Western myth or reality?

[Warship NWS]

I have seen a few movies covering the topic of what happened with Wyatt Earp and his run in with the "cowboys".. which are the closest to reality vs myth?

Any takers?

[old_pop2000]

Reality - Wyatt did have part ownership in the Oriental Saloon

He was a deputy county sheriff

After town marshal Fred White was accidently killed, Virgil became town marshal

There was a gang of cattle rustlers called the cowboys headed by Ike Clanton

Wyatt did conduct "Earps Vendetta Ride" killing Frank Stillwell first, Florentino Cruz,
Curly Bill Brocius, Billy and Ike Clanton and fourteen other "cowboys".

Wyatt did marry Josie, and former wife died of overdose of Landunum.

Myth - Gunfight at the OK corral actually occurred at a lot on Third and Fremont Street.

Wyatt never visited Doc Holliday at the sanitarium. He did not actually know of his death until
until seven years later

No one in the gunfight had any experience in gun battles except Virgil, who had been in the Civil War.

Johnny Ringo was found underneath of tree, however, it was reputed to be suicide.

[Kyle Holgate]

I have seen a few movies covering the topic of what happened with Wyatt Earp and his run in with the "cowboys".. which are the closest to reality vs myth?

Any takers?

The Star Trek version was of course the closest ;)

[Smiffy]

Wyatt claimed, as reported in one early biography, to have spent time in Kansas hunting buffalo from 1871-1874. Recent research however places him in Peoria, Illinois, where, during that time, he was arrested three times for running a brothel.

Got to be more fun than skinning buffalo:D

[Smiffy]

A question of my own that may find an answer here.


It is a fact that Bill Hickok was marshal of Hays, Kansas, while the US 7th Cavalry were stationed at Fort Hays and that Hickok had several skirmishes with soldiers of the 7th.


What may be myth is the story that the animosity between Hickok and the 7th was due to an incident between Wild Bill and Tom Custer. The story has it that before Hickok became marshal, Tom Custer, who did not share his brother's taste for water alone, was in the habit of drinking a skinful in the mess before riding into town for more booze. His party piece was to ride his horse into the saloon and jump it onto the pool table. The first time Hickok saw this, he ordered Custer to get down and Custer refused. Without further discussion Hickok shot Custer's horse, dead, on the table, with Custer still on it.


I read that in a biog of Hickok (can't remember the author and I'm not at home at the moment to check). None of the written works of either George or Elizabeth Custer mention this incident, but it is the kind of thing they tended to skip over. Can anyone verify the story?

[old_pop2000]

A question of my own that may find an answer here.


It is a fact that Bill Hickok was marshal of Hays, Kansas, while the US 7th Cavalry were stationed at Fort Hays and that Hickok had several skirmishes with soldiers of the 7th.


What may be myth is the story that the animosity between Hickok and the 7th was due to an incident between Wild Bill and Tom Custer. The story has it that before Hickok became marshal, Tom Custer, who did not share his brother's taste for water alone, was in the habit of drinking a skinful in the mess before riding into town for more booze. His party piece was to ride his horse into the saloon and jump it onto the pool table. The first time Hickok saw this, he ordered Custer to get down and Custer refused. Without further discussion Hickok shot Custer's horse, dead, on the table, with Custer still on it.


I read that in a biog of Hickok (can't remember the author and I'm not at home at the moment to check). None of the written works of either George or Elizabeth Custer mention this incident, but it is the kind of thing they tended to skip over. Can anyone verify the story?
In my research, it never happened. Tom Custer was roudy and frequently got drunk and disorderly. He did ride his horse into a saloon, and was promply dragged off of the horse by Hickok. He was hauled before a justice of the peace and fined. Tom Custer vowed revenge for the incident. In numerous accounts, I've never seen anything about him killing the horse. Of course, if he did, then pulling Custer off of it, would be easier. Maybe Hickok did it to prevent injury to the guests in the saloon.

[Smiffy]

I only ever saw it one book, so I guess it was just an inflated version of the story. However, I still have this mental image of the saloon keeper trying get a dead horse off his pool table :D

[Ed Rotondaro]

In my research, it never happened. Tom Custer was roudy and frequently got drunk and disorderly. He did ride his horse into a saloon, and was promply dragged off of the horse by Hickok. He was hauled before a justice of the peace and fined. Tom Custer vowed revenge for the incident. In numerous accounts, I've never seen anything about him killing the horse. Of course, if he did, then pulling Custer off of it, would be easier. Maybe Hickok did it to prevent injury to the guests in the saloon.

Dennsi and Smiffy:

There is probably more mythology and nonsense about the American West than any other period in American history. It was perfectly positioned for it to occur. Mass market cheap books and then the silent movies. Most of the persons involved were still alive and able to make a buck off of it. End of cynical rant.

[Smiffy]

Dennsi and Smiffy:

There is probably more mythology and nonsense about the American West than any other period in American history. It was perfectly positioned for it to occur. Mass market cheap books and then the silent movies. Most of the persons involved were still alive and able to make a buck off of it. End of cynical rant.

Agree entirely. It is interesting to try and pick the truth out. My own interest was kindled in 2004 when I visited Denver. It was only when we went to see Buffalo Bill's grave that I discovered that the Wild West Show had visited my home town, in England, back 1908. I knew that the show had been to London several times, but hadn't realised that it toured the country. On my return I mentioned this to my mother, who went and dug out an old photograoh of my grandmother, then aged 8 or 9, shaking hands with Buffalo Bill.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Agree entirely. It is interesting to try and pick the truth out. My own interest was kindled in 2004 when I visited Denver. It was only when we went to see Buffalo Bill's grave that I discovered that the Wild West Show had visited my home town, in England, back 1908. I knew that the show had been to London several times, but hadn't realised that it toured the country. On my return I mentioned this to my mother, who went and dug out an old photograoh of my grandmother, then aged 8 or 9, shaking hands with Buffalo Bill.

Smiffy:

Awesome! That's what makes history so special, we are all a part of it. Having had the luck to visit your country twice, I still can't lost my love for it's many charms (Even my friend Jon who's mad at me will admit that LOL).:)

[old_pop2000]

Dennsi and Smiffy:

There is probably more mythology and nonsense about the American West than any other period in American history. It was perfectly positioned for it to occur. Mass market cheap books and then the silent movies. Most of the persons involved were still alive and able to make a buck off of it. End of cynical rant.
There is a lot of myth, especially about gunfights with .45 cal Colt Peacmakers. If you have ever fired one, you know that shooting at a target that is over 100 ft from you and hitting the target, is problematic. Some people like Hickok might have been able to do it, but most gunfights were almost toe to toe, because the gun did not have the range.

[john964]

Dennsi and Smiffy:

There is probably more mythology and nonsense about the American West than any other period in American history. It was perfectly positioned for it to occur. Mass market cheap books and then the silent movies. Most of the persons involved were still alive and able to make a buck off of it. End of cynical rant.
OK, Here is a common Western Myth and the truth

Indians attacking a Wagon Train.

According to Military records of attacks on wagon trains between 1870 and 1890, there are only 3 recorded attacks. Biggest reason to well protected most wagon trains numberd over 100 wagons and some had over 300. If you average the number of people per wagon the minimum is 2 to a more likely number 5-7. You are looking at 300 to 600 people for a 100 wagon train with at least 1/3 to 1/2 or more as shooters and most of the men were more often tha naught veterans of the ACW and kids also learned to shoot at a very young age, as young as 8 years old.

[old_pop2000]

OK, Here is a common Western Myth and the truth

Indians attacking a Wagon Train.

According to Military records of attacks on wagon trains between 1870 and 1890, there are only 3 recorded attacks. Biggest reason to well protected most wagon trains numberd over 100 wagons and some had over 300. If you average the number of people per wagon the minimum is 2 to a more likely number 5-7. You are looking at 300 to 600 people for a 100 wagon train with at least 1/3 to 1/2 or more as shooters and most of the men were more often tha naught veterans of the ACW and kids also learned to shoot at a very young age, as young as 8 years old.

If you think about it, if they were armed with breechloaders, that's a lot of firepower for indians to deal with especially is they circle and you have to ride around them. But I have to believe that indians were much smarter than that.

[john964]

If you think about it, if they were armed with breechloaders, that's a lot of firepower for indians to deal with especially is they circle and you have to ride around them. But I have to believe that indians were much smarter than that.
Most wagon train personel carried lever action rifles like Henrey's and Winchesters. From what I have read most adult males carried repeating rifles then older childern 12-16 would have breechloaders and the youngest would have muzzle loaders plus some woman would also know how to shoot. This held true untill about 1880 and then 80-90% of long guns were repeaters.

[Ed Rotondaro]

There is a lot of myth, especially about gunfights with .45 cal Colt Peacmakers. If you have ever fired one, you know that shooting at a target that is over 100 ft from you and hitting the target, is problematic. Some people like Hickok might have been able to do it, but most gunfights were almost toe to toe, because the gun did not have the range.

Dennis:

I agree. I'm not sure where I read it, but an account of a gunfight/saloon shoot out occured and the two fighters in question shot off about 14 rounds and hit nobody at pretty much point blank range. I guess one could consider a "gunfighter" as somebody who actually hit the target and killed someone? I'm glad I live in the 21st. century (I think)?

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I agree. I'm not sure where I read it, but an account of a gunfight/saloon shoot out occured and the two fighters in question shot off about 14 rounds and hit nobody at pretty much point blank range. I guess one could consider a "gunfighter" as somebody who actually hit the target and killed someone? I'm glad I live in the 21st. century (I think)?
I wonder if that is the reason that Wyatt Earp was never struck or even grazed by a bullet in all the years out on the frontier, including Tombstone. That might also be the reason Morgan was killed by a shotgun, so the person would not miss.

[john964]

Dennis:

I agree. I'm not sure where I read it, but an account of a gunfight/saloon shoot out occured and the two fighters in question shot off about 14 rounds and hit nobody at pretty much point blank range. I guess one could consider a "gunfighter" as somebody who actually hit the target and killed someone? I'm glad I live in the 21st. century (I think)?
Most towns in the old west actually had no type of law enforcment untill after 1900 IIRC in two of the biggest outlaw shootouts most of the gang members were killed or wounded by local citizen. IIRC the James gang was shotup in Northfield Minn and the Cole-Younger gang in Coffieville Kan.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Most towns in the old west actually had no type of law enforcment untill after 1900 IIRC in two of the biggest outlaw shootouts most of the gang members were killed or wounded by local citizen. IIRC the James gang was shotup in Northfield Minn and the Cole-Younger gang in Coffieville Kan.

Dennis:

I recently finished a brief book on Western lawmen from Osprey Publishing. Most of the better ones like the Earps often got the job just because they had some prior experience or some political connections. Many times outlaws had been lawmen briefly. The line better lawman and criminal was often very thin. The main driving force for organized law and justice came from the need for merciful executions. Too many hangings were botched and the states felt the need for a centralized prison system and law enforcement.

[fred8615]

Wyatt did conduct "Earps Vendetta Ride" killing Frank Stillwell first, Florentino Cruz, Curly Bill Brocius, Billy and Ike Clanton and fourteen other cowboys".
Ike wasn't killed during the "Vendetta Ride." He was killed by another lawman in Arizona in 1887. And Billy died at the O.K. Corral fight.

[keschofield]

There is a lot of myth, especially about gunfights with .45 cal Colt Peacmakers. If you have ever fired one, you know that shooting at a target that is over 100 ft from you and hitting the target, is problematic. Some people like Hickok might have been able to do it, but most gunfights were almost toe to toe, because the gun did not have the range.


I can second this statement, having fired many of the pistols that we (my Dad and I) had in our collection at various times over the years. Even today, long range shooting with normal (not special target versions) handguns occurs only in the movies. Interestingly, the "Walker" Colt was accurate out to longer range than most pistols (when it didn't blow up which it did frequently). But then the d@#$ thing is so big its almost a hand carbine.

IIRC Hickock didn't use the "Peacemaker". His twin pistols were either Colt or Remington "Army" or "Navy" models. (working for memory here :rolleyes:). I believe that Remington pistols and Smith & Wesson pistols had a better reputation for accuracy and sturdiness than Colts. But Colt had better publicists!

[Mike Malanaphy]

I wonder if that is the reason that Wyatt Earp was never struck or even grazed by a bullet in all the years out on the frontier, including Tombstone. That might also be the reason Morgan was killed by a shotgun, so the person would not miss.



Hi Dennis,

Early handguns were hardly ergonomic for point shooting and add in adreanline and a little red eye, it's not surprising that there were a lot of misses. Per the FBI more than half of all law enforcement shootings happen at 7 yards or less with an average hit rate of 50%. Most likely, you will not shoot from your training stance and it will be in a low light situation.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

Early handguns were hardly ergonomic for point shooting and add in adreanline and a little red eye, it's not surprising that there were a lot of misses. Per the FBI more than half of all law enforcement shootings happen at 7 yards or less with an average hit rate of 50%. Most likely, you will not shoot from your training stance and it will be in a low light situation.
7 yards or less, then why do I practice at 25 or 50? At 7-10 yrds, even with these old eyes, I couldn't miss, moving or not. Low light? Training stance? My dad's method was simple; grab gun, point gun, shoot gun, kill target. Very simple. My father was a gunner, not match shooter. That's probably why I won't make it either.

I guess that's why men like Hickok and others, who were great shots, were something out of the ordinary. My friend, you are a wealth of information about weapons, I have more fun talking to you about them.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I can second this statement, having fired many of the pistols that we (my Dad and I) had in our collection at various times over the years. Even today, long range shooting with normal (not special target versions) handguns occurs only in the movies. Interestingly, the "Walker" Colt was accurate out to longer range than most pistols (when it didn't blow up which it did frequently). But then the d@#$ thing is so big its almost a hand carbine.

IIRC Hickock didn't use the "Peacemaker". His twin pistols were either Colt or Remington "Army" or "Navy" models. (working for memory here :rolleyes:). I believe that Remington pistols and Smith & Wesson pistols had a better reputation for accuracy and sturdiness than Colts. But Colt had better publicists!

Kurt:

Weren't a lot of the Colt and Remington models converted from their original cap and ball actions to use metallic cartridges?

[old_pop2000]

Kurt:

Weren't a lot of the Colt and Remington models converted from their original cap and ball actions to use metallic cartridges?
I believe that the army did perform conversions on Colt and Remington Civil War pistols by removing and replacing the cylinder. I am not certain where to research for that, but If I have a chance, it would be interesting to see how that was accomplished.

[Mike Malanaphy]

7 yards or less, then why do I practice at 25 or 50? At 7-10 yrds, even with these old eyes, I couldn't miss, moving or not. Low light? Training stance? My dad's method was simple; grab gun, point gun, shoot gun, kill target. Very simple. My father was a gunner, not match shooter. That's probably why I won't make it either.

I guess that's why men like Hickok and others, who were great shots, were something out of the ordinary. My friend, you are a wealth of information about weapons, I have more fun talking to you about them.

Hi Dennis,

My pleasure since you educated me so much over the last few years. : ) I am not a student of the Old West, but a lot of information of weapons characteristics were available in magazines when I was an avid reader of them in the 80 and mid 90s. Colt SAA revolvers and many of their imitators recoiled back and up due to their design. Many shooters complained of it's lack in pointing ability in the hand, so necessary in close in unsighted shooting. Often, they were shot one handed as was the style of the day which lead to a slower rate of fire in getting the gun back on target. I had a Ruger .45 long colt which was fun to shoot but amply demonstrated to me the recoil issues and slow rater of fore for follow up shots. I would imagine some of those Old West folks were excellent natural shooters which would give them a great advantage over the untrained.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

My pleasure since you educated me so much over the last few years. : ) I am not a student of the Old West, but a lot of information of weapons characteristics were available in magazines when I was an avid reader of them in the 80 and mid 90s. Colt SAA revolvers and many of their imitators recoiled back and up due to their design. Many shooters complained of it's lack in pointing ability in the hand, so necessary in close in unsighted shooting. Often, they were shot one handed as was the style of the day which lead to a slower rate of fire in getting the gun back on target. I had a Ruger .45 long colt which was fun to shoot but amply demonstrated to me the recoil issues and slow rater of fore for follow up shots. I would imagine some of those Old West folks were excellent natural shooters which would give them a great advantage over the untrained.
I should begin to research more about black powder weapons and the old west, especially the Civil War era.

It would be nice to hear from the forum about some good books on the subject.

As for the exchange of information, your intimate knowledge of firearms and land warfare from the Cold War are invaluable. Both are subjects that I have enjoyed throughout my life.

[keschofield]

Kurt:

Weren't a lot of the Colt and Remington models converted from their original cap and ball actions to use metallic cartridges?


Ed,

I believe so but don't recall the specifics. My library is locked up in storage. My dad's old library is scattered the winds unfortunately. I have some of his books. My sister and my mother have others. Many volumes were given to gun friends of his like Bill Guthman (seen on Antiques Roadshow sometimes) and Norm Flayderman (since my dad's passing, probably the most knowledgeable person in the country regarding US martial arms - if he's still around).

[asnrobert]

What was the truth behind the events of the OK Corral? Years ago I read a book entitled "Triggernometry" which profiled some of the famous (and not so famous) Western gunfighters. One chapter of the book was on the Sheriff of Tombstone, IIRC (Earp was the Marshal over a larger territory, not just Tombstone, unless I'm mistaken), and according to his account in the book, the Clantons were laying down their weapons when the Earps and Holliday opened up.

[old_pop2000]

What was the truth behind the events of the OK Corral? Years ago I read a book entitled "Triggernometry" which profiled some of the famous (and not so famous) Western gunfighters. One chapter of the book was on the Sheriff of Tombstone, IIRC (Earp was the Marshal over a larger territory, not just Tombstone, unless I'm mistaken), and according to his account in the book, the Clantons were laying down their weapons when the Earps and Holliday opened up.
Well, we know that Doc Holliday had a run in with Ike Clanton, the tuesday night before the confrontation. But, who knows after that. Why not read this and let Wyatt Earp, in a sworn statement tell the events.

http://www.tombstone1880.com/archives/wyatt.htm

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,

I believe so but don't recall the specifics. My library is locked up in storage. My dad's old library is scattered the winds unfortunately. I have some of his books. My sister and my mother have others. Many volumes were given to gun friends of his like Bill Guthman (seen on Antiques Roadshow sometimes) and Norm Flayderman (since my dad's passing, probably the most knowledgeable person in the country regarding US martial arms - if he's still around).

Kurt:

Thanks. At least your dad's books went to people who could appreciate them. What's the temperature like in Atlanta?

[keschofield]

Kurt:

Thanks. At least your dad's books went to people who could appreciate them. What's the temperature like in Atlanta?


Typical spring day. 50 degrees and raining. :rolleyes:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Typical spring day. 50 degrees and raining. :rolleyes:

Same here, except it's barely 40 degrees.:(

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Dennis,

Early handguns were hardly ergonomic for point shooting and add in adreanline and a little red eye, it's not surprising that there were a lot of misses. Per the FBI more than half of all law enforcement shootings happen at 7 yards or less with an average hit rate of 50%. Most likely, you will not shoot from your training stance and it will be in a low light situation.

Mike:

Wasn't there a version of the Colt SA Army that was called the Bisley? It had a totally different grip style than the Peacemaker and was supposedly for target shooting. It looked awkward to my eye.

[old_pop2000]

Mike:

Wasn't there a version of the Colt SA Army that was called the Bisley? It had a totally different grip style than the Peacemaker and was supposedly for target shooting. It looked awkward to my eye.
Holland and Holland built and sold a target weapon called the Colt Bisley Target Gun. Bisley was an English town, the site of a shooting matchs. In 1894, Colt attempted to market the weapon, which was reputed to be one of the best match guns with a heavier frame, long grips, and full width trigger.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Holland and Holland built and sold a target weapon called the Colt Bisley Target Gun. Bisley was an English town, the site of a shooting matchs. In 1894, Colt attempted to market the weapon, which was reputed to be one of the best match guns with a heavier frame, long grips, and full width trigger.

Dennis:

An acquaintence of mine has a replica which he uses for Western style re-enactment shooting matches.

[djcyclone]

All that I know is that in the gun fight at the OK corral, only one or two cowboys actually had a gun. I saw a document on the history channel that referred to the battle as the slaughter at the OK corral. If I remember right, it was Doc Holliday who shot first prompting the others to shoot also. It was really nothing other than a bunch of law men using a good excuse to kill a few guys.


Also a big myth of the old west was the concept on gun draws. Most of the time, this only occurred when two men got so drunk that they could not see straight. 90% of the time they would have gun fights, but they were so drunk that they would miss each other. After they shot all six shots from their pistols, they would come to their senses and realize that they just nearly died. They would then shake hands and go back to the bar and continue to drink.

I know, I watch the history channel too much, but it is the only decent thing on TV anymore.

[fred8615]

All that I know is that in the gun fight at the OK corral, only one or two cowboys actually had a gun. I saw a document on the history channel that referred to the battle as the slaughter at the OK corral. If I remember right, it was Doc Holliday who shot first prompting the others to shoot also. It was really nothing other than a bunch of law men using a good excuse to kill a few guys.
The only participant that everyone absolutely agreed was unarmed at the the time of the fight was Ike Clanton. Billy Claiborne, who also survived, claimed later he was unarmed, but some witnesses testified not only was he armed, but fired a couple of shots before running away. Tom McLaury is the only one killed whom no one is sure whether he was armed or not.

And the fact Ike was not killed, even though everyone agreed it was his actions and threats in the previous hours that eventually led to the fight, kind of shoots a hole in the theory that it was "...really nothing other than a bunch of law men using a good excuse to kill a few guys."

Just because it's on the History Channel doesn't mean someone's personel bias or hidden agenda isn't there.