First Impressions and AAR (of sorts)

[Christian Schwietzke]

I bought WC:NAW on Tuesday and have been playing around with it since then.

My impression so far has been positive. This is the tactical naval wargame I´ve been waiting for ever since I got a computer too modern to play Great Naval Battles 2+3.

I´ve been downloading some of the scenarios available here, as well. I player "Lee vs Kurita" last night, because I´ve always wondered how that battle would have gone, had it happened.
Turns out that, (with ROF rules and ammo type selection off, since I´m only learning this at the moment) it would have been an unmitigated disaster for Kurita. My ships got first blood, with a one-in-a-million shot from Iowa over 39,800 yards knocking out one of Haruna´s main gun turrets. At 36,000 yards, Alabama scored a hit on one of the Japanese light cruisers (never identified it - it was not Noshiro), which immediately disengaged and never came into visual range.
That lucky unlucky light cruisers ended up being the only survivor of Kurita´s force. My ships took a beating, too - at one point, by battle line was exchanging pleasantries with Yamato and Musashi over 10,000 yards. I lost a light cruiser (to the only torpedo hit to occur in the entire battle) and a destroyer, with two more destroyers disabled. Iowa and a heavy cruiser suffered extensive damage from fires, and South Dakota lost a main gun turret - that poor ship, this was the second time she suffered back luck when facing a Kongo class. The other ship, except for one very lucky BB, suffered various light and moderate degrees of damage, lost a few secondary guns etc. The IJN, however, essentially no longer exists.

[Kyle Holgate]

I've played that one (and variations of it) many times, and your outcome is pretty typical. As in a real battle - some lucky hits happen and I've had a few times where an Iowa or SD blows up or something, or the long lances turn into lucky lances!
Getting the Japanese DD's forward into reasonable torpedo range is very hard (under 10,000 yards). USN defensive 5" fire is a killer. On top of that the Japanese DD's have limited ammo - so if you have that turned on the Japanese side (Ai or you) have some tactical problems.
Do the Japanese DD's use targeted ROF or stay with spotting ROF in order to conserve ammo?
I think I uploaded a scenario with only the Iowa and New Jersey + supporting ships meeting up with Kurita's force as it was historically when it bounced Taffy 3. This one is a bit more of a challenge for the USN side. I screwed up a bit and had the Japanese coming up from the south instead of down from the north on that one (and some of the others) but the ships available at least are based on historical possibilities as best I could get them!

[Christian Schwietzke]

I've played that one (and variations of it) many times, and your outcome is pretty typical. As in a real battle - some lucky hits happen and I've had a few times where an Iowa or SD blows up or something, or the long lances turn into lucky lances!
Getting the Japanese DD's forward into reasonable torpedo range is very hard (under 10,000 yards). USN defensive 5" fire is a killer. On top of that the Japanese DD's have limited ammo - so if you have that turned on the Japanese side (Ai or you) have some tactical problems.
Do the Japanese DD's use targeted ROF or stay with spotting ROF in order to conserve ammo?

I turned limited ammo and ROFs off for the moment.

The thing with torpedoes was, I forgot that the Japanese cruisers also have torpedoes - I think the one that hit was fired by a cruiser.

I´ve played a one-on-one Iowa versus Yamato scenario, too, and got pasted playing as the US. The first two hits by Yamato knocked out two of Iowa´s main gun turrets. Iowa scored roughly as many hits as she took from then on, but that wasn´t enough.


I think I uploaded a scenario with only the Iowa and New Jersey + supporting ships meeting up with Kurita's force as it was historically when it bounced Taffy 3. This one is a bit more of a challenge for the USN side. I screwed up a bit and had the Japanese coming up from the south instead of down from the north on that one (and some of the others) but the ships available at least are based on historical possibilities as best I could get them!

Don´t think I downloaded that one. I have Lee vs Kurita and Oldendorff vs Kurita, but not yours. Well, later. Next is Ultimate Rheinübung, then probably Tsushima or North Sea Götterdämmerung. What can I say - I have a thing for large battles with big ships in them.

[Warship NWS]

My ships got first blood, with a one-in-a-million shot from Iowa over 39,800 yards knocking out one of Haruna´s main gun turrets.


Considering the New Jersey straddled - not once, but several times - an IJN DD (remember a DD is far harder to hit then a BC/BB) at ~35kyd+ at Truk this may not have been a "1 in a 1M shot". Even 1-2 low PK hits with that high of horizontal penetration at that range would be ugly against any armored warship. You do not need many hits from a 2700lb shell to cause catastrophic damage. Prior to WW2 it was part of the USN doctrine to use extreme long range gunnery targeted by spotter planes. The PKs would of course be very low but the USN accepted the concept of attriting heavy naval units with just enough hits to cause mission kills - around 5-10 hits per ship. On average, historically, it only took 3-6+ heavy caliber hits to cause serious damage to a major warship so that concept was not entirely out of the question in theory - however - high grade radar fire control made the theory far more of a possibility in combat.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Considering the New Jersey straddled - not once, but several times - an IJN DD (remember a DD is far harder to hit then a BC/BB) at ~35kyd+ at Truk this may not have been a "1 in a 1M shot". Even 1-2 low PK hits with that high of horizontal penetration at that range would be ugly against any armored warship. You do not need many hits from a 2700lb shell to cause catastrophic damage. Prior to WW2 it was part of the USN doctrine to use extreme long range gunnery targeted by spotter planes. The PKs would of course be very low but the USN accepted the concept of attriting heavy naval units with just enough hits to cause mission kills - around 5-10 hits per ship. On average, historically, it only took 3-6+ heavy caliber hits to cause serious damage to a major warship so that concept was not entirely out of the question in theory - however - high grade radar fire control made the theory far more of a possibility in combat.

I called it one in a million because, for example, it was more half again the real-world record for a BB-on-BB hit, and beyond visual range as well.

[Warship NWS]

I called it one in a million because, for example, it was more half again the real-world record for a BB-on-BB hit, and beyond visual range as well.

The Warspite shot vs CG doesn't really count in this case as that was an optical only directed salvo.. not a high grade RFC aimed salvo. The Warspite would never have detected a DD at 35kyd for example, much less ever get a shot at it. If the NJ could straddle a tin can at 35kyd.. do you think it would take 1 vs 1M salvos to hit a BC/BB sized target? ;)

[Kyle Holgate]

Christian - the scenario with just the fast BB's - meaning the two 33 knot ones - Vs what's left of Kurita's forces is called fast BB's Vs Kurita. It's post number 28 in the WW2 forum.
Choosing the shell type and ROF option does take more work and slows down the game - particularly with the bigger battles. It's worth it to me though as it adds a lot of tactical decisions that need to be made during game play. Some ships have very limited ammo and you need to decide if you want to open fire at all or wait and risk having the ship disabled or sunk without even firing. Try the German CL's in WW1 out if you really want some fun along those lines :rolleyes:.

[Christian Schwietzke]

The Warspite shot vs CG doesn't really count in this case as that was an optical only directed salvo.. not a high grade RFC aimed salvo. The Warspite would never have detected a DD at 35kyd for example, much less ever get a shot at it. If the NJ could straddle a tin can at 35kyd.. do you think it would take 1 vs 1M salvos to hit a BC/BB sized target? ;)

Well, okay, 1:1,000,000 is an exaggeration. But that sort of hit, under that sort of circumstances, has to be 1:10,000 at least.

[Warship NWS]

Well, okay, 1:1,000,000 is an exaggeration. But that sort of hit, under that sort of circumstances, has to be 1:10,000 at least.

Again, the NJ straddled a tin can on the first salvo at 35kyd.. you really think a BC/BB sized target would require 10,000 shells for a hit? If so.. where is your math to prove it my friend? Flip it.. try the NJ vs CD at 26kyd - the Warspite shot. Odds? ;)

CS.. the trap your walking into is simple, your going based on one incident in history - as if that would cover all potential possibilities. When you consider that you can fight in one night in WCNAW more major naval battles then all of WW1 and WW2 combined.. do you really want to get stuck on one salvo being fired by one battleship at extreme range? That would be like guaging all naval combat gunfire calculations on one salvo shot - hardly worthy of any conclusive evidence and definitely not a good way to develop any sort of realistic simulation.

[Christian Schwietzke]

Again, the NJ straddled a tin can on the first salvo at 35kyd.. you really think a BC/BB sized target would require 10,000 shells for a hit? If so.. where is your math to prove it my friend? Flip it.. try the NJ vs CD at 26kyd - the Warspite shot. Odds? ;)

You know the game mechanics better than I do - what are the odds for hitting at almost 40,000 yards and knocking out a main gun turret with that shot?

Actually, most game mechanics I know details about have some sort of lower limit of probability - say, 1 or 2 or 5 percent - as long as something is theoretically possible. And I bet the probability for this one was right there.

For NJ vs CD - a far easier shot - I´d say the hit chance is around 5-10% per turn with the lowest ROF.

[Warship NWS]

You can read the PKs in WCNAW.. so knock yourself out. ;) I will let those of you reading this thread have fun with this topic. ;)

[Kyle Holgate]

Opening salvo - NJ vs Kongo in a quick 1:1 I just put together was 13% chance to hit.

As for the inner workings of the game - the odds of a main turret hit specifically, I don't know. The PK numbers for that are "under the Hood" - inside the code somewhere and that's Chris' dept.

13% chance isn't too bad for 35,000 yards.

Christian, turn the radars off and watch what the differences are. Try and Alaska vs Scharnhorst with then without radar. That US fire control radar was a killer.

[asnrobert]

Don´t think I downloaded that one. I have Lee vs Kurita and Oldendorff vs Kurita, but not yours. Well, later. Next is Ultimate Rheinübung, then probably Tsushima or North Sea Götterdämmerung. What can I say - I have a thing for large battles with big ships in them.

You might want to give my Heavy Metal scenarios a try. The WW1 version pits 4 QEs against 4 Badens, and the WW2 version has four Iowas and four Yamatos going head to head.