft, we can handle the combat.

[old_pop2000]

Reality check time. There are two types of IADS: fixed and mobile. Fixed is doctrinally concerned with "detection, identification and warning of air threats against high value assets, strategic targets, key command, control, communications and computer nodes and critical military units." It is also concerned with destruction or neutralization of hostile aircraft. Mobile IADS stresses echeloning of forces in-depth and includes tactical and strategic surface to air missiles and AAA. Libya has to consider the last when deploying its mobile forces along the Via Balbia between Tripoli and Benghazi. They essentialy have the same problem Rommel had against the British Desert Air Force flying out of Egypt.

That's the problem for them. BTW, there is a large gap in his radar net between Tripoli and Bengazi, along the Gulf of Sirte. No radar coverage.

Source: Joint Pub 3-01.4 JTTP for Joint Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses(J-Sead) Dtd 25 july 1995

[old_pop2000]

One of the issues with no-fly zones especially with rebels, is the safety of coalition air forces. These rebels are not highly trained soldiers. They don't have ground to air radios with the frequencies of our aircraft and they tend to shoot at anything that flies by. How do we coordinate our aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone over such a fluid situation? How do we prevent our aircraft from striking rebel forces, if they start to move against the libyan military once the Libyan military has no air cover. Because, that is exactly what the rebel forces will do, move toward Tripoli. There will have to be some sort of ground based forward air controllers with the Rebels to inform the coalition aircraft of the location of the outer limits of the rebels. This whole situation could spiral out of control, very quickly and many will lose their lives. As an addendum, here is what the Libyan radar net coverage looks like. Trust me, nothing is that complete. There are always holes.


1069

[steel_selachian]

One of the issues with no-fly zones especially with rebels, is the safety of coalition air forces. These rebels are not highly trained soldiers. They don't have ground to air radios with the frequencies of our aircraft and they tend to shoot at anything that flies by. How do we coordinate our aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone over such a fluid situation? How do we prevent our aircraft from striking rebel forces, if they start to move against the libyan military once the Libyan military has no air cover. Because, that is exactly what the rebel forces will do, move toward Tripoli. There will have to be some sort of ground based forward air controllers with the Rebels to inform the coalition aircraft of the location of the outer limits of the rebels. This whole situation could spiral out of control, very quickly and many will lose their lives. As an addendum, here is what the Libyan radar net coverage looks like. Trust me, nothing is that complete. There are always holes.


1069

Sticky problem indeed. That's crossing a definite line - unless you want to hand rebel forces NATO-compatible communications gear, FACs mean putting your own guys on the ground, probably with the rebels - who may be a sketchy bunch vis-a-vis the safety of those FACs. Plus in PR terms it constitutes a military ground presence by outside forces. Safer move might be simply to stick with enforcing a no-fly zone and not trying to muck with airstrikes in support of the rebels. Even without friendly fire, you're looking at a high probability of good old-fashioned AAA guided by the Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball along with MANPADs that will keep aircraft above about 15,000 feet.

[old_pop2000]

Sticky problem indeed. That's crossing a definite line - unless you want to hand rebel forces NATO-compatible communications gear, FACs mean putting your own guys on the ground, probably with the rebels - who may be a sketchy bunch vis-a-vis the safety of those FACs. Plus in PR terms it constitutes a military ground presence by outside forces. Safer move might be simply to stick with enforcing a no-fly zone and not trying to muck with airstrikes in support of the rebels. Even without friendly fire, you're looking at a high probability of good old-fashioned AAA guided by the Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball along with MANPADs that will keep aircraft above about 15,000 feet.

It is a definite problem. One method is to instruct the Rebels to layout cloth of definite colors near their front lines to mark them, but at 400 MPH, that can be tricky. JSTARS could be useful in tracking the forces, but how to tell good guy from bad guy without electronic aids is problematic. You might be able to use GPS and lock on to them. They can carry them in their vehicles and this might allow the JSTARS to track friendly vehicles.

[steel_selachian]

It is a definite problem. One method is to instruct the Rebels to layout cloth of definite colors near their front lines to mark them, but at 400 MPH, that can be tricky. JSTARS could be useful in tracking the forces, but how to tell good guy from bad guy without electronic aids is problematic. You might be able to use GPS and lock on to them. They can carry them in their vehicles and this might allow the JSTARS to track friendly vehicles.

Or keep it simple - stick to air and active air-defense targets and tell the rebels they're on their own as far as taking out ground targets that aren't shooting at us.

[old_pop2000]

Or keep it simple - stick to air and active air-defense targets and tell the rebels they're on their own as far as taking out ground targets that aren't shooting at us.

That would be the easiest and safest, but I don't believe that it will work forever. You are going to have to deal with movement of friendly forces near SAM and EW sites eventually. When that happens, then you have to deal with the possibility of friendly fire incidents. Another issue is that, as the saying goes "somebody always fail to get the word". This is a real possibility, someone in the wrong place, right time, gets hammered.

[old_pop2000]

It's reported that British aircraft have moved to bases in Italy and Malta but more importantly AWACS is now off of the coast monitoring Libyan air defenses. I suspect this is the threat analysis and assessment portion of SEAD. They are looking for holes in the radar net, downtimes, and many other factors. They may be gauging SAM missile response times along with fighter responses. Look for a request to the new Egyptian government for overfly privileges for Navy and Marine fighters from the Enterprise in the Red Sea. I think that is where she is, unless she has moved in the Med. The French are probably the first into the fray, as they are the closest along with the Spanish. The British may wait to get their support structure in place, before flying. We might overfly with drones to test his system and get some detailed information on where is mobile IADS equipment is located and what it consists of.

The games afoot, Watson!

[Armand2REP]

US isn't even going to be providing fighters, only support aircraft. Apparently Obama is too afraid of what Arabs will think of the US if he bombs more Arabs. lol

ALLIED FORCES

French force position:

Forbin is off the coast of Libya now. CdG battle group departing Toulon on Sunday. Istres (France), Solenzara (Corsica) and N'Djemena (Chad) are on high alert getting reinforced squadrons and supplies for the campaign. Over 100 fighters are being made ready. Joan of Arc 2011 has yet to depart the Eastern Med which includes Mistral and Georges Leygues .

British force position:

Frigates HMS Cumberland and HMS Westminster in international Med waters. Malta has allowed a couple AWACs stationed. RAF Akrotiri is on high alert with several Typhoon and GR4s coming along with tankers. 2 Nimrods facing scrap have been delayed. Up to 40 combat aircraft will be provided by RAF.

US force position:

USN will only launch TLAMs against the IADS. Obama made it clear "I am not authorizing any soldiers or fighter planes." If push comes to shove, the Big-E can come but not likely. Support flights will come out of Italian bases. 2 ABs, 1 LPD, 1 LPH and 1 SSN are in the Med. More SSNs are said to be dispatched.

UAE and Qatar position:

send assistance... maybe?

Canada force position:

Sending 6 CF-18s from Quebec so they are most likely going to augment Corsica

GADDAFI FORCES

100 combat jets
30 helicopters
15 transports

30 SAM installations including 50 SA-6 missiles, unknown number SA-5

[old_pop2000]

If you have watched the media today, they have video of a Rebel fighter being hit and going down with his tail on fire. The pilot seems to have ejected. The aircraft appeared to be a Soviet built Su-23, possibly a SU-27. The Rebels claim it was over rebel held territory. So, now we get to my earlier post, friendly fire incidents. Was this a friendly fire incident? Possibly, or maybe the advancing Qaddafi tanks, fired a missile and struck it at long range. The video isn't conclusive enough, although the fireball was off in the distance before the close ups occurred.

This seems to emphasize the point about the no-fly zone. Even if you specify a box area within which the coalition aircraft will fly- - the no-fly zone- and take out the known air defenses, there will always be someone with a shoulder fired missile lurking on the ground and of course, friendlies with those same weapons.

I expect some coalition action today, maybe cruise missile attacks on SAM sites and fixed radars, but definitely fighters showing up over the outskirts of Benghazi and along the Via Balbia(Old Italian name for coast road).

[O.K.]

If you have watched the media today, they have video of a Rebel fighter being hit and going down with his tail on fire. The pilot seems to have ejected. The aircraft appeared to be a Soviet built Su-23, possibly a SU-27. The Rebels claim it was over rebel held territory. So, now we get to my earlier post, friendly fire incidents. Was this a friendly fire incident? Possibly, or maybe the advancing Qaddafi tanks, fired a missile and struck it at long range. The video isn't conclusive enough, although the fireball was off in the distance before the close ups occurred.

This seems to emphasize the point about the no-fly zone. Even if you specify a box area within which the coalition aircraft will fly- - the no-fly zone- and take out the known air defenses, there will always be someone with a shoulder fired missile lurking on the ground and of course, friendlies with those same weapons.

I expect some coalition action today, maybe cruise missile attacks on SAM sites and fixed radars, but definitely fighters showing up over the outskirts of Benghazi and along the Via Balbia(Old Italian name for coast road).

It was MiG-23. Libya never had Su-27, and I never heard about Su-23.

[Armand2REP]

5:57 p.m.: The French aircraft opened fire on a military vehicle at 17:45 Libya, according to the Ministry of Defense French Defense.
It stipulates that the French are concentrated around the city of Benghazi.

5:46 p.m.: The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should sail Sunday from Toulon to Libya, said the French Ministry of Defense.

17h45: "Twenty units are engaged today"
Colonel Burkhard presents the various mechanisms set up by the French army to intervene in Libya as part of the resolution at the UN.


5:18 p.m.: An AWACS, two Rafale and two French Mirage involved in military operations over Benghazi
So says a French military source told Reuters.

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/690112/monde-la-libye-direct-francais-ouvert-feu-vehicule-militaire-libyen

[old_pop2000]

It was MiG-23. Libya never had Su-27, and I never heard about Su-23.

You are entirely correct, I thought one thing and type another. Thanks for the correction. It probably was a Mig-23, because the Soviets were careful about who got the Mig-27s.

[Armand2REP]

18:45: Four Libyan tanks destroyed by French planes
According to Al Jazeera, the French army had destroyed four armored forces loyal to Gaddafi southwest of Benghazi.

[old_pop2000]

If the reports are valid, then the preparation of three submarines by the US could mean Tomahawks being launched on known SAM and EW sites. Hard to know what this actually means, but it won't be good for the Libyan's. It might be a strike in preparation against Libyan air fields, fuel and ammo dumps, truck parks etc.

I am surprised about the possible destruction of four tanks. Why were they inside Benghazi, what kind of armoured vehicles? Generally, you would send in recce groups of BTR-60s, BRDM-2s, BMP's and a few tanks. I haven't heard much about Libyan infantry.

I hope, when those pilots get back to base and are debriefed, the French will be forthcoming about the circumstances.

[old_pop2000]

It appears, if MSNBC can be believed, that US missiles are in the air. I suspect some of the eighteen radar sites will be targeted to protect the French aircraft. Once a hole is created in the radar coverage, then you can go after the actual missiles.

[O.K.]

It appears, if MSNBC can be believed, that US missiles are in the air. I suspect some of the eighteen radar sites will be targeted to protect the French aircraft. Once a hole is created in the radar coverage, then you can go after the actual missiles.

It is unfortunate for a strike package, to reveal such info.
Libyan loyalist may then get prepared for a strike.
Well, if the info is correct, we should hear in about 1h an info about several big booms in Libyan installations.

[old_pop2000]

It is unfortunate for a strike package, to reveal such info.
Libyan loyalist may then get prepared for a strike.
Well, if the info is correct, we should hear in about 1h an info about several big booms in Libyan installations.

The information was originally from a "senior defense official". That means a cute secretary in the Pentagon, probably. Anyway, Misrata and Tripoli will be the first targets.

[old_pop2000]

Apparently there were over 110 new and older tomahawks launched from US and a UK submarines. SA-5s, Radars, C2 were all targetted. They were loitering then detected targets and then went in to sanitize the area. Over 20 targets were struck. BDA will take time.

IMO, the French fighters launched into Libya were designed to activate the SAM sites and radar, so the loitering missiles could detect and head toward the targets. Old trick we used in Vietnam, Navy aircraft would launch, fly over Haiphong, while USAF Wild Weasels waited near Thud Ridge. Once the SAM radars were on, the Weasels went in. Can't believe the Libyan's actually fell for that old trick.

[O.K.]

110... large number. Usually they used about 50-70 missiles.

[steel_selachian]

Apparently there were over 110 new and older tomahawks launched from US and a UK submarines. SA-5s, Radars, C2 were all targetted. They were loitering then detected targets and then went in to sanitize the area. Over 20 targets were struck. BDA will take time.

IMO, the French fighters launched into Libya were designed to activate the SAM sites and radar, so the loitering missiles could detect and head toward the targets. Old trick we used in Vietnam, Navy aircraft would launch, fly over Haiphong, while USAF Wild Weasels waited near Thud Ridge. Once the SAM radars were on, the Weasels went in. Can't believe the Libyan's actually fell for that old trick.

I think we've previously established these guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the lot. Frankly at this point any of Ghadafi's folks who haven't said "**** this" and bugged out probably aren't thinking straight. ADM-141s are more often used for that sort of thing when it's a US job though (see "Poobah's Party" in Desert Storm).

Nice apparent demonstration of the in-flight retargeting capabilities of the Block IV TLAM.

[old_pop2000]

I think we've previously established these guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the lot. Frankly at this point any of Ghadafi's folks who haven't said "**** this" and bugged out probably aren't thinking straight. ADM-141s are more often used for that sort of thing when it's a US job though (see "Poobah's Party" in Desert Storm).

Nice apparent demonstration of the in-flight retargeting capabilities of the Block IV TLAM.


It's possible that a few diehards are still manning the systems, but this might have made many decide that the regime isn't that important. Problem is that they have families to protect against the internal police forces. As to the decoys, there are many options for this ploy, but manned aircraft work well and they were already headed toward the eastern portion, so why not let them fly near the Gulf of Sirte and activate his IAD systems. I'll bet not much retargetting needed to be done. I suspect there might be boots on the ground, illuminating the targets. Person or persons unknown. It was a combination of efforts in the threat assessment and analysis of the Libyan IADS.

[steel_selachian]

It's possible that a few diehards are still manning the systems, but this might have made many decide that the regime isn't that important. Problem is that they have families to protect against the internal police forces. As to the decoys, there are many options for this ploy, but manned aircraft work well and they were already headed toward the eastern portion, so why not let them fly near the Gulf of Sirte and activate his IAD systems. I'll bet not much retargetting needed to be done. I suspect there might be boots on the ground, illuminating the targets. Person or persons unknown. It was a combination of efforts in the threat assessment and analysis of the Libyan IADS.

Figured that the threat of retaliation (or in the case of mercs recruited from sub-Saharan Africa, cash) is probably the primary motivator, but that still means these guys aren't going to be thinking things out. The problem you see with guys operating under a gun is that they're afraid of getting shot for doing something that looks like disobeying orders. How is it going to look to the goon squad if NATO aircraft are in range and a SAM battery commander is holding his fire?

Another reason to use manned aircraft in this instance is, unless Armand can correct me, the French and British don't have an air-launched decoy like the TALD, and for now the US is sticking to lobbing TLAMs. The Block IV has a datalink, TV camera, and the capacity to store multiple target coordinates onboard, which allows it to be used somewhat like the Vietnam-era Wild Weasels - put 'em up to loiter and then tell them via satellite link what to clobber when the air defenses wake up. Fun trick. I'll bet most if not all of the Libyan air defense sites were known to US intel, there's not much cover there. If I can download a Google Earth widget and look at their active SAM sites, sending a team of snake-eaters in to eyeball them probably isn't required.

[old_pop2000]

Figured that the threat of retaliation (or in the case of mercs recruited from sub-Saharan Africa, cash) is probably the primary motivator, but that still means these guys aren't going to be thinking things out. The problem you see with guys operating under a gun is that they're afraid of getting shot for doing something that looks like disobeying orders. How is it going to look to the goon squad if NATO aircraft are in range and a SAM battery commander is holding his fire?

Another reason to use manned aircraft in this instance is, unless Armand can correct me, the French and British don't have an air-launched decoy like the TALD, and for now the US is sticking to lobbing TLAMs. The Block IV has a datalink, TV camera, and the capacity to store multiple target coordinates onboard, which allows it to be used somewhat like the Vietnam-era Wild Weasels - put 'em up to loiter and then tell them via satellite link what to clobber when the air defenses wake up. Fun trick. I'll bet most if not all of the Libyan air defense sites were known to US intel, there's not much cover there. If I can download a Google Earth widget and look at their active SAM sites, sending a team of snake-eaters in to eyeball them probably isn't required.

Here is a link that has a KMZ with Libyan IAD stuff. http://geimint.blogspot.com/

We probably did know most, but you want the latest intel especially on any movement. We probably have been snooping for the past week, trying to detect the mobile sites and the C2 sites. You want to get a regional direction center in some of these sites.

[Armand2REP]

French warplanes strike Tripoli outskirts

TRIPOLI, March 19 (Xinhua) -- French warplanes attacked an air defense site in Tajura, about 10 km east of the Libyan capital of Tripoli on Saturday night, in a wave of airstrikes against leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces, according to Xinhua correspondents.

Xinhua correspondents in Tripoli also confirmed that an oil storage in the western city of Misurata exploded on Saturday.

Libyan Parliament Speaker Mohammed Abul-Qassim al-Zwai said Saturday night in a press conference that foreign fighter jets had hit Tripoli and Misurata which caused many casualties.

The "barbaric armed attack" came after Libya announced ceasefire and major reforms, he added.

The military actions of western countries were launched after the U.N. Security Council imposed a no-fly zone over Libya.

Meanwhile, the United States Saturday launched the first Tomahawk missile attacks against the Libyan air defense from warships deployed in the Mediterranean, the Pentagon said.

The U.S. Navy has three submarines outfitted with Tomahawk missiles in the Mediterranean, as well as two guided-missile destroyers, and two amphibious warships, and a command-and-control ship, according to U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity. The military also has five surveillance planes in the area.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-03/20/c_13788053.htm

[old_pop2000]

One possible target is the air field at Umm Aitiqah, east of Tripoli. It's about five miles from the center of town. There is an east to west runway, 10,190 feet long with a parallel taxiway. Along the taxiway, are some aircraft parking areas. On the east end, is a an area with dual rotor helos and some large Soviet built single rotor transport helos. There is a NW to SE taxiway with Mig-23s parked. In the south area of the air field is a large Soviet bomber but it does not look operational.

[old_pop2000]

What I feared happened, the downed Mig-23 was, in fact, friendly fire. This is the problem with poorly trained and equipped forces. The Coalition will have to establish a corridor around the rebel forces, where nothing flies.

[old_pop2000]

B-2 stealth bombers have struck a major airfield, most likely the one east of downtown Tripoli. US F-16s from Sigonella have struck Libyan mobile troops.

It would appear, that this is less SEAD than DEAD. The SA-5 network is apparently dead, for all purposes, all that is left is the SA-3, SA-2 and ManPADS. Now it is time for the Libyan fighter forces to take hits, then a reassessment of any remaining SAMs. We probably will see one or two more barrages of missiles, but not in the numbers of the first day.

Without air cover, Qaddafi's mobile troops are nothing but targets. Enough bombing and they will break. There is virtually no cover along the coast road to speak of. Mobile troops, any troops, on that road are out in the open. Look for the logistics and support troops to be targetted next, they are in unarmoured vehicles. The road is still a two lane road possibly four in some local areas. This means congestion especially if his forward deployed troops have stopped. Truck parks, supply dumps are all good missile targets or precision guided bombs. This is the center of gravity for the strung out Libyan forces.

I don't believe that further operations near civilians is going to help this situation. It is probably better to now stick to overfly and enforcement of the no-fly zone. More casualties just help the Libyan cause.

[old_pop2000]

There are reports by CNN in the area outside Benghazi that there is another "Highway of Death" for Qaddafi forces. Tanks and other armoured vehicles, SUVs etc. all destroyed and burnt out. This was apparently a 70 vehicle convoy attempting to infiltrate Benghazi. This would seem to indicate that it may be time for the Rebels to start an advance down that road. Pursuit is the name of the game, with the no-fly zone in place and operating. Allied bombing probably now needs to stop, to maintain public opinion. I suspect that the Saudi's or some other trained Arab forces might be on the ground with new weapons, assisting the Rebels, if so, then they will urge movement. They have to stay on the tails of the retreating Libyan forces, if that is what is happening. The best strategy for the Rebels, is to send infantry down the road with armour heading out into the desert to swing in behind the retreating forces. My problem is that this is an untrained force. They can't become a rabble driving down the road like saturday night in Los Angeles. The Rebels need organization and training, not more equipment. It is organization and training that will instill combat discipline on these forces and put them in good stead for the remainder of the operations.

I was heartened to see the Arab league reaffirm their support. This bodes well for the future.

[old_pop2000]

Unconfirmed reports say the Rebels have moved forward to occupy Ajdabiya. This is 88.5 miles from Benghazi at the confluence of four roads including the coast. The next stop would be Marsa Al Burayqah or Mersa el Brega.

[Armand2REP]

Results of French Air Strikes on Military Convoy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjt69erfFN0

[old_pop2000]

107210711070

Pictures of some Libyan equipment. The first is some self-propelled 155s, the second is a SA-8 Gecko and the last maybe the results of hits on the same 155 SP howitzers. This should illustrate how dangerous and accurate modern weapons are.

[Armand2REP]

107210711070

Pictures of some Libyan equipment. The first is some self-propelled 155s, the second is a SA-8 Gecko and the last maybe the results of hits on the same 155 SP howitzers. This should illustrate how dangerous and accurate modern weapons are.

Reports of Rafale loadouts suggest heavy use of AASM, Mirage-2000D would be using AS-30L or maybe even Paveway II. Doesn't really matter which, you are just as dead. 95 killed in that convoy.

[Armand2REP]

Strikes turn tide in battle for Benghazi

* Anthony Loyd
* From: The Times
* March 21, 2011 9:20AM

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/03/21/1226025/190249-libya-benghazi.jpg
A Libyan rebel celebrates the result of French air strikes on Gaddafi forces near Benghazi. Picture: AFP Source: AFP

ON Saturday they obeyed the folly of their leader, took their orders and made a city cower beneath their guns.

Yesterday they lay dead among their blazing war machines, Gaddafi loyalist troops blasted to pieces by French airstrikes that in an instant turned their advance upon Benghazi into an utter rout.

The first French strikes hit here shortly after 4am local time, hitting pro-Gaddafi tanks just outside Garyounis, the south-western suburb of Benghazi into which government forces had pushed a day earlier, bringing panic to the city and sending thousands of refugees fleeing eastward.

“They would have killed us all in Benghazi if it weren't for the French and British,” said a rebel fighter, Jubran, as he surveyed a destroyed tank, its turret thrown across the desert floor by the force of an explosion. “I called in the strike on this tank just after 4am, relaying word of its position to our headquarters in Benina airfield, who passed on its location to the French. They dealt with it quick.”

Colonel Gaddafi's units had penetrated Garyounis on Saturday morning but were held up by rebels in heavy fighting.

The wrecks of destroyed vehicles from both sides - pick-up trucks, civilian cars and two buses, all burnt out and bullet riddled - lay on either side of the main route linking Benghazi with Tripoli. Some of the wrecks, including tanks, were still aflame, and the foliage of shell-shattered trees lay scattered across the tarmac.

Rebel insiders say that these forces had halted their thrust into Benghazi by noon on Saturday because of shortages of fuel and ammunition. “Our radios picked up their transmissions,” one said. “They were halted by fighting with our units and couldn't resupply their forward troops.”

Later on Saturday afternoon the loyalist forces had fallen back to the southernmost outskirts of Garyounis, where rebels say they were being reinforced by fresh units and supplies, and continued to menace the city. It was here that the first airstrikes found them. But as the troops began to retreat, hit by the French and harried by rebels, much worse awaited them in Tika, 30km south of Benghazi.

At a road junction they were struck again by jets at 6.30am yesterday. The aircraft caught a concentration of tanks, transporters, armoured personnel carriers and pick-ups. It is hard to imagine how anyone escaped the frightful wrath that exploded in their midst.

Tanks lay twisted, their hulls shattered almost beyond recognition, as rebel fighters swarmed among their carcasses. At least 20 pick-ups, incinerated to little more than buckled metal, surrounded them. Ammunition trucks continued to explode as the rebels looted whatever they could, the fires sending missiles and rockets veering across a sky blackened with palls of smoke. A DHL supply lorry, used by the loyalist troops to carry their rations - in this case fruit - lay slewed and blasted at the roadside, its cargo impossibly intact. Rebel fighters strode among the corpses of burnt soldiers shouting in celebration, eating bananas and apples.

“See this one,” a rebel said to me, pointing to the upper torso of a teenage soldier - all that was left of him. He pointed to the youth's smooth face. “A son of Gaddafi. Just a boy.”

Some corpses were intact, others barely identifiable as human. One smouldering cadaver lay in the back of a bomb-blasted ambulance. I touched the floor of a huge crater beside the vehicle. The sand there had melted to a solid sheet of brown glass and was hot to the touch. “We don't have a problem with infidel nations bombing Gaddafi,” one fighter, a heavily bearded man draped with ammunition, said, smiling as he expanded his carefully honed sense of realpolitik. “Gaddafi is an infidel himself, so why as good Muslims should we be concerned at having other infidels bomb him? We're happy with Britain and France for this!”

The panic that must have followed this devastating attack just three hours earlier was clearly visible along either side of the road. Abandoned uniforms, weapons, ammunition stockpiles and rations littered the verges. Some of the cooking pots on the soldiers' campfires were still warm. Having fought only lightly armed rebels for the past month, the experience of airstrikes at the hands of the West had clearly hurled these units backwards in disarray. Strung out along hundreds of kilometres between Sirte and Benghazi, much of it in deeply hostile anti-Gaddafi territory, it is difficult to imagine how the fate of the colonel's forces in eastern Libya will be anything other than a disaster.

But amidst the carnage, the smell, flame, smoke and blackened metal, the cheering rebels and the sweet fruits of their reward, some men at least kept their humanity. “They are Muslims, and we are Muslims,” said one fighter as he surveyed the devastated bodies of his foes. “We shall cover them and bury them with respect.”

The experience of another rebel was an even more salutary reminder of what some of Gaddafi's troops have endured. “See that truck,” the man said to me, pointing out a multi-barrelled rocket launcher. Untouched by blast, it had been over-run by the advancing rebels a few hours earlier. “When we reached it we found the driver, one of Gaddafi's guys, still alive in the cab. He had been handcuffed to the steering wheel to stop him running away.”

The Times

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/strikes-turn-tide-in-battle-for-benghazi/story-fn7ycml4-1226025191950

[JMS]

The 155mm SP howitzers are the rather exotic OTO Melara Palmaria, an advanced 155mm turret on a Leopard 1 chassis. The Palmaria turret has been tried elsewhere (the Argentinian TAM chassis) but did not sold very well.

[old_pop2000]

The 155mm SP howitzers are the rather exotic OTO Melara Palmaria, an advanced 155mm turret on a Leopard 1 chassis. The Palmaria turret has been tried elsewhere (the Argentinian TAM chassis) but did not sold very well.

I am not quite certain what the commander of that unit was attempting. He had to know that J-stars was watching that road. Any movement toward Benghazi would be seen and intercepted. There is no cover on that road and coalition aircraft are equipped for night interdiction. Just a suicide mission.

[old_pop2000]

The defined targets for the coalition were Air defense sites, C2 and ground forces headed toward Benghazi. I suspect that the compound building is either a decoy C2 site or a valid C2 site. Elint assets probably detected data communications or voice emanating from the building, possibly the basement and it therefore became a valid target. One can assume that from the fact that one missile went through the roof and the other went through the hole, but did not detonate until it reached the basement.

So, where is Qaddafi? Probably in a mobile command vehicle with a civilian convoy. He might move around Tripoli but stay near his personal aircraft.

There might be a connection between the movement of the convoy and the strike in the building. If the order to move emanated from that building, then the destruction of the convoy might be followed by the strike on the building.

The old saying is "You move it, you lose it".

[steel_selachian]

Did some looking over Wikipedia's SAM pages - we're probably lucky this is happening now. Libya supposedly had 4 SA-20b systems on order from Russia. That would have made things a lot uglier. I don't know how far negotiations went or how realistic the prospects of approval were, but there were also reports that they wanted to order a squadron of Rafales from Dassault and were looking into an Su-35 purchase from Sukhoi.

EDIT: Had to repost this ...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/21/mod_gaddafi/

[old_pop2000]

Did some looking over Wikipedia's SAM pages - we're probably lucky this is happening now. Libya supposedly had 4 SA-20b systems on order from Russia. That would have made things a lot uglier. I don't know how far negotiations went or how realistic the prospects of approval were, but there were also reports that they wanted to order a squadron of Rafales from Dassault and were looking into an Su-35 purchase from Sukhoi.

EDIT: Had to repost this ...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/21/mod_gaddafi/

The SA-20 is just an updated S-300P. Again, more Russian hype. We've taken down every missile system that they have produced. I see nothing extraordinary about this one. Just more targets.

[old_pop2000]

One of the primary SAM missiles, 8 to be exact but 4 may not be occupied, is SA-2 Guideline. This is a very old command guidance beam riding missile. We first encountered it in 1965 during Rolling Thunder. It has been upgraded in the electronics, but it is still vulnerable to jamming. It has a range of 28 miles. So what is the counter against it. Well the ALQ-71 ECM pod, first termed the QRC-160. Another defense is the Wild Weasel operations. First in, last out. They get the radars to light up the weasels, and the weasels hit them with Shrike.

I am certain there are updated jamming pods and systems. I wouldn't waste missiles on a SA-2 Guideline.

　

[Armand2REP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWjfsgR14io

[steel_selachian]

The SA-20 is just an updated S-300P. Again, more Russian hype. We've taken down every missile system that they have produced. I see nothing extraordinary about this one. Just more targets.

Who did we go up against that had S-300s? I know since some of the old Warsaw Pact countries have joined NATO they've brought S-300PMUs to exercises, but I don't think we've actually gotten in a live-fire shootout with one.

[Armand2REP]

France destroyed a dozen Libyan armoured vehicles in last 72 hours

Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said French air strikes had destroyed a dozen Libyan armoured vehicles in three days, in an interview Thursday.

"The air exclusion zone has become a reality," Longuet said in the interview with Le Figaro newspaper. "But Resolution 1973 also stipulates that the coalition has all means at its disposal to protect the civilian population."

Coalition forces -- led by France, the United States, and Britain and including other European states along with Qatar -- have launched air strikes in Libya since Saturday, acting under the UN resolution authorising "all necessary means" to protect civilians in Libya.

Longuet said that the real threat to the population "today are the tanks, the artillery.

"The French side has taken out a dozen armoured vehicles in three days," he said. "This is decisive as we have practically not seen any tank concentrations since the strikes."


© 2011 AFP

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/france-destroyed-a-dozen-libyan-armoured-vehicles-minister_137798.html

Those strikes have been centred on Misurata.

16:30: The United States destroyed the wreckage of the F-15 crashed in Libya
The destruction of F-15 fighter that crashed in Libya is due to a mechanical problem, announced Wednesday a military source, who intends to remain anonymous, reported Reuters. The same source said the wreck was destroyed in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday "to prevent equipment from falling into the wrong hands." On Wednesday, the Pentagon said the F-15 crew, who participated in actions of the coalition against the regime of Gaddafi, was recovered unharmed.

[Mike Malanaphy]

France destroyed a dozen Libyan armoured vehicles in last 72 hours

Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said French air strikes had destroyed a dozen Libyan armoured vehicles in three days, in an interview Thursday.

"The air exclusion zone has become a reality," Longuet said in the interview with Le Figaro newspaper. "But Resolution 1973 also stipulates that the coalition has all means at its disposal to protect the civilian population."

Coalition forces -- led by France, the United States, and Britain and including other European states along with Qatar -- have launched air strikes in Libya since Saturday, acting under the UN resolution authorising "all necessary means" to protect civilians in Libya.

Longuet said that the real threat to the population "today are the tanks, the artillery.

"The French side has taken out a dozen armoured vehicles in three days," he said. "This is decisive as we have practically not seen any tank concentrations since the strikes."


© 2011 AFP

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/france-destroyed-a-dozen-libyan-armoured-vehicles-minister_137798.html

Those strikes have been centred on Misurata.

16:30: The United States destroyed the wreckage of the F-15 crashed in Libya
The destruction of F-15 fighter that crashed in Libya is due to a mechanical problem, announced Wednesday a military source, who intends to remain anonymous, reported Reuters. The same source said the wreck was destroyed in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday "to prevent equipment from falling into the wrong hands." On Wednesday, the Pentagon said the F-15 crew, who participated in actions of the coalition against the regime of Gaddafi, was recovered unharmed.

Hi Armand,

I don't know if others have asked, but from your screen name are you a Foreign Legion vet?

[Armand2REP]

Hi Armand,

I don't know if others have asked, but from your screen name are you a Foreign Legion vet?

2eme REP, you are the first one to notice that in the last year of several forums I have used this name.

[Armand2REP]

Rafale downs Libyan plane, French air strikes destroys Sabha air base


French fighter jets struck an air base deep inside Libya and shot down one of Muammar Qaddafi’s planes, officials said Thursday, and NATO ships patrolled the coast to block the flow of arms and mercenaries. Other coalition bombers struck artillery, arms depots, and parked helicopters, officials said Thursday.

The French Rafale fighter helping enforce a no-fly zone over Libya destroyed what was identified as a Libyan G-2/Galeb, which is a ground attack aircraft, according to a U.S. official. It happened near the coastal city of Misrata.

In Tripoli, Libyan deputy foreign minister Khaled Kaim said that the “military compound at Juffra” was among the targets hit before dawn. Juffra is one of at least two air bases deep in Libya’s interior, on main routes that lead from neighboring countries in the Sahara region that have been suppliers of arms and fighters for the Qaddafi.

http://online.worldmag.com/2011/03/24/french-jet-downs-libyan-plane-targets-arms-flow/

8-10 Scalp EG were used by 2 Rafale M and 2 M2000-5.

[Armand2REP]

9H. Libya: An artillery battery was destroyed by a Rafale

A French fighter jet destroyed an artillery battery of the Libyan army last night near the city of Ajdabiya, according to Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Chief of Defence Staff, speaking on France- info .

[Mike Malanaphy]

2eme REP, you are the first one to notice that in the last year of several forums I have used this name.

Hi Armand,

I'm shocked, I'm usually the last to know. : ) Happy Cameron Day (April 30).

[Armand2REP]

Hi Armand,

I'm shocked, I'm usually the last to know. : ) Happy Cameron Day (April 30).

Merci... para never surrender

[Armand2REP]

20h50: France destroyed at least five aircraft and two helicopters

The French fighter planes were destroyed on Saturday Misrata "at least" five Galeb combat planes and two combat helicopters MI-35 of the pro-Qaddafi, announced the General Staff of Armed on its website.

In the last 24 hours, "the French aircraft have carried out several strikes in the regions of Zintan and Misrata," said Staff. According to "the first observations," he adds, these strikes have destroyed "in Misrata at least five Galeb combat planes and at least two combat helicopters MI-35 preparing to conduct operations in the region."

[Armand2REP]

French aircraft destroy tanks and ammo depot near Zintan and Misrata

For the 27th March, two patrols Rafale and Mirage 2000D patrol were engaged, followed by a patrol SEM, and a navy patrol Rafale for a reconnaissance mission.

These patrols, both aircraft of the Air Force than the Navy, led strikes on armored vehicles and a large ammunition depot in the regions Misrata and Zintan.

French aircraft lead Arabs in patrols

Moreover, the Qatari and French aircraft operating from the Sude conducted a joint air interdiction and detachment Qatar has completed its rise with the arrival of 4 additional Mirage 2000-5. In total, these are positioned at the Qatari Mirage 2000-5 Sude 6 which are co-located with three French Mirage 2000-5.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-operation-harmattan-n-9

[old_pop2000]

Pentagon officials said that Spooky IIs and A-10s are being used in Libya for ground support.

http://air-attack.com/page/40/AC-130-Gunship.html

These are definitely game changers and nasty weapons. When they arrive and fire, everything dies-friendly or not. I can guarantee you, that the Libyan Army has never faced a Spooky II. There is just no place to hide, when it gets started.:D

[Armand2REP]

Pentagon officials said that Spooky IIs and A-10s are being used in Libya for ground support.

http://air-attack.com/page/40/AC-130-Gunship.html

These are definitely game changers and nasty weapons. When they arrive and fire, everything dies-friendly or not. I can guarantee you, that the Libyan Army has never faced a Spooky II. There is just no place to hide, when it gets started.:D

When did the Pentagon say that? Gadaffi forces still have plenty of Iglas, mobile SAMs, and AAA guns. Bringing those to battle will invite more USAF losses.

[Armand2REP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XASz1fex4Mg

[Warship NWS]

When did the Pentagon say that? Gadaffi forces still have plenty of Iglas, mobile SAMs, and AAA guns. Bringing those to battle will invite more USAF losses.

It is not that easy to bring down a "Spooky" if they are properly supported by other military assets or if engaging less defended targets without quality, or previously suppressed, air defenses. The AC-130s carry a good deal of countermeasure equipment and if you fire an AA gun at it you better hit it on the first short.. as the response may be quite quick and lethal. The downward firing range of the AC-130 weapons can also usually out-range most AA weapons having to fight against gravity by having to fire upwards at a slant range - especially vs the 105mm or 40mm Bofors. Also note that they quite often operate at night and are not very noisy compared to a jet so they are often hard to spot .. at least until they "bring the rain".

It would be good to note that for ALL the missions Spooky type aircraft have flown, and in at times extremely hazardous conditions, for nearly 50 years extremely few have been brought down by enemy fire. A total of 8-10 have been lost by my last count - one due an accident, not enemy fire. That is a pretty darn good track record for a slow moving bird doing aerial donuts for a living.

Thanks.

[old_pop2000]

When did the Pentagon say that? Gadaffi forces still have plenty of Iglas, mobile SAMs, and AAA guns. Bringing those to battle will invite more USAF losses.

They've been using them all weekend. Our only loss was due to mechanical failure, it's just the cost of doing business in war. The Spooks and T-bolts will be fine, they have some tricks up their sleeves to keep safe. With pressurized cabins and other niceties, they can stay up at safe altitudes.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Dennis,

I'm sure the density of weapons is pretty low and your average Libyan radar operator is pretty nervpous about turning his equipment on. It will start to get dicey when the rebels start using captured tanks and other military vehicles to fight against the government. When the forces get intermingled, friendly fire incidents may be an issue. One T-72 looks pretty much like another at night or at high speed.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

I'm sure the density of weapons is pretty low and your average Libyan radar operator is pretty nervpous about turning his equipment on. It will start to get dicey when the rebels start using captured tanks and other military vehicles to fight against the government. When the forces get intermingled, friendly fire incidents may be an issue. One T-72 looks pretty much like another at night or at high speed.

Hi Mike:
This is why I mentioned the problem at the beginning. The Coalition will have to create a no-kill zone around the advancing rebel forces, to prevent fratricide. However, once the Libyan Army gets wind of it, they will close with the rebels and hold on to them to prevent Coalition airstrikes. As you say, one T-72 looks like another, especially at night.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Dennis,

Exactly, though it would be very difficult to do as a practical matter. The rebels are hardly organized and lack even the most basic ability to coordinate and communicate with the new NATO headquarters. NATO armies feature specialized teams to communicate and coordinate air support and even that system is not perfect. Given the lack of military structure and training, simply giving the rebels the equipment would not be enough. To be successful, it would require NATO personnel on the ground. Because of the fluid nature of the conflict, they would need NATO soldiers to accompany them on the ground for security and support. Not sure even France is ready to do that.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

Exactly, though it would be very difficult to do as a practical matter. The rebels are hardly organized and lack even the most basic ability to coordinate and communicate with the new NATO headquarters. NATO armies feature specialized teams to communicate and coordinate air support and even that system is not perfect. Given the lack of military structure and training, simply giving the rebels the equipment would not be enough. To be successful, it would require NATO personnel on the ground. Because of the fluid nature of the conflict, they would need NATO soldiers to accompany them on the ground for security and support. Not sure even France is ready to do that.

Hi Mike:
Without hard training, there is no discipline; without discipline, there is no ability to stand and fight. The lack of command and control, even the rudiments, means an inability to assess intelligence and apply it. I don't see new weapons being of any value without the precursors of discipline through training and C2. Air power does not take and hold ground, only boots on the ground can do that. The tactical situation will ebb and flow from Benghazi along the road to Ras Lanouf and back. All the while, Qaddafi forces will reduce Misrata, and occupy it. There are no real defensive positions for the Rebels to hold and occupy, and they don't have the discipline to be able to accomplish this. Eventually, undisciplined hordes get tired and disgusted, and they quit.

This situation will devolve into a mexican standoff without disciplined forces on the ground. My concern is what will happen, when the first fratricide incident occurs, and it will? These undisciplined hordes will break and run, guaranteed.

[Armand2REP]

France strikes military depot and SAM site

The evening of 29 March was marked by a strike carried out on a military depot located some thirty kilometers south of Tripoli. Two patrols Rafale Air, two patrols and patrolling M 2000D Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) participated in this mission, which was supported and sustained by two C 135 and a Hawkeye . A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

On 30 March a patrol Rafale Air patrol M 2000D, a joint patrol Rafale and Super Etendard modernized (SEM) and a patrol Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) were incurred. During one of these missions some of these devices has made ​​strikes on an antiaircraft missile site located about twenty kilometers south of Sirte. A E3F, two tankers and a C135 Hawkeye were incurred in support of these outputs. A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

From Crete, a patrol of six planes carried out an air interdiction mission. The patrol consisted of two M 2000-5 French and four M 2000-5 Qatar.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-operation-harmattan-n-12

[old_pop2000]

France strikes military depot and SAM site

The evening of 29 March was marked by a strike carried out on a military depot located some thirty kilometers south of Tripoli. Two patrols Rafale Air, two patrols and patrolling M 2000D Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) participated in this mission, which was supported and sustained by two C 135 and a Hawkeye . A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

On 30 March a patrol Rafale Air patrol M 2000D, a joint patrol Rafale and Super Etendard modernized (SEM) and a patrol Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) were incurred. During one of these missions some of these devices has made ​​strikes on an antiaircraft missile site located about twenty kilometers south of Sirte. A E3F, two tankers and a C135 Hawkeye were incurred in support of these outputs. A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

From Crete, a patrol of six planes carried out an air interdiction mission. The patrol consisted of two M 2000-5 French and four M 2000-5 Qatar.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-operation-harmattan-n-12

Don't you mean a"KC-135 Tanker " and an E2C Hawkeye?

[Armand2REP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf2TkKz8rXA

[Mike Malanaphy]

France strikes military depot and SAM site

The evening of 29 March was marked by a strike carried out on a military depot located some thirty kilometers south of Tripoli. Two patrols Rafale Air, two patrols and patrolling M 2000D Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) participated in this mission, which was supported and sustained by two C 135 and a Hawkeye . A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

On 30 March a patrol Rafale Air patrol M 2000D, a joint patrol Rafale and Super Etendard modernized (SEM) and a patrol Super-Etendard modernized (SEM) were incurred. During one of these missions some of these devices has made ​​strikes on an antiaircraft missile site located about twenty kilometers south of Sirte. A E3F, two tankers and a C135 Hawkeye were incurred in support of these outputs. A patrol of Rafale Navy also carried out a reconnaissance mission.

From Crete, a patrol of six planes carried out an air interdiction mission. The patrol consisted of two M 2000-5 French and four M 2000-5 Qatar.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-operation-harmattan-n-12

Hi Armand,

The Super Etendard still soldiers on.....interesting.

[Armand2REP]

Hi Armand,

The Super Etendard still soldiers on.....interesting.

It still soldiers until 2013 when 17F transfers to Rafale M.

[Mike Malanaphy]

It still soldiers until 2013 when 17F transfers to Rafale M.

Hi Armand,

I wonder if the Fleet Air Arm misses their Blackburn Bucaneers from the same era. : )

[Armand2REP]

Well, it finally has happened. NATO aircraft struck a friendly convoy destroying a tank and some trucks with ammo. This isn't going to be the last one of these, just the first.

It wasn't friendly, it was a Gaddafi supply convoy. It killed civilians when the ammo truck exploded sending burn offs all over the village. On a side note, an A-10 was lost in Germany preping for ops in Libya.

[Armand2REP]

Hi Armand,

I wonder if the Fleet Air Arm misses their Blackburn Bucaneers from the same era. : )

I imagine RAF misses anything that can fly off a carrier. Ten years with no carrier flight ops is long enough to make the whole capability redundant.

[Armand2REP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMpBDgnP6QM

[old_pop2000]

It wasn't friendly, it was a Gaddafi supply convoy. It killed civilians when the ammo truck exploded sending burn offs all over the village. On a side note, an A-10 was lost in Germany preping for ops in Libya.

It appears that a friendly convoy was struck by mistake - http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/02/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T2

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Libya_rebels_say_hit_by_coalition_air_strike.html? cid=29899810

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/02/us-libya-idUSTRE7270JP20110402

[Armand2REP]

It appears that a friendly convoy was struck by mistake -

BBC says it was pro-Gaddafi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12931731

[old_pop2000]

BBC says it was pro-Gaddafi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12931731

Sorry, but this article from the same source says different - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12944905

I suggest we wait for better and more complete information, it's far too early in the analysis of the action to be definitive.

[Armand2REP]

Sorry, but this article from the same source says different - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12944905

I suggest we wait for better and more complete information, it's far too early in the analysis of the action to be definitive.

Your news is more recent. On a side note, France hit a car in Al Khums. Was worried it might have been France that hit that convoy but it turns out the wrong place... pheew

[old_pop2000]

Your news is more recent. On a side note, France hit a car in Al Khums. Was worried it might have been France that hit that convoy but it turns out the wrong place... pheew

It really doesn't matter who fired the shots, it's more likely the rebel force was moving into an air attack and simply got caught up in it. At 400 MPH, everything is blur, trust me. No one is at fault. I said at the beginning that this would happen, its the cost of doing business. Again, we need to wait for more analysis of films and data to really see what happened. However, I am going out on a limb and say that it might have been a NATO A-10 by the description of the holes from a reporter. They might have been 30 mm GAO-8 Avenger. If so, it would have been the 52nd Fighter Wing in Germany, IIRC.

[Armand2REP]

France destroyed a dozen armoured vehicles around Sirte and Ras Lanuf

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-operation-harmattan-n-16

[old_pop2000]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42496271/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/