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View Full Version : First AAR on Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich



old_pop2000
06-03-2010, 03:33 PM
Well, I got my Eagle Day game from NWS, the other day. Prompt as usual. Can't say enough about their service. Great.

Briefly, this is an update to the two Talonsoft games of the '90's. Things look the same although the aircraft planforms look similar but more detailed. Some menu's moved around, but that's okay. The old games (I still have them) don't even run setup on Win 7. With my Defending the Reich game, I now have a full set of strategic air force campaign games for Europe.

The first campaign I am running is the one day campaign. This is more of an intro, it has been a long time so this is what I am concentrating on. You win by just accumulating points. The AI seems to be improved, but only a long week or long campaign will tell that.
On a one day campaign, you have to go after something of value. Kenley and Biggin Hill are good targets to head towards. But there are preliminaries missions before setting up the primary missions.

First, you have to run some photographic reconnaissance missions. You can place your mouse pointer over a target and the program will tell you the age of the photos. It's hard to kill a target with 50 day old photos, plus after a mission, you need to get up to date photos of the mission results. So, the first missions should be reconnaissance missions. I ran about two or three at 0600 hrs to 0630. Running these missions early gives the staff time to assess the data and prepare missions. Usually you use one plane or a couple of planes with no escorts. Running them at low altitude works better. Camera's in those days were not all that good and you need to get detail. These missions can be used by a human opponent or the AI as a way of determining your main objective so make a couple of deception runs on targets to deceive your opponent. I am not going to go into detail on mission planning, you are already bored to tears.

My main mission was over 200 bombers sent to Kenley, with as many close and high escorts as a I could assemble. I also sent in a fighter sweep a couple of hours before, but I am not certain it was very effective. Always remember to define a secondary mission objective because weather in England is chancy at best. Give your bombers an alternative target, nearby to hit.

Needless to say, the main mission did stir up a hornet's nest. The end result was good, services at Kenley were damaged, losses on both side were even at 6 aircraft. I won with 35 points to 9 for the British.
Problems to solve:

1. I need to be more careful in planning missions. I should have checked the weather more careully. A bank of clouds over London at 0600 will almost certainly be moving SE and be over SE England by 1100 when the first bomber raids go after the advanced fighter fields like Lympne or Manston. I like to hit those advanced fields early, then send the main bomber force after that.

2. It is always a choice either close escort or high escort. History tells us that fighters need to be above the bombers to have altitude advantage, but if the fighters come in head on, they get the first crack before you can jump them. I use both, when fighters are available. Three squadrons on CE and three 2000 feet above on HE. I can usually keep bomber losses lower. But as the game progresses, you begin to get short of fighters.

I will find more problems to solve in my planning and execution of main campaigns, but for now, attention to detail is important. You have to think three dimensionally. Basically X,Y and Z. You should pay attention to intercept altitudes that occur to plan the next missions accordingly.

Advice:

I don't like to recommend games, however, if you want to try your hand at operational control and planning of strategic bombing campaigns, this is the game to get. It is detailed and can be daunting but no worries. You can let you staff start planning and then take control later. It is not perfect, it is a game. It is not a simple game, there are many factors that must be taken into account, when planning missions and executing a strategy. This game will give force you to think about those factors.

If any of you need help with terminology, strategy etc. I will assist. I've spent the better part of forty years around aircraft and I have had the older game since it was first published. I am more than willing to help you understand so you can enjoy the game. Enjoyment is important. It is a game. If you wish to try bombing Germany or defending against the British strategic bombing, try Defending the Reich. You control Bomber Command in its bombing campaign. You can replace bombers with new types etc. Also, if you are really brave, try War Over Vietnam. This is a great campaign if you wish to try conducting the raids over NV. You actually control individual aircaft groups and planes at an operational level. Another cool game.

Remember to use NWS to buy the games, excellent prices, service and smiling faces.

Christian Schwietzke
06-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Good summary.

Personally, I prefer playing the defenderīs side in both scenarios. Iīm not really good at formulating the sort of complex plans you need to pull off a really successful bomber raid, but I think Iīm pretty good at defending against them. Of course, it helps that the AI isnīt known for its sneakiness.

old_pop2000
06-04-2010, 01:53 PM
Good summary.

Personally, I prefer playing the defenderīs side in both scenarios. Iīm not really good at formulating the sort of complex plans you need to pull off a really successful bomber raid, but I think Iīm pretty good at defending against them. Of course, it helps that the AI isnīt known for its sneakiness.

Hi Christian:

Thanks.
Establishing a bomber offensive and missions isn't really that complicated but you have to keep your objectives in mind and keep checking the damage to ensure attriting his forces. I can help you, if you need it.

old_pop2000
06-14-2010, 02:36 PM
I did some research on the Matrix Forum, about editing the game data to change some things. Apparently, almost all of the information is hard coded and cannot be edited. You can use a hex editor, but that is against the EULA that you acknowledged at installation.

I believe that what you see, is what is going to be available unless there is a large push by gamers to get Matrix to update the game. The designers have said that it is too hard to pull out all that data, to make it accessible. I suspect that the game has gone as far as it is going to go. Anyway, it is still a good game, and fun.

BTW, I started a one week campaign but took heavy losses in Ju-87s just trying to hit Manston and Lympne. However, I still won the turn in points with a heavy raid by He-111s and 2:1 ratio in HL and CE fighter support. I need to remember my techniques from years ago. A good strategy is to have another raid, thirty minutes behind the first, to prevent stragglers from being hit from behind. I can solve that, with timing and more fighters sweeps.

Christian Schwietzke
06-14-2010, 10:34 PM
Good luck about getting that hard push.

Shortly the game was out, I raised the inaccuracies of the European map in the forum - under the impression, with the obsessive amount of historical details in the OOB, theyīd want at least some degree of accuracy elsewhere. Nobody gave a damn, except for those who decided I was a silly whiner and put their energy into flaming me.

old_pop2000
06-14-2010, 10:44 PM
Good luck about getting that hard push.

Shortly the game was out, I raised the inaccuracies of the European map in the forum - under the impression, with the obsessive amount of historical details in the OOB, theyīd want at least some degree of accuracy elsewhere. Nobody gave a damn, except for those who decided I was a silly whiner and put their energy into flaming me.

I sense that no one wants to put much of an effort into really making it a top notch game for posterity. I am enjoying the game and enjoyed the original version. I think this is an example of why game producers have problems. Poor designs and failure to follow up to improve the games so people can edit and adapt them. This is what makes a game last. I suspect that some of these game manufacturers are living on borrowed time.

OTOH, it might be that we, as gamers, are just asking for too much and to get it, will drive up the cost. I think we have been over this point before with NWS. I don't really know the answer or even if there is one. I am glad they updated the game so its does work with Win 7. Something to be said for that, I guess.

Anyway, I am on day 4 of a one week mission and leading in points along with a kill ratio of 42 British aircraft lost to my 22. He is even using Fulmars, Sea Gladiators and Blenheims. Must be getting to him.

Christian Schwietzke
06-15-2010, 10:46 AM
I sense that no one wants to put much of an effort into really making it a top notch game for posterity. I am enjoying the game and enjoyed the original version. I think this is an example of why game producers have problems. Poor designs and failure to follow up to improve the games so people can edit and adapt them. This is what makes a game last. I suspect that some of these game manufacturers are living on borrowed time.

OTOH, it might be that we, as gamers, are just asking for too much and to get it, will drive up the cost. I think we have been over this point before with NWS. I don't really know the answer or even if there is one. I am glad they updated the game so its does work with Win 7. Something to be said for that, I guess.

Anyway, I am on day 4 of a one week mission and leading in points along with a kill ratio of 42 British aircraft lost to my 22. He is even using Fulmars, Sea Gladiators and Blenheims. Must be getting to him.

Iīm not sure Iīm asking all that much. Check the BTR map for yourself. Look west of Frankfurt/Main, where the river makes a sharp turn from running west to running north. Now check out a real map of the region, and youīll notice that this isnīt a sharp turn, this is where the Main river flows into the Rhine. Thatīs right - the Rhine, only the second biggest river on the map, doesnīt exist for half its length. Lake is nowhere near where itīs supposed to be, either, so Friedrichshafen ("hafen" means "port", in case you wonder) is like a hundred miles from the nearest body of water. I could go on an on... plus, many of the German facility names stink, too.

I mean, imagine an American Civil War game done by a bunch of Europeans with a reputation for obsessive accuracy and detail in their games... where the Union capital is called "Wishington CD", half the Missouri river is missing, and New York is an inland city. Thatīs more or less how I feel with BTR.

old_pop2000
06-15-2010, 01:41 PM
Iīm not sure Iīm asking all that much. Check the BTR map for yourself. Look west of Frankfurt/Main, where the river makes a sharp turn from running west to running north. Now check out a real map of the region, and youīll notice that this isnīt a sharp turn, this is where the Main river flows into the Rhine. Thatīs right - the Rhine, only the second biggest river on the map, doesnīt exist for half its length. Lake is nowhere near where itīs supposed to be, either, so Friedrichshafen ("hafen" means "port", in case you wonder) is like a hundred miles from the nearest body of water. I could go on an on... plus, many of the German facility names stink, too.

I mean, imagine an American Civil War game done by a bunch of Europeans with a reputation for obsessive accuracy and detail in their games... where the Union capital is called "Wishington CD", half the Missouri river is missing, and New York is an inland city. Thatīs more or less how I feel with BTR.

Hi Christian:
I can understand your frustration. It's one thing to get some doctrine or tactics wrong, I can understand that. But getting mapping wrong, doesn't make sense. You can just capture the image from Google earth and duplicate that, to get it right.

The worse part is lack of response. We are used to NWS response, which has spoiled us. Again, I don't know the answer, or even if there is one. I know some of the users have modified the maps, then posted them. I suspect, that map mistakes are not high on their list especially for an air power game.

Christian Schwietzke
06-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Hi Christian:
I can understand your frustration. It's one thing to get some doctrine or tactics wrong, I can understand that. But getting mapping wrong, doesn't make sense. You can just capture the image from Google earth and duplicate that, to get it right.

Contrast the map with the insane amounts of research that went into the pilot database, for example - every pilot with a full first name, rather than an initial, was put in there manually, and except for a few individuals which apparently are the names of beta-testers and/or researchers or something (plus Erik Rutins from Matrix Games and Gary Grigsby) they are actual historical pilots from those units. And the map inaccuracies and facility name problems were known at least two years before the new game was published. Both I and another guy even offered to help fix the latter (Iīm German, he was Austrian, so we would have been in a good position to turn some of that gibberish into decent German), back then in Summer ī07, but was turned out.


The worse part is lack of response. We are used to NWS response, which has spoiled us. Some of these forums are downright nasty. But, I shouldn't be too harsh. Business is business, you should know that.

Well, yes, NWSīs response to such things is fabulous. The trouble is, wargamers, grognards in particular, have come to expect attention to historical accuracy, so if your business depends mostly on grognards (because most "mainstream" gamers would never touch War in the Pacific, Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich and such), then "business is business" should not include intentionally alienating those grognards.

old_pop2000
06-15-2010, 02:26 PM
Contrast the map with the insane amounts of research that went into the pilot database, for example - every pilot with a full first name, rather than an initial, was put in there manually, and except for a few individuals which apparently are the names of beta-testers and/or researchers or something (plus Erik Rutins from Matrix Games and Gary Grigsby) they are actual historical pilots from those units. And the map inaccuracies and facility name problems were known at least two years before the new game was published. Both I and another guy even offered to help fix the latter (Iīm German, he was Austrian, so we would have been in a good position to turn some of that gibberish into decent German), back then in Summer ī07, but was turned out.



Well, yes, NWSīs response to such things is fabulous. The trouble is, wargamers, grognards in particular, have come to expect attention to historical accuracy, so if your business depends mostly on grognards (because most "mainstream" gamers would never touch War in the Pacific, Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich and such), then "business is business" should not include intentionally alienating those grognards.

Hi Christian:
I would agree that games like WIP and Eagle Day are so detailed that dedicated gamers or grognards are the typical addressees. They typically want historical accuracy. Since I have never designed and produced a game, I can't say how much work it takes, but I suspect quite a lot. But it seems to me, that they were offered free help from you and your friends who were better placed to get accuracy into the maps.

Was the poor response from Matrix developers, or just some of the others who assist? It's hard to believe that developers and company managers would allow such behavior, knowing that their existance depends on people like yourself. Anyway, back to the fun with the games.

BTW, I've just started reading a new book titled "Castles, Battles & Bombs: How economics explains Military History" . The book was written to explain military history using economic theory; namely neo-classical economic theory. The idea, apparently is that modern historiography doesn't have underlying methodology with which to study history or explain how military history proceeded. This is an attempt, to use the neo-classical economic principles to explain it. I've just started but it is interesting. I just finished Niall Ferguson's "The Ascent of Money". It was excellent, but I will have to reread it, to fully understand everything.

ksbearski
06-26-2010, 03:28 AM
Hi Dennis-

HPS has three operational level air campaign games you might try. "Defending the Reich" is similar to the "Eagle Day..." title, the difference is you can either play the RAF side and conduct your night bombing campaign against the Reich or you can play the Luftwaffe night fighter force. They also have a Vietnam air war title and a Middle Eastern one as well. I own the DTR title and the original BoB and BtR, so obviously I am interested in WW2 strategic and operational level air warfare titles, so I can not comment on the other two, more recent epoch titles. just thought I'd throw those out there if you wanted to fight the Nam or Arab Israeli air campaigns.

Barry
aka ksbearski

old_pop2000
06-26-2010, 08:07 PM
Hi Dennis-

HPS has three operational level air campaign games you might try. "Defending the Reich" is similar to the "Eagle Day..." title, the difference is you can either play the RAF side and conduct your night bombing campaign against the Reich or you can play the Luftwaffe night fighter force. They also have a Vietnam air war title and a Middle Eastern one as well. I own the DTR title and the original BoB and BtR, so obviously I am interested in WW2 strategic and operational level air warfare titles, so I can not comment on the other two, more recent epoch titles. just thought I'd throw those out there if you wanted to fight the Nam or Arab Israeli air campaigns.

Barry
aka ksbearski

Thanks, Barry. I have Defending the Reich and War Over Vietnam. I don't have the Arab-Israeli Air Campaigns. I probably should reload and get back to them. I will have to purchase the latter from NWS.