Another Light Plane Crash

[old_pop2000]

Well, a day without a plane crash in San Diego, is like a day without sunshine. We had another one. Here's the story and a picture. I go down that road almost every day, and so does my son since the main Cox repair center is nearby.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/02/plane-down-near-gillespie-field-runway/

Amazing that the city with such good weather, should have so many plane crashes. :p

Seems that all our aircraft are in 'first crash' condition around here. Funny thing is, we drive that way also. Amazing, and we give them pilot's licenses.

[john964]

Well, a day without a plane crash in San Diego, is like a day without sunshine. We had another one. Here's the story and a picture. I go down that road almost every day, and so does my son since the main Cox repair center is nearby.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/02/plane-down-near-gillespie-field-runway/

Amazing that the city with such good weather, should have so many plane crashes. :p

Seems that all our aircraft are in 'first crash' condition around here. Funny thing is, we drive that way also. Amazing, and we give them pilot's licenses.According to the FAA and NTSB the most common causes of small aircraft accidents are pilot error and maintainace. Pilot error is usally associated with the pilot out flying there experence level.

We also had a aircraft accident yesterday. A R-22 Helocopter crashed the only death was the pilot who was a student on a solo flight.

[old_pop2000]

According to the FAA and NTSB the most common causes of small aircraft accidents are pilot error and maintainace. Pilot error is usally associated with the pilot out flying there experence level.

We also had a aircraft accident yesterday. A R-22 Helocopter crashed the only death was the pilot who was a student on a solo flight.

Hi John:
That's a real shame, but it happens. I've checked and that is correct. Pilot error is the biggest cause and maintenance is second. I've been in aircraft maintenance and you need to be careful and precise. No mistakes, no shortcuts everything by the book and checklist. It's the only way to fly.

[old_pop2000]

Well, another light plane down. This time a twin engined light plane leaving Oceanside Airport had engine trouble and turned about to return. Alas, he did not make it and crashed near the Hwy 76 freeway. No survivors and a nice fire. I suspect he did not shut off the fuel switches because I saw a trail of fuel from the plane on the video feed. At low altitude, engine loss in a twin engined plane can be catastrophic if you don't have time or altitude to correct the yaw effect and increase power on the good engine.

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/oceanside/8e9e2c04-99aa-11df-902b-001cc4c03286.html

What a waste:mad:

[Christian Schwietzke]

Well, another light plane down. This time a twin engined light plane leaving Oceanside Airport had engine trouble and turned about to return. Alas, he did not make it and crashed near the Hwy 76 freeway. No survivors and a nice fire. I suspect he did not shut off the fuel switches because I saw a trail of fuel from the plane on the video feed. At low altitude, engine loss in a twin engined plane can be catastrophic if you don't have time or altitude to correct the yaw effect and increase power on the good engine.

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/oceanside/8e9e2c04-99aa-11df-902b-001cc4c03286.html

What a waste:mad:

It seems to me, every problem is worse on an airplane at low altitude - high enough to fall hard, but too low to get the time to properly react to a problem.

[old_pop2000]

It seems to me, every problem is worse on an airplane at low altitude - high enough to fall hard, but too low to get the time to properly react to a problem.

Hi Christian:

The problem is one of instinct. One of the major issues just after takeoff is the lack of air speed. The optimal method is to stay low after takeoff, gaining air speed then gradually pull back on the stick to gain altitude. Unfortunately, with many airports near residential areas, that isn't possible or legal. You have to begin climbing immediately. This is fine under normal circumstances, but if you lose an engine, there is an instinct to immediately turn sharply to return to the airport. This can be fatal, since increasing turn rate, loses airspeed and this is exactly what you don't want to do. In fact, the FAA has a brochure stating in bold letters, that turning to return to the runway is the worst possible decision. It is directed at single engined aircraft, but in a twin engine, if you lose an engine, you are now a single engined aircraft. You have to think about this, prior to taking off. What am I going to do. It might be better to just land the plane the best you can, and lose the plane. You need about 1000 feet to even consider returning to the airport. In fact, without a couple of thousand feet, its better to start looking for a soft place to set down, cut the fuel switches and the engines, glide in with the props stationary. This is a cultural thing, as most instructors and airline pilots are taught to immediately return to the airport not realizing that this has been the source of failure and loss of life in many NTSB investigations. This is why most airports need runoff areas and empty ground around the airfield for just such an emergency.

There is one more factor in this accident. While the pilot was a retired United air lines pilot, he was 83 years old. I can't believe NTSB won't consider this, a major contributing factor. It's possible that in this case, his airline pilot training worked against him.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Hi Christian:

It is directed at single engined aircraft, but in a twin engine, if you lose an engine, you are now a single engined aircraft.

You are also in an unbalanced (not sure if this is the proper term) single engine aircraft, i.e. one where the only working engine is not on that aircraft´s centerline; that has to be another difficulty.

[old_pop2000]

You are also in an unbalanced (not sure if this is the proper term) single engine aircraft, i.e. one where the only working engine is not on that aircraft´s centerline; that has to be another difficulty.

Hi Christian:
That is one of major issues with a twin engined aircraft. If you lose one engine, you are now in an asymetrric thrust condition. To maintain altitude and airspeed, you have decrease power on that lone engine, and drop the nose to maintain flight balance and control, but at low altitude that is not an option. The control issues and principles of relieving the problem are addressed in many videos and articles. It is not always an easy problem to solve. Each situation can be different.

It boils down to this set of tasks:

Take care of the dead engine
Take care of the good engine
Find a place to land
Go there

In recent years, manufacturers have helped by making engines counter-rotating. The left engine rotates to the right and the right engine rotates to the left. It helps in maintaining balance in flight with the loss of one engine. . This eliminates the left engine being the "critical engine" problem.

It's entirely possible, that a fuel problem affected both engines, most military aircraft have two separate fuel systems but I don't know about private aircraft like a Cessna or a Beech.

[old_pop2000]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/02/report-plane-crash-golf-course/

How about that! One of the best cities in the US for flying, with no weather to speak of, and we can't seem to take off and land without crashing. I am depressed. :eek:

*Watch the skies, keep watching the skies*:p

[keschofield]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/02/report-plane-crash-golf-course/

How about that! One of the best cities in the US for flying, with no weather to speak of, and we can't seem to take off and land without crashing. I am depressed. :eek:

*Watch the skies, keep watching the skies*:p

With all due respect to the families involved in this crash, I think many private plane crashes are a result of poor pilot skills. If you have enough money, you get the best of everything. But when it comes to flying, just because a person can afford to buy a plane and has gotten a license, physics stills rules the day and tests everyone equally. You pass - you fly; you fail - you crash. Size of the bankbook doesn't matter.

[Warship NWS]

I agree with Kurt. It is bad enough that driving a car offers a slim margin of error traveling on the ground at 65+mph.. flying a plane at 100+mph or more and then adding in gravity offers an even slimmer margin of error. I just hope pilot errors don't end up costing peoples lives on the ground as usually happens with car crashes.

[old_pop2000]

With all due respect to the families involved in this crash, I think many private plane crashes are a result of poor pilot skills. If you have enough money, you get the best of everything. But when it comes to flying, just because a person can afford to buy a plane and has gotten a license, physics stills rules the day and tests everyone equally. You pass - you fly; you fail - you crash. Size of the bankbook doesn't matter.

Hi Kurt:
I agree that money isn't always the problem. It's easy to get a license to fly a plane. It's a little harder to get an instrument rating and multi-engine rating. The problem is emergency training. Most private pilots, that are not military or transport pilots, do not have the continuous training and updating in emergency procedures. Any one can fly a plane under perfect conditions. The situation gets dicey when problems such as mechanical failure, weather conditions or even crowded skies cause unforseen issues. That's what gets you and your passengers killed. We need more thorough training and frequent updates to that training. We also need to have a requirement to frequently work through simulators to rehearse how to deal with certain issues that I listed. Some of these pilots are people, that I would not give a drivers license to, they are that stupid.

However, to fair, NTSB stats show a 6.8 to 7% accident rate per 100,000 flight hours with a 1.33 to 1.55 fatality rate; that is for general aviation. That's pretty good, actually. It's probably safer to fly in a private aircraft than to drive a car.

[asnrobert]

With all due respect to the families involved in this crash, I think many private plane crashes are a result of poor pilot skills. If you have enough money, you get the best of everything. But when it comes to flying, just because a person can afford to buy a plane and has gotten a license, physics stills rules the day and tests everyone equally. You pass - you fly; you fail - you crash. Size of the bankbook doesn't matter.

Good point. I remember when I was a kid, Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was killed while practicing takeoffs and landings with his Cessna jet (with an instructor onboard). Later, his wife sued Cessna (as if they were to blame for his error! :rolleyes: ).

And then of course, there was JFK Jr.

[john964]

Good point. I remember when I was a kid, Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was killed while practicing takeoffs and landings with his Cessna jet (with an instructor onboard). Later, his wife sued Cessna (as if they were to blame for his error! :rolleyes: ).

And then of course, there was JFK Jr.

IIRC JFK Jr was flying in conditions he was not rated for IIRC he did not have IFR he only had VFR ad he suffered from spatial disorentation.

According to the FAA and NTSB, 70% of all general aviation accidents are from pilot error, mostly from flying out side the pilots training and lack of proper maintance of the aircraft.

[old_pop2000]

IIRC JFK Jr was flying in conditions he was not rated for IIRC he did not have IFR he only had VFR ad he suffered from spatial disorentation.

According to the FAA and NTSB, 70% of all general aviation accidents are from pilot error, mostly from flying out side the pilots training and lack of proper maintance of the aircraft.

Actually, the airports reported visibility of 5 to 8 miles but with a haze. The forecast for the flight was VFR, so in fact, he was qualified for that. Contributing factors were a dark night, haze and spatial disorientation resulting from those conditions. It was pilot error, as you have said. He made a series of left and right turns with varying descent rates, climbing in between. However, the last right turn was at 4700 FPM. It was in that turn that he struck the water. It would seem that he was attempting to get below the haze to find the runway.

I agree that most general aviation accidents are pilot error due mostly to poor training, or lack of hours in the seat. Maintenance is an issue also.

[old_pop2000]

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

I thought some of you might find this page interesting. A couple of interesting figures. Notice that overall, pilot error seems to be about the same statistically. However, pilot error due to weather is increasing slightly. Seems our training improvements over the years, hasn't really made that much difference. Mechanical failures seem to be on the rise, but that might be due to older aircraft still in service or simply aircraft manufacturers not really putting much into safety of flight issues.

Takeoff and landings are still the percentage leader in accidents, which is expected. Fascinating that loading and unloading is ranked with takeoff. Someone on the ground isn't paying attention, it appears. Airline travel is still the safety leader, general aviation is, as we expected, not the safest mode of flight.

Nothing in this information that we hadn't expected, but interesting none the less.

[old_pop2000]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/02/report-plane-crash-golf-course/

How about that! One of the best cities in the US for flying, with no weather to speak of, and we can't seem to take off and land without crashing. I am depressed. :eek:

*Watch the skies, keep watching the skies*:p

Well, the news on the family in the second plane crash isn't good. Three children are in serious condition, mother dead, pilot in a coma.

Someone has got to explain to me why these pilots keep trying to get these aircraft back to the runway. This pilot was flying an experimental aircraft and reports are that it was teeter tottering but controllable. The plane was a kit, built by the pilot, and had been flying for a year without mishap. The golf course where he crashed after hitting his left wing on a pole attempting to turn back to the airfield, is Admiral Baker, which is ESE from the end of the runway. There is nothing but empty fields in the area. Apparently he radioed to Montgomery tower that he had lost a door. This would be classified as pilot error with a contribution by mechanical failure.

Sorry, but those kids and mother trusted that pilot to get them back to Arizona. Set the stupid airplane down quietly, don't try to get back to the runway. The plane isn't as important as those kids and mothers lives.

[old_pop2000]

Well another pilot has engine problems, and tried to get back to Phoenix airport and.... you guessed it, didn't make it and hit a pest control warehouse. The aircraft was a single engined Cirrus SR-22. I am going to research safety instructions for pilots, somehow. I really want to know what they are teaching. Anyone out there who is a private pilot, please enlighten this old man. I've been around aircraft for over fifty years and I don't understand it.

Addendum:

I've been examining air safety documents, one especially from the AOPA or air safety foundation on emergency procedures.

The first paragraph is lead by an interesting statement; Practice, planning and good judgment can improve odds tremendously, but despite our best intentions, sometimes things just go wrong.
The article is general in nature, as the emergency procedures for each aircraft might be different. The basic assessments are simple; What's wrong, how critical is it and how much time do I have. Engine failures just after takeoff and oxygen failures at 25,000 feet are failures that require a pilot to be "spring loaded". They speak of significant training time being devoted to them and immediate responses should be practiced regularly and briefed prior to departure. As far as engine failures, their comment is that engines normally give "hints about its poor health in the hours leading up to the failure". Their best comment is that engines can cease at any moment, proceed on the assumptioin that the engine can and will fail, head for the nearest airport and be prepared for a forced landing.

[old_pop2000]

Unfortunately, one of the children in the plane crash this week at the Admiral Baker Golf Course has been declared brain dead. Here is the article. The missing door was found.

http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=12932139

My sorrow is only exceeded by my outrage at this accident. Had the pilot latched the door, it probably would not have come off. NTSB will determine that. :(