Battle 360

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi:

I don't know if any of you saw the most recent episode of Battle 360. In this installment, the USS Enterprise participates in the battle of the Philippines Sea aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. Pretty good stuff, especially the first hand accounts of the surviving veterans. There are only two shows left, next up Leyte Gulf! Yeah baby, I live for this stuff.

[Kyle Holgate]

Hi:

I don't know if any of you saw the most recent episode of Battle 360. In this installment, the USS Enterprise participates in the battle of the Philippines Sea aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. Pretty good stuff, especially the first hand accounts of the surviving veterans. There are only two shows left, next up Leyte Gulf! Yeah baby, I live for this stuff.

Yep, I caught it and it was fairly well done. I think it was the one before last that irked me most - how they made it look like Enterprise alone stopped the Hiei which was still threatening Henderson field after the night battle. That one almost made me totally give up on the series it was so totally screwed up. They got the facts right in some cases but what they gave would cause someone unfamiliar with the battles to think something completely different than what was true. Hiei was certainly not still closing on Henderson with intent to bombard, and Enterprise did not "save the day" in attacking her.
I rather wonder if some of the events aren't looked over a bit by people intent on making the shows more entertaining even if it sometimes comes at the expense of accuracy?

Overall though, I hope that 360 and Dogfights and others like this can attract interest in WW2 history from younger people. It sometimes seems like most of us amature historians are in their mid 30's and up and few younger seemt to have much interest. Maybe that perception is wrong - I hope it is.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Yep, I caught it and it was fairly well done. I think it was the one before last that irked me most - how they made it look like Enterprise alone stopped the Hiei which was still threatening Henderson field after the night battle. That one almost made me totally give up on the series it was so totally screwed up. They got the facts right in some cases but what they gave would cause someone unfamiliar with the battles to think something completely different than what was true. Hiei was certainly not still closing on Henderson with intent to bombard, and Enterprise did not "save the day" in attacking her.
I rather wonder if some of the events aren't looked over a bit by people intent on making the shows more entertaining even if it sometimes comes at the expense of accuracy?

Overall though, I hope that 360 and Dogfights and others like this can attract interest in WW2 history from younger people. It sometimes seems like most of us amature historians are in their mid 30's and up and few younger seemt to have much interest. Maybe that perception is wrong - I hope it is.

Kyle:

Both of my sons ages 8 and 10 like Dogfights and Battle 360, but I think it's mainly due to the cool graphics. The older boy is fascinated with aircraft, especially modern jets.

[Kyle Holgate]

Kyle:

Both of my sons ages 8 and 10 like Dogfights and Battle 360, but I think it's mainly due to the cool graphics. The older boy is fascinated with aircraft, especially modern jets.

It is had to be very interested in 60 year old prop-job fighters going a bit over 400 MPH when modern ones look so cool and are zipping around at nearly 5x that speed!
I have no problem though - loved the fighters at the Smithsonian... the sleek and lovely spitfire, the somewhat sinister looking 109... sigh, guess I will always have a love for the older girls!

(grr, wish I could copy and paste in thes new forums - so I could spell check!)

[Ed Rotondaro]

It is had to be very interested in 60 year old prop-job fighters going a bit over 400 MPH when modern ones look so cool and are zipping around at nearly 5x that speed!
I have no problem though - loved the fighters at the Smithsonian... the sleek and lovely spitfire, the somewhat sinister looking 109... sigh, guess I will always have a love for the older girls!

(grr, wish I could copy and paste in thes new forums - so I could spell check!)

Kyle:

Spell check would be a nice feature.

[Warship NWS]

Kyle:

Spell check would be a nice feature.

Actually, spell check is available on these forums.. the "ABC with checkmark".. click on it for info.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Actually, spell check is available on these forums.. the "ABC with checkmark".. click on it for info.


Chris:

Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks.

[Kyle Holgate]

Next 360 is tonight - Leyte Gulf!
I think I enjoy watching these as much to pick at the mistakes as to see the grapics. Heh heh, guess I am a Pita to the last breath! Still - as long as Battlestar Galactica is on my on demand channel I'll watch 360 instead.
TGIF!

[Ed Rotondaro]

Next 360 is tonight - Leyte Gulf!
I think I enjoy watching these as much to pick at the mistakes as to see the grapics. Heh heh, guess I am a Pita to the last breath! Still - as long as Battlestar Galactica is on my on demand channel I'll watch 360 instead.
TGIF!

Kyle:

Let's compare notes on this one. It should be fun.

[Kyle Holgate]

This one wasn't too bad. Their CGI videos were a bit screwed up in many places where they'd have the US bombing the southern force for example and show a Yamato class being hit for example, or a Kongo instaed of Fuso or Yamashiro. They also appear to have used CGI clips for the Yamato's destruction to show the sinking of the Musashi - which did not explode with a big mushroom cloud like the Yamato did. Musashi almost went down on an even keel only tipping at the very last. This isn't really a big deal, they got the overal facts right in the nerrative.
The one thing they showed and talked about I wasn't sure of is the multi-color flak bursts. I know that the shells fired at the jeep carriers and escorts were colored to help keep shell spotting from being confused, I had not previously heard that the 5" AA were "color coded".

[Ed Rotondaro]

This one wasn't too bad. Their CGI videos were a bit screwed up in many places where they'd have the US bombing the southern force for example and show a Yamato class being hit for example, or a Kongo instaed of Fuso or Yamashiro. They also appear to have used CGI clips for the Yamato's destruction to show the sinking of the Musashi - which did not explode with a big mushroom cloud like the Yamato did. Musashi almost went down on an even keel only tipping at the very last. This isn't really a big deal, they got the overal facts right in the nerrative.
The one thing they showed and talked about I wasn't sure of is the multi-color flak bursts. I know that the shells fired at the jeep carriers and escorts were colored to help keep shell spotting from being confused, I had not previously heard that the 5" AA were "color coded".

Kyle:

I noticed they used a lot of the same CGI repeatedly (obviously this saves money). Also since this is meant to cover the USS Enterprise, most of the other parts of the battle were given brief coverage. Ont thing I did notice and I think I know why they did it was the lack of kamikazes. Leyte Gulf was the debut of the "Special Attack Forces" as they were called. Since the final episode will cover Okinawa and the struggle against the kamikazes, I think the producers decided to hold off on them.

There were some instances when you would see the Yamato from stern to bow, but it almost looked as if the ship was traveling backwards. I do agree about colored flak, but I have read that certain different calibers had different bursts due mainly to the amount and type of filler. This was very noticeable by US pilots in Viet Nam who could tell by the flash, what caliber shell was being fired. Still it was done well overall.

[Kyle Holgate]

Much of this one was unknown to me. I didn't know that CVN-6 even existed so I was in no place to do any picking at the final episode! I did find it a bit odd that the way the narration went you'd think that the carriers (and Enterprise) fought the Kamikaze aircraft with just AA. They mention cap a few times, but there was no talk of vectoring it to kamikaze attacks. Ironic that the Enterprise gets hit worse right at the end of the war than any time earlier.
The one crew-member that was thinking that it's probably better that Enterprise was scrapped may have been right when I think about it. She should never have been a museum with candy shops and ice cream and what not. If kept as a museum ship she should have been treated more like a cemetary - hollowed ground (or decks). Enough crewmen gave their lives on that ship, after all.

[djcyclone]

Much of this one was unknown to me. I didn't know that CVN-6 even existed so I was in no place to do any picking at the final episode! I did find it a bit odd that the way the narration went you'd think that the carriers (and Enterprise) fought the Kamikaze aircraft with just AA. They mention cap a few times, but there was no talk of vectoring it to kamikaze attacks. Ironic that the Enterprise gets hit worse right at the end of the war than any time earlier.
The one crew-member that was thinking that it's probably better that Enterprise was scrapped may have been right when I think about it. She should never have been a museum with candy shops and ice cream and what not. If kept as a museum ship she should have been treated more like a cemetary - hollowed ground (or decks). Enough crewmen gave their lives on that ship, after all.



That is because CVN-6 did not exsist. You meant CV-6, but the first CVN was 65 being the Enterpirse of today and the first Nuclear surface ship ever constructed. And how did you not know of CV-6? It was the only carrier to start WW II and finish WW II. All of the other Carriers that began WW II where sunk. That is why Star Trek creater Gene Rodenberry decided to use the name Enterprise. He did research into the names of ships and found the Enterprise to be one of the most popular.

[Ed Rotondaro]

That is because CVN-6 did not exsist. You meant CV-6, but the first CVN was 65 being the Enterpirse of today and the first Nuclear surface ship ever constructed. And how did you not know of CV-6? It was the only carrier to start WW II and finish WW II. All of the other Carriers that began WW II where sunk. That is why Star Trek creater Gene Rodenberry decided to use the name Enterprise. He did research into the names of ships and found the Enterprise to be one of the most popular.


DJ:

Saratoga also survived the war as did Ranger:rolleyes: Research, research!

[keschofield]

That is because CVN-6 did not exsist. You meant CV-6, but the first CVN was 65 being the Enterpirse of today and the first Nuclear surface ship ever constructed. And how did you not know of CV-6? It was the only carrier to start WW II and finish WW II. All of the other Carriers that began WW II where sunk. That is why Star Trek creater Gene Rodenberry decided to use the name Enterprise. He did research into the names of ships and found the Enterprise to be one of the most popular.

The section of the show you are referring to is where Enterprise begins specializing in night fighting operations. The show states that she was redesignated CVN-6 with "N" identifying her as having night fighting characteristics.

I had not heard this before, but it makes some sense. Reclassifications happened at an increasing pace from the late WWII period through the early cold war. Remember no one in the period had any inkling that there might be nuclear powered ships some day.

[Warship NWS]

I can only find notes that show the Enterprise being redesignated as CVA (Attack) and CVS (ASW) post war.. but not CVN. Not sure where they got that information from.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I can only find notes that show the Enterprise being redesignated as CVA (Attack) and CVS (ASW) post war.. but not CVN. Not sure where they got that information from.


Chris:

I always thought the N meant nuclear powered?

[Kyle Holgate]

Found this - talks about the Enterprise being a CVN. I still am not convinced - need more proof that she was re-designated as the show said. N quite easily could have meant night first - nuke later.



http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/cardiv7_2.htm

Operations in Preparation for the Occupation of Okinawa
14 March to 22 March 1945

Upon arrival at Ulithi Admiral Gardner became again CTG 58.5, heading a group which consisted of 1 CVN, ENTERPRISE, and screen. This group sortied on 14 March as part of TG 58.4, operating within the latter group's screen until 18 March. The task force steamed toward Kyushu, commencing a high speed run-in the night of 17-18 March. As this final approach was detected by the enemy, TG 58.5 launched night fighters which made 2 kills and 2 probables.

[keschofield]

Chris:

I always thought the N meant nuclear powered?

Hi Ed,

Don't forget that before the 1950's nobody thought of nuclear powered ships so an N designation being used to mean something else is entirely plausible.

Kurt

[Ed Rotondaro]

Found this - talks about the Enterprise being a CVN. I still am not convinced - need more proof that she was re-designated as the show said. N quite easily could have meant night first - nuke later.



http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/cardiv7_2.htm

Operations in Preparation for the Occupation of Okinawa
14 March to 22 March 1945

Upon arrival at Ulithi Admiral Gardner became again CTG 58.5, heading a group which consisted of 1 CVN, ENTERPRISE, and screen. This group sortied on 14 March as part of TG 58.4, operating within the latter group's screen until 18 March. The task force steamed toward Kyushu, commencing a high speed run-in the night of 17-18 March. As this final approach was detected by the enemy, TG 58.5 launched night fighters which made 2 kills and 2 probables.

Kyle:

Interesting data. Good job.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

Don't forget that before the 1950's nobody thought of nuclear powered ships so an N designation being used to mean something else is entirely plausible.

Kurt

Kurt:

That's probably the reason. Especially in light of the link Kyle sent.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Found this - talks about the Enterprise being a CVN. I still am not convinced - need more proof that she was re-designated as the show said. N quite easily could have meant night first - nuke later.



http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/cardiv7_2.htm

Operations in Preparation for the Occupation of Okinawa
14 March to 22 March 1945

Upon arrival at Ulithi Admiral Gardner became again CTG 58.5, heading a group which consisted of 1 CVN, ENTERPRISE, and screen. This group sortied on 14 March as part of TG 58.4, operating within the latter group's screen until 18 March. The task force steamed toward Kyushu, commencing a high speed run-in the night of 17-18 March. As this final approach was detected by the enemy, TG 58.5 launched night fighters which made 2 kills and 2 probables.

Hi Guys,

Check several references and all use that term "designate". Reynold's "Fast Carriers" describes how Buair propsed a night air group on July 5, 1944. Indepence was intially selected and a scratch air group from planes at Pearl were put together for her. Enterpriose was also selected, but would remain a day carrier until the end of her currnet tour on the line. That would give a two carrier night task force by teh end of teh year. Morrision only shows them as carrying a night air group, but no (N) after their names.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Guys,

Check several references and all use that term "designate". Reynold's "Fast Carriers" describes how Buair propsed a night air group on July 5, 1944. Indepence was intially selected and a scratch air group from planes at Pearl were put together for her. Enterpriose was also selected, but would remain a day carrier until the end of her currnet tour on the line. That would give a two carrier night task force by teh end of teh year. Morrision only shows them as carrying a night air group, but no (N) after their names.

Mike:

CVL Independence was the carrier who's night air group spotted Kurita's Center Force turning around and heading back to Leyte. Her report was ignored.