"The Battle of the River Plate A Grand Delusion"

[Smiffy]

"The Battle of the River Plate A Grand Delusion" by Richard Woodman, pub. Pen & SWord, 2008.


Another book on the "Admiral Graf Spee"???



I do recommend this book. Woodman writes with an exciting narrative style without compromising historical fact and brings an insight into Langsdorff and Harwood’s actions that only an experienced Master Mariner, such as himself, could.



Given Langsdorff’s tendency to confide in his prisoners rather than his senior officers, Woodman believes that Langsdorff was a victim of "the loneliness of command". Langsdorff’s exec, Kapitan sur See Kay, was, of course, his equal in rank, and his gunnery officer, Ascher, was a Fregattenkapitan, no doubt with ambitions of their own, it would not have been easy for Langsdorff to have confided in them. Langsdorff was an excellent practitioner of cruiser warfare, he knew that to engage enemy warships was not worth the risk, a raider must avoid damage in order to be effective and the disruption to enemy shipping that a raider can cause is often more damaging to the enemy’s economy than the actual loss of tonnage. Woodman contends that Langsdorff’s officers did not see things that way, they wanted to fight warships, which is why, knowing that the Plate would be his last hunting ground before returning home, Langsdorff announced his intention of taking on the next Allied warship he came across.



As for the battle and its aftermath, again Woodman puts the emphasis on the mental rather than the material. Harwood and his captains were products of the Royal Navy’s education system that had trained them since boyhood in just what was expected of them and their ships. Their solutions to tactical problems were aggressive solutions. Lansdorff’s education had been far more political. National, and Nazi, prestige was all important, defeat must be avoided, or, if it couldn’t be avoided, then it must be a glorious defeat. Woodman pinpoints the critical instant of the battle, as the moment when Exeter ceased firing. Langsdorff then expected the two light cruisers to break off the action before he destroyed them both, but when Harwood’s ships came at him "like destroyers," Langsdorff could only assume, with his German training, that they were supported by heavier units that he could not yet see. To a German officer it was not conceivable that two light cruisers would make a torpedo attack in daylight on a Panzerschiff without heavy units in support. So Langsdorff turned away, believing that HMS "Renown" was just over the horizon.



Once the British disinformation effort began, its reports fell on fertile ground as Langsdorff was already convinced that British heavy units were off the Plate waiting for him. So convinced were they that one German office actually claimed to have seen "Renown’s" tripod mast from the "Graf Spee’s" main director.



I won’t tell you how it ends, don’t want to spoil it.:)



Side note: Harwood’s "Enemy in sight" signal was sent at 0946. It was picked up by HMS "Cumberland" in Port Stanley in a garbled form, however Captain Fallowfield realized what it was and ordered his ship to sea, despite the fact that half the boilers were stripped down for cleaning, she was underway at 1000.

[Ed Rotondaro]

"The Battle of the River Plate A Grand Delusion" by Richard Woodman, pub. Pen & SWord, 2008.


Another book on the "Admiral Graf Spee"???



I do recommend this book. Woodman writes with an exciting narrative style without compromising historical fact and brings an insight into Langsdorff and Harwood’s actions that only an experienced Master Mariner, such as himself, could.



Given Langsdorff’s tendency to confide in his prisoners rather than his senior officers, Woodman believes that Langsdorff was a victim of "the loneliness of command". Langsdorff’s exec, Kapitan sur See Kay, was, of course, his equal in rank, and his gunnery officer, Ascher, was a Fregattenkapitan, no doubt with ambitions of their own, it would not have been easy for Langsdorff to have confided in them. Langsdorff was an excellent practitioner of cruiser warfare, he knew that to engage enemy warships was not worth the risk, a raider must avoid damage in order to be effective and the disruption to enemy shipping that a raider can cause is often more damaging to the enemy’s economy than the actual loss of tonnage. Woodman contends that Langsdorff’s officers did not see things that way, they wanted to fight warships, which is why, knowing that the Plate would be his last hunting ground before returning home, Langsdorff announced his intention of taking on the next Allied warship he came across.



As for the battle and its aftermath, again Woodman puts the emphasis on the mental rather than the material. Harwood and his captains were products of the Royal Navy’s education system that had trained them since boyhood in just what was expected of them and their ships. Their solutions to tactical problems were aggressive solutions. Lansdorff’s education had been far more political. National, and Nazi, prestige was all important, defeat must be avoided, or, if it couldn’t be avoided, then it must be a glorious defeat. Woodman pinpoints the critical instant of the battle, as the moment when Exeter ceased firing. Langsdorff then expected the two light cruisers to break off the action before he destroyed them both, but when Harwood’s ships came at him "like destroyers," Langsdorff could only assume, with his German training, that they were supported by heavier units that he could not yet see. To a German officer it was not conceivable that two light cruisers would make a torpedo attack in daylight on a Panzerschiff without heavy units in support. So Langsdorff turned away, believing that HMS "Renown" was just over the horizon.



Once the British disinformation effort began, its reports fell on fertile ground as Langsdorff was already convinced that British heavy units were off the Plate waiting for him. So convinced were they that one German office actually claimed to have seen "Renown’s" tripod mast from the "Graf Spee’s" main director.



I won’t tell you how it ends, don’t want to spoil it.:)



Side note: Harwood’s "Enemy in sight" signal was sent at 0946. It was picked up by HMS "Cumberland" in Port Stanley in a garbled form, however Captain Fallowfield realized what it was and ordered his ship to sea, despite the fact that half the boilers were stripped down for cleaning, she was underway at 1000.


Smiffy:

Interesting, definitely worth a read. Thanks!

[Mart]

Hi Smiffy

The book sounds interesting, though it does seem to fly in the face of nearly all the other evidence about Langsdorff, and indeed about the competence of the tactics of the RN at the battle.

I'm afraid I'm inclined to be a little sceptical. No disrespect meant to you, of course. I just think the author has some major issues wrong. There have been several good books on the subject, and the picture that comes across, of Langsdorff, and his decision-making, is quite different.

Sounds like this one might be a good thread for debate.

Thanks Smiffy. I'm afraid I can't read the book myself, but I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

All the best

Martin :)

[Smiffy]

It was ironic that Harwood should have commanded the British squadron. As a junior staff officer at the Admiralty, at the time of the first appearance of the Panzerschiffs, he had been tasked with developing tactics to defeat them. Especial thought was given to engaging with inferior forces as it was thought that the Panzerschiffs would be used primarily as commerce raiders and therefore they were more likely to be engaged by cruisers than battleships.

I am currently reading the account given by Captain Dove of the "Africa Shell" of his time in captivity aboard "Graf Spee". Dove obviously liked Langsdorff and you can see why Langsdorff enjoyed Dove's company. He had some incredible "sea stories" to tell. Of obvious interest to Langsdorff would have been Dove's eye-witness account of the "Emden's" raid on Penang in 1914. Dove had been an apprentice aboard a British merchantman in the harbour during von Muller's attack. Woodman draws heavily on both Dove's published account and the unpublished reports of the other British prisoners.

It is important to remember that Richard Woodman is a professional seaman of great experience and his interpretation of a captain's actions is backed by a lifetime at sea and many years in command. It is not meant as a scholarly work such as Eric Grove's "The Price of Disobedience," rather a brief and concise narrative account of the first major naval action of WW2.

I wouldn't say it flies in the face of other accounts but it is looked at from a different perspective.

[Mart]

Hi Smiffy

Notice you are. like me, from the east of the UK. Well, you obviously tread the Bash Street Kids, same as I did!

Any - The Plate. Did you see the BBC (I think) documentary about the battle, and about Langsdorrff, the ship, its exploits, and the political repercussions for our first big naval win of the war. Groves contributed, as did other experts, but most importantly there were also incredibly moving stories from relatives of various kinds. It was a most amazing story, well told. I was really moved by it.

Cheers,

Martin :)

[Smiffy]

Hi Smiffy

Notice you are. like me, from the east of the UK. Well, you obviously tread the Bash Street Kids, same as I did!

Any - The Plate. Did you see the BBC (I think) documentary about the battle, and about Langsdorrff, the ship, its exploits, and the political repercussions for our first big naval win of the war. Groves contributed, as did other experts, but most importantly there were also incredibly moving stories from relatives of various kinds. It was a most amazing story, well told. I was really moved by it.

Cheers,

Martin :)

I haven't seen it, but, tomorrow 14 April there is a documentary about it on the History Channel at 1100.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I haven't seen it, but, tomorrow 14 April there is a documentary about it on the History Channel at 1100.


Smiffy:

Is that AM or PM? I have to watch that.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Smiffy

Notice you are. like me, from the east of the UK. Well, you obviously tread the Bash Street Kids, same as I did!

Any - The Plate. Did you see the BBC (I think) documentary about the battle, and about Langsdorrff, the ship, its exploits, and the political repercussions for our first big naval win of the war. Groves contributed, as did other experts, but most importantly there were also incredibly moving stories from relatives of various kinds. It was a most amazing story, well told. I was really moved by it.

Cheers,

Martin :)

Martin:

Hey no code words here. You have to educate us Yanks. What exactly are the Bash Street Kids?

[clacton2]

Martin:

Hey no code words here. You have to educate us Yanks. What exactly are the Bash Street Kids?

Ed,
They are characters in a kids comic, the "Beano".
Have just ordered a copy of "The Battle of the River Plate - A Grand Delusion" by Richard Woodman from my local library, and following this discussion am looking forward to reading it. I will let you know my thoughts on it afterwards.
The documentary is on the History Channel over here in the U.K. at 11.00am tomorrow 14th April.
Cheers
Jon:)

[Mart]

Martin:

Hey no code words here. You have to educate us Yanks. What exactly are the Bash Street Kids?

Ed Rotondaro!

Shame on you!

I know who Homer Simpson, Superdog, and Mr. MXYZPTLK are! How come you never heard of the Bash Street Kids or Desperate Dan (who has chin rubble that would fell trees, and eats "Cow-pie")?

Martin :D

PS. If you don't know who Dan Dare is, then you're past saving. Ha!

[Smiffy]

Smiffy:

Is that AM or PM? I have to watch that.

That's AM , but I see that it's also on tonight at 2200, however that will be the UK version of the History Channel.

[asnrobert]

Ed Rotondaro!

Shame on you!

I know who Homer Simpson, Superdog, and Mr. MXYZPTLK are! How come you never heard of the Bash Street Kids or Desperate Dan (who has chin rubble that would fell trees, and eats "Cow-pie")?

Martin :D

PS. If you don't know who Dan Dare is, then you're past saving. Ha!

I guess it's because American culture is more pervasive than British culture. (I do know who Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "bouquet") is :D )

[Smiffy]

I guess it's because American culture is more pervasive than British culture. (I do know who Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "bouquet") is :D )

My favourite show on American TV is the Canadian "Red Green Show". I believe there was an attempt to show it in the UK but the Heath and Safety people said, "No".

[Mart]

I guess it's because American culture is more pervasive than British culture. (I do know who Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "bouquet") is :D )

We've come along way from The River Plate, but you can be sure that if Hyacynth ("the lady of the house speaking") Bucket was there, she'd DEFINITELY have gone in and got Langsdorff out!

"All this nonsense. What does he think he's playing at, Richard. You can't even have a decent battle between respectable people these days. Obviously the wrong sort, if you want my opinion"

:D

Martin

[Ed Rotondaro]

I guess it's because American culture is more pervasive than British culture. (I do know who Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "bouquet") is :D )

Robert:

If you know who Hyacinth is you are a pro. Excellent show in my opinion. How about "the Good Life"? with Felicity Kendall eh? Lovely bit of stuff she is.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Smiffy

The book sounds interesting, though it does seem to fly in the face of nearly all the other evidence about Langsdorff, and indeed about the competence of the tactics of the RN at the battle.

I'm afraid I'm inclined to be a little sceptical. No disrespect meant to you, of course. I just think the author has some major issues wrong. There have been several good books on the subject, and the picture that comes across, of Langsdorff, and his decision-making, is quite different.

Sounds like this one might be a good thread for debate.

Thanks Smiffy. I'm afraid I can't read the book myself, but I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

All the best

Martin :)

Hi guys,

I have Woodman's books on the Artic and Malta convoys and they are both excellent works, so I'm looking forward to his book on the Graf Spee. It will be intersting to see what influence his officer's may have had on him. He chose to engage Harwood when he could have slipped away. I know Harwood's ships were misidentified as two destroyers and a cruiser initally. Given his slow firing main armament and 5-6 knot speed deficit, chasing them seems hardly worth the risk unless he thought a convoy was just over the horizon. I would suspeect that the presence of destroyers is much more a indication that a capital ship or aircraft carrier were near.

As far as we know, Langsdorff took no one into his confidence before his suicide.

[Ed Rotondaro]

We've come along way from The River Plate, but you can be sure that if Hyacynth ("the lady of the house speaking") Bucket was there, she'd DEFINITELY have gone in and got Langsdorff out!

"All this nonsense. What does he think he's playing at, Richard. You can't even have a decent battle between respectable people these days. Obviously the wrong sort, if you want my opinion"

:D

Martin

Martin:

Ohh you witty Brits, whatever shall we do with you? Remember your kingdom inflicted us with the "Young Ones" (still a personal favorite of mine).

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
They are characters in a kids comic, the "Beano".
Have just ordered a copy of "The Battle of the River Plate - A Grand Delusion" by Richard Woodman from my local library, and following this discussion am looking forward to reading it. I will let you know my thoughts on it afterwards.
The documentary is on the History Channel over here in the U.K. at 11.00am tomorrow 14th April.
Cheers
Jon:)

Jon:

Thanks. The thing I love the most about the forums is the learning more about the world around me.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed Rotondaro!

Shame on you!

I know who Homer Simpson, Superdog, and Mr. MXYZPTLK are! How come you never heard of the Bash Street Kids or Desperate Dan (who has chin rubble that would fell trees, and eats "Cow-pie")?

Martin :D

PS. If you don't know who Dan Dare is, then you're past saving. Ha!

Martin:

Isn't Dan Dare the Captain of Tomorrow? I believe that Michael Moorcook the esteemed British sci-fi and heroic fantasy author wrote some of the stories for that comic. Parry that old man!

[Mart]

Martin:

Isn't Dan Dare the Captain of Tomorrow? I believe that Michael Moorcook the esteemed British sci-fi and heroic fantasy author wrote some of the stories for that comic. Parry that old man!

OK. You're let off

:)

[Smiffy]

Hi guys,

I have Woodman's books on the Artic and Malta convoys and they are both excellent works, so I'm looking forward to his book on the Graf Spee. It will be intersting to see what influence his officer's may have had on him. He chose to engage Harwood when he could have slipped away. I know Harwood's ships were misidentified as two destroyers and a cruiser initally. Given his slow firing main armament and 5-6 knot speed deficit, chasing them seems hardly worth the risk unless he thought a convoy was just over the horizon. I would suspeect that the presence of destroyers is much more a indication that a capital ship or aircraft carrier were near.

As far as we know, Langsdorff took no one into his confidence before his suicide.

Langsdorff was expecting to find a small convoy, after reading the Shipping Report in a newspaper found aboard his last prize. I believe he took the "cruiser and two destroyers" to be the convoy escort.

[asnrobert]

Robert:

If you know who Hyacinth is you are a pro. Excellent show in my opinion. How about "the Good Life"? with Felicity Kendall eh? Lovely bit of stuff she is.

I think I've seen that show a time or two. Another Brit show I like is "Waiting for God." And i have all of John Cleese's "Fawlty Towers" episodes on DVD.

[john964]

For British TV I like Are you Being Served, Red Dwarf, Dads Army, Danger UXB, Hello Hello, All of the Doctor Who's, Faulty Towers, Britis Empire, and Keeping up apperances. Oh almost forgot Monty Python.

[Mart]

Do I detect two completely different conversations going on at the same time here? I warn you now that, though I know nothing about naval history, or armour-plating, I am an expert on Blackadder - so watch out! :D

Cheers

Martin

[asnrobert]

For British TV I like Are you Being Served, Red Dwarf, Dads Army, Danger UXB, Hello Hello, All of the Doctor Who's, Faulty Towers, Britis Empire, and Keeping up apperances. Oh almost forgot Monty Python.

I saw Danger UXB on Masterpiece Theater back in the early eighties. Probably the only time I actually watched that show.:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

I think I've seen that show a time or two. Another Brit show I like is "Waiting for God." And i have all of John Cleese's "Fawlty Towers" episodes on DVD.

Robert:

"Fawlty Towers" is superbly funny, and one my dad's favorites.

[Ed Rotondaro]

For British TV I like Are you Being Served, Red Dwarf, Dads Army, Danger UXB, Hello Hello, All of the Doctor Who's, Faulty Towers, Britis Empire, and Keeping up apperances. Oh almost forgot Monty Python.

John:

I've never seen Rd Dwarf or Dad's Army. I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Do I detect two completely different conversations going on at the same time here? I warn you now that, though I know nothing about naval history, or armour-plating, I am an expert on Blackadder - so watch out! :D

Cheers

Martin

Martin:

I think I saw one episode of that, but must have not been in a receptive mood, since it didn't make much of an impression on me. I know that it is highly regarded.

[Mart]

Martin:

I think I saw one episode of that, but must have not been in a receptive mood, since it didn't make much of an impression on me. I know that it is highly regarded.

Hmmmphh! :(

[Mart]

Martin:

I think I saw one episode of that, but must have not been in a receptive mood, since it didn't make much of an impression on me. I know that it is highly regarded.

Anyway Ed - aren't you supposed to be designing WCDB 2.0 or something?

Get on with it, and stop insulting the great Blackadder family! :p


Martin :)

[Warship NWS]

Anyway Ed - aren't you supposed to be designing WCDB 2.0 or something?

Martin :)

Ed is a beta tester.. not a keyboard smasher, with the exception of being a forum hound.. ;)

[old_pop2000]

Do I detect two completely different conversations going on at the same time here? I warn you now that, though I know nothing about naval history, or armour-plating, I am an expert on Blackadder - so watch out! :D

Cheers

Martin
I love Edmund Blackadder. He's my hero. I especially like his sidekick, Balderich.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Anyway Ed - aren't you supposed to be designing WCDB 2.0 or something?

Get on with it, and stop insulting the great Blackadder family! :p


Martin :)

Martin:

I am a beta tester and a scenario designer. I leave coding to the experts like Chris and Tony.

[Mart]

Martin:

I am a beta tester and a scenario designer. I leave coding to the experts like Chris and Tony.

Very "Blackadder".

I salute your ability to grovel and then escape with your reputation intact.

Take care.

Martin :)

[old_pop2000]

Very "Blackadder".

I salute your ability to grovel and then escape with your reputation intact.

Take care.

Martin :)

I've found that program testing and certifying is much harder than writing the original code. If you learn to psuedo code well, writing the actual code is far easier. Once you've built up standarized routines then you can compile them into a library. Then you just tweak the library, preload the libraries and call them. Try assembly language programming if you want to become old and crazy.

I used debug test programs, validate and certify them for the naval engineers on the test stations. Not only do you have the coding issues, but also the programmable test equipment, interface panels and pallets plus all the cables connecting it to the test station. That why I transferred to setting up and running the PC maintenance shop, it was far easier.;)

[Mart]

I think you must be as old as me (is this possible?). I remember doing some (very) simple Z80 Assembler under CP/M and even tried machine code a few times. Mind you, some kids, half my age, were doing amazing things at the time (NO!- not that!) at the time, writing whole programs and games. While I was busy being pleased with myself for making the screen go blank, two brothers were busy inventing Codemasters in between their school lessons, and Richard Garriot was inventing Ultima. When I was their age I was still trying to get to grips with an abacus! :p

Martin

PS. On a more serious note, I imagine that beta-testing is quite gruelling. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

[tony_glazebrook]

I've found that program testing and certifying is much harder than writing the original code. If you learn to psuedo code well, writing the actual code is far easier. Once you've built up standarized routines then you can compile them into a library. Then you just tweak the library, preload the libraries and call them. Try assembly language programming if you want to become old and crazy.

I used debug test programs, validate and certify them for the naval engineers on the test stations. Not only do you have the coding issues, but also the programmable test equipment, interface panels and pallets plus all the cables connecting it to the test station. That why I transferred to setting up and running the PC maintenance shop, it was far easier.;)

Sorry Dennis but your statement about the complexity of testing vs coding can not be defended as a general rule. I agree that coding itself is or should be largely a mechanical task and the real job is in program design and then in constructing the pseudo code. But the complexity of the design and pseudo code task is hugely variable, depending entirely on the nature of the problem you are dealing with. Some problems can involve cookie cutter approaches, some can not. I have had a good laugh when people ask me what "game engine" I am using for SAS, as though you can just buy these things off the shelf. For cookie cutter games or other applications that follow known rules and parameters, yes. But for an original application, no way.

I have also tested professionally (for only as long as I absolutely had to) and it may be just me but to me testers and program designers are different people. The first require limitless patience; the latter are more like artists and the game is their canvas. At least that is the way I see it anyway.

[tony_glazebrook]

John:

I've never seen Rd Dwarf or Dad's Army. I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

As Mainwaring would say, "Stupid boy, Pike" for missing Dad's Army!

[clacton2]

Martin:

I think I saw one episode of that, but must have not been in a receptive mood, since it didn't make much of an impression on me. I know that it is highly regarded.

Ed,
The final Blackadder set in the trenches during WWI is a comic masterpiece, with the final episode of all having a very poignant ending when they all went "over the top" to their certain deaths. MAGNIFICENT!!
Jon:eek:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Very "Blackadder".

I salute your ability to grovel and then escape with your reputation intact.

Take care.

Martin :)

Martin:

As a life long Civil Servant, groveling comes natural to me.:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

Sorry Dennis but your statement about the complexity of testing vs coding can not be defended as a general rule. I agree that coding itself is or should be largely a mechanical task and the real job is in program design and then in constructing the pseudo code. But the complexity of the design and pseudo code task is hugely variable, depending entirely on the nature of the problem you are dealing with. Some problems can involve cookie cutter approaches, some can not. I have had a good laugh when people ask me what "game engine" I am using for SAS, as though you can just buy these things off the shelf. For cookie cutter games or other applications that follow known rules and parameters, yes. But for an original application, no way.

I have also tested professionally (for only as long as I absolutely had to) and it may be just me but to me testers and program designers are different people. The first require limitless patience; the latter are more like artists and the game is their canvas. At least that is the way I see it anyway.

Tony:

A good playtester has to nitpick, that's why Kyle is so good at it.

[Ed Rotondaro]

As Mainwaring would say, "Stupid boy, Pike" for missing Dad's Army!

Tony:

I've heard it is a funny show.

[keschofield]

Sorry Dennis but your statement about the complexity of testing vs coding can not be defended as a general rule. I agree that coding itself is or should be largely a mechanical task and the real job is in program design and then in constructing the pseudo code. But the complexity of the design and pseudo code task is hugely variable, depending entirely on the nature of the problem you are dealing with. Some problems can involve cookie cutter approaches, some can not. I have had a good laugh when people ask me what "game engine" I am using for SAS, as though you can just buy these things off the shelf. For cookie cutter games or other applications that follow known rules and parameters, yes. But for an original application, no way.

I have also tested professionally (for only as long as I absolutely had to) and it may be just me but to me testers and program designers are different people. The first require limitless patience; the latter are more like artists and the game is their canvas. At least that is the way I see it anyway.


This argument is constantly ongoing in the IT world. :rolleyes: It has been going on since punch card days (I started in punch cards :eek:). Is programming an art or a science?

In over 30 years of IT work (including being a programmer for a while) I still haven't come up with the answer. The only thing I do know is that knowing how to code does not make one a programmer. Being a programmer requires a unique mindset.

I've done every job there is to do in IT and .... wait for it .... I'm glad that I'm out of it!:D

[john964]

John:

I've never seen Rd Dwarf or Dad's Army. I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

You can probably rent them from one of the online DVD rental companies. Some other british comadies I like are Absoulutly Fabulous, all the Blackadder, Mr Bean and Are you being served again.

[john964]

Ed,
The final Blackadder set in the trenches during WWI is a comic masterpiece, with the final episode of all having a very poignant ending when they all went "over the top" to their certain deaths. MAGNIFICENT!!
Jon:eek: How about the in joke of Capt. Darling.

[clacton2]

Tony:

I've heard it is a funny show.

Ed,
It's a complete classic, especially the one where they capture a Luftwaffe aircrew, and the pilot wants to know what their names are, so they can be shot when Germany invades.
The German pilot says to Pike, "what is your name", and Captain Mainwaring shouts out "don't tell him Pike". Hilarious stuff.
Jon:)

[clacton2]

How about the in joke of Capt. Darling.

John,
Very true, especially when Blackadder says "are you coming Darling!", great stuff.
Jon:)

[Mart]

The last episode of the Blackadder goes forth (the WW1 series) truly is a masterpiece. It's as funny as all the other episodes until slowly, in the last 5 minutes, the mood begins to change. After a series of jokes, great wit, and "cunning plans" they realize that this is now "it", and that even Darling has to go. Standing on the ladders, waiting for the whistle to be blown, is very moving, and the final shots of them going over the top, at which point it ends, is, for me, as moving an indictment of war as I have seen.

How odd that they should get the timing and everything just SO right. There's even a joke at the very last minute when Baldrick thinks the siren is a sign that the war has ended, and doesn't realize that it's the signal to go.

"Hooray, it's 1916 and the war has ended!".

"I fear not Baldrick. It's the signal to advance".

Blackadder blows the whistle, and they climb over to their deaths.

Martin

[Ed Rotondaro]

This argument is constantly ongoing in the IT world. :rolleyes: It has been going on since punch card days (I started in punch cards :eek:). Is programming an art or a science?

In over 30 years of IT work (including being a programmer for a while) I still haven't come up with the answer. The only thing I do know is that knowing how to code does not make one a programmer. Being a programmer requires a unique mindset.

I've done every job there is to do in IT and .... wait for it .... I'm glad that I'm out of it!:D

Kurt:

I am totally impressed by any one who can program. It's like writing music, a true gift.

[Ed Rotondaro]

You can probably rent them from one of the online DVD rental companies. Some other british comadies I like are Absoulutly Fabulous, all the Blackadder, Mr Bean and Are you being served again.

John:

My sons love Mr. Bean and I have to admit I did enjoy Are you being served whenever I caught an episode.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
It's a complete classic, especially the one where they capture a Luftwaffe aircrew, and the pilot wants to know what their names are, so they can be shot when Germany invades.
The German pilot says to Pike, "what is your name", and Captain Mainwaring shouts out "don't tell him Pike". Hilarious stuff.
Jon:)

Jon:

That does sound funny actually.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The last episode of the Blackadder goes forth (the WW1 series) truly is a masterpiece. It's as funny as all the other episodes until slowly, in the last 5 minutes, the mood begins to change. After a series of jokes, great wit, and "cunning plans" they realize that this is now "it", and that even Darling has to go. Standing on the ladders, waiting for the whistle to be blown, is very moving, and the final shots of them going over the top, at which point it ends, is, for me, as moving an indictment of war as I have seen.

How odd that they should get the timing and everything just SO right. There's even a joke at the very last minute when Baldrick thinks the siren is a sign that the war has ended, and doesn't realize that it's the signal to go.

"Hooray, it's 1916 and the war has ended!".

"I fear not Baldrick. It's the signal to advance".

Blackadder blows the whistle, and they climb over to their deaths.

Martin

Martin:

How many episodes were in each series?

[tony_glazebrook]

Tony:

I've heard it is a funny show.

Ed, it may not be everyone's "cup of tea" (to keep with the British flavour here) but I absolutely love it. I think the casting, scripting and acting are all absolutely first class and a cut above most other TV comedies. You may need to watch a couple of episodes though to get into it. If you do, I'd recommend the fourth or fifth series. My favourite is "A Soldier's Farewell", in the fifth seres, where Captain Mainwaring dreams he is Napoleon. You can see in the first series, which is not quite so good, the characters are still establishing themselves.

[Mart]

Martin:

How many episodes were in each series?

Hi Ed

I'm not TOO sure. None of the series overstayed their welcome, so I'd guess about 6. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Blackadder portrayed in the very first series is VERY different from the next 3 series. In the first, he's a bit of an evil idiot. In the last three he's as sharp as you can get. Clearly, in the line of the Blackadder family, someone injected some seriously impressive IQ genes, in between the 1st and the second series. The first series is one I love in itself, but it has to be admitted that it's the least funny, and Blackadder is a different character altogether. The last three series also saw the meteoric rise of that great philosopher, "I have a cunning plan" Baldrick!

Blackadder did have a tendency to die at the end of each series, but the final series is rightly well remembered and exceptional. I know I sang it's praises highly, but any fans of the series will confirm the power of the final few minutes.

A truly great series for which, as writers, we have to thank Ben Elton (who writes better than he performs live) and Richard Curtis (who wrote Three Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill etc) I think in Blackadder, we saw his wicked side!

Cheers, Martin

[clacton2]

Martin:

How many episodes were in each series?

Ed,
Blackadder I - Set in the Middle Ages ( 1480's ) - 6 episodes.
Blackadder II - Set in Elizabethan times - 6 episodes.
Blackadder III - Set in Regency times - 6 episodes.
Blackadder Goes Forth - Set in WWI - 6 episodes.
Cheers
Jon:D

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed

I'm not TOO sure. None of the series overstayed their welcome, so I'd guess about 6. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Blackadder portrayed in the very first series is VERY different from the next 3 series. In the first, he's a bit of an evil idiot. In the last three he's as sharp as you can get. Clearly, in the line of the Blackadder family, someone injected some seriously impressive IQ genes, in between the 1st and the second series. The first series is one I love in itself, but it has to be admitted that it's the least funny, and Blackadder is a different character altogether. The last three series also saw the meteoric rise of that great philosopher, "I have a cunning plan" Baldrick!

Blackadder did have a tendency to die at the end of each series, but the final series is rightly well remembered and exceptional. I know I sang it's praises highly, but any fans of the series will confirm the power of the final few minutes.

A truly great series for which, as writers, we have to thank Ben Elton (who writes better than he performs live) and Richard Curtis (who wrote Three Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill etc) I think in Blackadder, we saw his wicked side!

Cheers, Martin

Martin:

I very much enjoyed Three Weddings and Funeral as well as Notting Hill. My wife and I stayed in a furnished flat in Notting Hill while on out honeymoon in Britain in 1997. It was a very interesting neighborhood with nice trendy restaurants, a lots of antique shops. Very nice experience.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Blackadder I - Set in the Middle Ages ( 1480's ) - 6 episodes.
Blackadder II - Set in Elizabethan times - 6 episodes.
Blackadder III - Set in Regency times - 6 episodes.
Blackadder Goes Forth - Set in WWI - 6 episodes.
Cheers
Jon:D

Jon:

Thanks. I believe the episode I saw was from the Regency series.

[Mike Malanaphy]

"The Battle of the River Plate A Grand Delusion" by Richard Woodman, pub. Pen & SWord, 2008.


Another book on the "Admiral Graf Spee"???



I do recommend this book. Woodman writes with an exciting narrative style without compromising historical fact and brings an insight into Langsdorff and Harwood’s actions that only an experienced Master Mariner, such as himself, could.



Given Langsdorff’s tendency to confide in his prisoners rather than his senior officers, Woodman believes that Langsdorff was a victim of "the loneliness of command". Langsdorff’s exec, Kapitan sur See Kay, was, of course, his equal in rank, and his gunnery officer, Ascher, was a Fregattenkapitan, no doubt with ambitions of their own, it would not have been easy for Langsdorff to have confided in them. Langsdorff was an excellent practitioner of cruiser warfare, he knew that to engage enemy warships was not worth the risk, a raider must avoid damage in order to be effective and the disruption to enemy shipping that a raider can cause is often more damaging to the enemy’s economy than the actual loss of tonnage. Woodman contends that Langsdorff’s officers did not see things that way, they wanted to fight warships, which is why, knowing that the Plate would be his last hunting ground before returning home, Langsdorff announced his intention of taking on the next Allied warship he came across.



As for the battle and its aftermath, again Woodman puts the emphasis on the mental rather than the material. Harwood and his captains were products of the Royal Navy’s education system that had trained them since boyhood in just what was expected of them and their ships. Their solutions to tactical problems were aggressive solutions. Lansdorff’s education had been far more political. National, and Nazi, prestige was all important, defeat must be avoided, or, if it couldn’t be avoided, then it must be a glorious defeat. Woodman pinpoints the critical instant of the battle, as the moment when Exeter ceased firing. Langsdorff then expected the two light cruisers to break off the action before he destroyed them both, but when Harwood’s ships came at him "like destroyers," Langsdorff could only assume, with his German training, that they were supported by heavier units that he could not yet see. To a German officer it was not conceivable that two light cruisers would make a torpedo attack in daylight on a Panzerschiff without heavy units in support. So Langsdorff turned away, believing that HMS "Renown" was just over the horizon.



Once the British disinformation effort began, its reports fell on fertile ground as Langsdorff was already convinced that British heavy units were off the Plate waiting for him. So convinced were they that one German office actually claimed to have seen "Renown’s" tripod mast from the "Graf Spee’s" main director.



I won’t tell you how it ends, don’t want to spoil it.:)



Side note: Harwood’s "Enemy in sight" signal was sent at 0946. It was picked up by HMS "Cumberland" in Port Stanley in a garbled form, however Captain Fallowfield realized what it was and ordered his ship to sea, despite the fact that half the boilers were stripped down for cleaning, she was underway at 1000.

Hi Guys,

I just finished Woodman's book. It is a good read and covers the story adequately. His descriptions of the Graf Spee's and her hunters' movement and actions are well laid out, incliuding Cumberland almost stumbling across her on the 7th of September 1939, but fortunately his Arado was still in working order. One of Woodman's strong points in his story telling is his service in the Merchant navy. He illuminates the merchants involved in terms of actions, cargoes, officers and crews, an often neglected feature of Atlantic stories and very interesting.

There is little new here however and his work is not sourced and the bibliography is secondary sources only. One intersting point is the intelligence info that Langsdorf had in terms of shipping off the Plate. On the 12/4/39, Langsdorff received intell from Berlin that Achilles was docked in Montevideo and that two large steamers, the Highland Monarch and Andalucia Star, were loaded and ready to leave. There was also information that a four ship convoy of about 30,000 tons was also ready to leave.

On 12/7/39, Langsdorff captured the SS Streonshalh. The captain threw her confidential materials overboard, but there were reports the germans recovered a bag which didn't sink. Additionally, a copy of teh Buenos Aries Herald was found in the Chief Engineer's cabin. The paper confirnmed the sailings of the two ships mentioned in his report from Berlin. Langsdorf was hoping to exceed the bag of the Emden in WW I and the convoy would be an east target even if escorted by Achilles and a couple of destroyers. The perfect opportunity to show his mettle against the RN on the way home. Langsdorf had confided to Dove that he felt his officers believed him a coward for not seeking out warships.

I believe that most on the forum will find Eric Groves's book, "The Price of Disobediance" is the better referenece work because of his use of primary sources and official records. Regarding the use of Ajax's Seafox and the infra red photography, he cites a memo to Millington-Drake regarding that activity. Grove delves deeper into the strategy and technical aspects of naval design and gunnery which illuminate some of the reasons the battle was not so lopsided as on paper.

If you have Grove's book, I see little need to buy Woodman's book. In comparing both books, I reviewed Dudley Pope's original and found an appendix which was purportedly an extract of the original German damage report, but ddin't mention the hole in the bow nor the damage to her fresh water distallation plant and the oil purification plant