Dogfights

[john964]

If you want an informative look at air-to-air combat. My recommend you buy or rent History Channels 'Dogfights' seasons 1 and 2. This series covers everything in regareds to air combat, they show the manuvers and counter moves in easy to understand graphics. They also have interviews with modern pilots and if the person is still alive they have the person involved in the actual ingagement interviewed if not they use that persons diary or recordings if they gave previous accounts. They also have interviews with historical authors who have written about the battles. My personal rating for this series is 9.5 out of 10.

[old_pop2000]

If you want an informative look at air-to-air combat. My recommend you buy or rent History Channels 'Dogfights' seasons 1 and 2. This series covers everything in regareds to air combat, they show the manuvers and counter moves in easy to understand graphics. They also have interviews with modern pilots and if the person is still alive they have the person involved in the actual ingagement interviewed if not they use that persons diary or recordings if they gave previous accounts. They also have interviews with historical authors who have written about the battles. My personal rating for this series is 9.5 out of 10.

That is a wonderful series and I am going to buy the whole set. Excellent graphics, good narration and enjoy the discussions.

[paladin5]

I loved that series.

[old_pop2000]

I was watching Dogfights after lunch today, there were three episodes in a row, and heard a term which was interesting and I thought; "Maybe my friends have heard that term and didn't understand it." So, here it is.

In this episode about Vietnam concerning two dogfights between USAF F4s, they used the term "tree contact". It was in regards to Steve Richie and his backseater's contact with Mig-21s. So, what is a 'tree contact'.

A tree is an APX-80 IFF Interrogator that is connected to the APX-76 IFF interrogator to simply make contact with enemy aircraft and determine a. Are they friend or foe? b. If foe, where are they?. This device, which was located on the inboard pylon, was scarce so only the flight lead had it. This is why Ritchie's aircraft made the contact. It allowed the flight to ascertain the presence and location of MIG-21s at a much greater distance than the F4 radar. It was termed the Combat Tree and it was top secret.

The F-15 still has a combat tree, but it is probably much more sophisticated and nothing is advertised about it. Anyway, if you read or hear of the combat tree, no it isn't a spruce growing somewhere, it is an electronic device carried to identify an enemy aircraft.

Note: I don't know if flight sims have it programmed into the aircraft, but they should, when it worked, it was handy. Unfortunately, the APX-76/ApX-80 was one PIB to keep operating. Trust me.;)

[keschofield]

I had wondered about that. Thanks for the explanation Dennis.

[old_pop2000]

For Christmas, my son gave me a gift card online and I bought the Dogfights series. I am really looking forward to it. I probably will have to reread my Fighter Tactics book to brush up.

[Ed Rotondaro]

For Christmas, my son gave me an Amazon card and I bought the Dogfights series. I am really looking forward to it. I probably will have to reread my Fighter Tactics book to brush up.

Dennis:

How many seasons are there? I don't know if I've seen any of the second season. What night is it on these days? The Military Channel had an excellent show on Gettysburg that my wife and I watched together. The only wierd thing was that they had a CGI Lincoln but real actors for everyone else. They couldn't find somebody who looks like Lincoln? the section on how the Gettysburg address was modified and edited to its final version was quite interesting.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

How many seasons are there? I don't know if I've seen any of the second season. What night is it on these days? The Military Channel had an excellent show on Gettysburg that my wife and I watched together. The only wierd thing was that they had a CGI Lincoln but real actors for everyone else. They couldn't find somebody who looks like Lincoln? the section on how the Gettysburg address was modified and edited to its final version was quite interesting.

Hi Ed:
There are two full seasons, and we are on season three.

I saw that Gettysburg program, a couple of times, very interesting show. Shame we can't get into the Civil War on the forums, fascinating area of discussion. I wish we could have a pre-1900 forum under the Military History Forum. Many good wars to discuss especially from Europe. It would be nice to get the European members involved in the discussions.

Of course, a good dogfights thread would be great, but no takers.

[kirkoa]

Hi Ed:
There are two full seasons, and we are on season three.

I saw that Gettysburg program, a couple of times, very interesting show. Shame we can't get into the Civil War on the forums, fascinating area of discussion. I wish we could have a pre-1900 forum under the Military History Forum. Many good wars to discuss especially from Europe. It would be nice to get the European members involved in the discussions.

Of course, a good dogfights thread would be great, but no takers.


I have both of the seasons on DVD. Boy, do they give the feeling of flying! Thanks for the "tree contact" explanation, I was WAAAAYYYYY off in what I thought they meant! :eek:

In season 2 I really like the Kamikaze episode and the WW1 episode.

Is there a season 3 out pop? That's all my wallet needs!:rolleyes:

[old_pop2000]

I have both of the seasons on DVD. Boy, do they give the feeling of flying! Thanks for the "tree contact" explanation, I was WAAAAYYYYY off in what I thought they meant! :eek:

In season 2 I really like the Kamikaze episode and the WW1 episode.

Is there a season 3 out pop? That's all my wallet needs!:rolleyes:

I don't believe that the current season is on sale, until it is over.

I agree that the Kamikaze episode and all the rest is great. I watched the Vietnam stuff over and over.

As far as the tree contact, the terminology can be tricky. Glad it was helpful.;)

[kirkoa]

Wait...they are showing season 3 now?

[kirkoa]

I don't believe that the current season is on sale, until it is over.

I agree that the Kamikaze episode and all the rest is great. I watched the Vietnam stuff over and over.

As far as the tree contact, the terminology can be tricky. Glad it was helpful.;)

I like the episode where the F-4 Phantoms acted like F-105s to sucker in the Mig-21s. Come to think of it, all of the Vietnam ones are good. I dont know how they do their graphics, but when they show the Phantoms zooming at ground level the feeling of the speed the viewer gets is awesome.

[old_pop2000]

I like the episode where the F-4 Phantoms acted like F-105s to sucker in the Mig-21s. Come to think of it, all of the Vietnam ones are good. I dont know how they do their graphics, but when they show the Phantoms zooming at ground level the feeling of the speed the viewer gets is awesome.

You are talking about Operation Bolo where the US F4Cs using routes, times and call signs of F-105s tricked the Migs into coming up to play. The real key was the increased use of the QRC-160 Radar Jammer which wreaked havoc on the SA-2 Fan Song B and tracking radars. This forced the NVAF to send up the Migs to intercept the F-105s. On this occasion, the F-105s were 54 F-4Cs with 4 AIM-7s and 4 AIM-9s. They also had 24 F-105s and 24 F-104s. Robin Olds in Olds flight along with three other lead flights were weapons free, which gave them an advantage. Anyway, it is an interesting air battle over the NVAF aerodrome at Phuc Yen.

The graphics are great, like I said, I just love that program.

[john964]

I like the episode where the F-4 Phantoms acted like F-105s to sucker in the Mig-21s. Come to think of it, all of the Vietnam ones are good. I dont know how they do their graphics, but when they show the Phantoms zooming at ground level the feeling of the speed the viewer gets is awesome.
My favorite episode is "Long Odds". I liked the story of the SBD pilot who took on 3 Zeros and shot down 2 and survived a mid-air also the one on the B-17 that was jumped by 15-20 fibhters over Bouganville. IIRC the crew was awarded 2 MOH 9 DSC and 8 PH.

[keschofield]

My favorite episode was where the Spads were jumped by a Mig but blew him away. I'm not sure what season that was.

[old_pop2000]

My favorite episode was where the Spads were jumped by a Mig but blew him away. I'm not sure what season that was.

They just recently, in the last few days, had that episode. In all honesty, those two Spad pilots were lucky they were up against a dumb Mig pilot. He should have accelerated, pulled back on the stick climbed and then reversed his climb and dove on those two Spads and made toast out of them.

[old_pop2000]

My favorite episode is "Long Odds". I liked the story of the SBD pilot who took on 3 Zeros and shot down 2 and survived a mid-air also the one on the B-17 that was jumped by 15-20 fibhters over Bouganville. IIRC the crew was awarded 2 MOH 9 DSC and 8 PH.
I enjoyed that also, Swede Vejtasa. He later transferred to the fighters. Just shows you what a good pilot who knows his aircraft can do against an agile aircraft but dumb group of pilots. BTW, Vejtasa was credited with three kills, that third one did not last.

[thevanderploegs]

Here I was thinking "Tree Contact" meant something about being to low.... I guess that's the kind of tree contact you don't want :)

I love this show also!

Gary

[old_pop2000]

Here I was thinking "Tree Contact" meant something about being to low.... I guess that's the kind of tree contact you don't want :)



Hi Gary:
No, you don't want a real tree contact, it will ruin your day. The term "combat tree" is a code word for the APX-81/APX-76 Iff Interrogator system. In the cockpit of an F4E it is located on the left side, above the RIOs left knee. There are idiot lights for slats, gear etc. above it. Some D model cockpit diagrams show a blank panel.

[john964]

Here I was thinking "Tree Contact" meant something about being to low.... I guess that's the kind of tree contact you don't want :)

I love this show also!

GaryThere is a story about a Maj. 'Pappy' Gunn who commanded a B-25 squadron in the 5AF who was famous for getting 'too' low. It was from his chief mecanic who was complaining to the wing commander.

IIRC the story goes somthing like this;
Sir, I got a problem with Maj. Gunn.
And what sort of problem does the major have Sargent Major.
Well Sir its like this, I didn't mined banging dents out of the leading edge when he got to low strafing ships and knocked off a few attennes, and I didn't mined yanking palm fronds out of the engine when he decided to prune a few trees, But I draw the line at banging dents out of the tail skid when he decides to take up farming.

[thevanderploegs]

...But I draw the line at banging dents out of the tail skid when he decides to take up farming.

LOL. Hadn't heard that one. Talk about plowing the road! :eek:

Gary

[old_pop2000]

LOL. Hadn't heard that one. Talk about plowing the road! :eek:

Gary

I had heard about Gunn and he was a talented pilot. However, let's return to reality. That is dangerous to go that low, possibly risking the rest of his crew and his valuable skills. I don't mean to put cold water on a funny story.

[john964]

I had heard about Gunn and he was a talented pilot. However, let's return to reality. That is dangerous to go that low, possibly risking the rest of his crew and his valuable skills. I don't mean to put cold water on a funny story.Gunn was a very talented pilot he came up with a number of inovations. IIRC his sqadron was the one that came up with skip-bombing and B-25C-1 strafer.

[old_pop2000]

Gunn was a very talented pilot he came up with a number of inovations. IIRC his sqadron was the one that came up with skip-bombing and B-25C-1 strafer.

Gunn was innovative, he had operated an airlines in the area, pre-war.

[old_pop2000]

I got my Dogfights DVDs today. Four DVD's per season plus a fifth DVD and a bonus. I haven't looked at it yet, but I will probably be watching it most of the weekend.

[old_pop2000]

I watched the first episode about Migs vs F-86A in Korea. Interesting that while the Migs had a higher ceiling, higher acceleration and higher climb rate, they also had some nasty habits. Habits like stalling uncontrollably and then entering a bad spin, from which recovery was problematic. They were slower than the F-86As at low altitude and did not roll well. The F-86A had a roll rate of 180 deg/sec, whereas the Migs was 120 degrees/sec in all speed ranges. With the better engines, less flexible wings and much better controllability in maneuvering, in point of fact, the average pilot in an F-86A was much safer and had a better advantage in a turning battle. The Migs fought in the vertical, boom and zoom. That is not what we have been led to believe, but that is exactly what happened. But like Yeager stated after besting his boss twice in a Mig-15, it's the pilot in the cockpit, not the plane.

He was so right.;)

[old_pop2000]

Well, I splurged on three more series:

The Crusades
The Barbarians

and...... The World At War. I got them all at half price, brand new. I have more stuff to watch. All I want now, is Beowulf. Love the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZuLeM-u8zI&feature=related

[Ed Rotondaro]

I got my Dogfights DVDs today. Four DVD's per season plus a fifth DVD and a bonus. I haven't looked at it yet, but I will probably be watching it most of the weekend.


Dennis:

There are five seasons of Dogfights? Didn't know that!

[Ed Rotondaro]

I watched the first episode about Migs vs F-86A in Korea. Interesting that while the Migs had a higher ceiling, higher acceleration and higher climb rate, they also had some nasty habits. Habits like stalling uncontrollably and then entering a bad spin, from which recovery was problematic. They were slower than the F-86As at low altitude and did not roll well. The F-86A had a roll rate of 180 deg/sec, whereas the Migs was 120 degrees/sec in all speed ranges. With the better engines, less flexible wings and much better controllability in maneuvering, in point of fact, the average pilot in an F-86A was much safer and had a better advantage in a turning battle. The Migs fought in the vertical, boom and zoom. That is not what we have been led to believe, but that is exactly what happened. But like Yeager stated after besting his boss twice in a Mig-15, it's the pilot in the cockpit, not the plane.

He was so right.;)

Dennis:

I may be misquoting here, but I believe it was General Adolph Galland who said:

"Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart can bring a pilot victory, no matter how sophisticated his aircraft".

He should know, he survived WWII when pilots with his skills were dying every day.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

There are five seasons of Dogfights? Didn't know that!

Ed:
There are only two seasons, but five DVD's. I hope I didn't deceive you, it wasn't on purpose?

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I may be misquoting here, but I believe it was General Adolph Galland who said:

"Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart can bring a pilot victory, no matter how sophisticated his aircraft".

He should know, he survived WWII when pilots with his skills were dying every day.

That's close enough, and it was General Adolf Galland.


Only the spirit of attack borne in a brave heart will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Dennis:

I may be misquoting here, but I believe it was General Adolph Galland who said:

"Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart can bring a pilot victory, no matter how sophisticated his aircraft".

He should know, he survived WWII when pilots with his skills were dying every day.

Hi Ed,

During the Battle of Britain, Goering visited the front. When he asked Galland what he could give them to help win, Galland told him Spitfires. Good thing there wasn't a Russian Front then. : )

[JMS]

They just recently, in the last few days, had that episode. In all honesty, those two Spad pilots were lucky they were up against a dumb Mig pilot. He should have accelerated, pulled back on the stick climbed and then reversed his climb and dove on those two Spads and made toast out of them.

In the episodes I have watched, and this is my opinion, there seems to be quite a difference in training between hunter and prey, with those shot down usually down quite lame moves to try to turn the tables and/or growing desperate and trying dumb things at very low level that end up dumping their energy and setting themselves up to be shot down.

[old_pop2000]

In the episodes I have watched, and this is my opinion, there seems to be quite a difference in training between hunter and prey, with those shot down usually down quite lame moves to try to turn the tables and/or growing desperate and trying dumb things at very low level that end up dumping their energy and setting themselves up to be shot down.

Hi JMS:

The apparent difference is doctrine, because most maneuvers are universal in combat flying. Every pilot learns in secondary flying school about loops, chandelles, immelmanns, barrel rolls, skids, aileron reversals. In advanced flying school and combat training, you begin to apply those maneuvers to situations that are presented to you. This is when maneuvers such as the vertical rolling scissors, horizontal scissors, lag and lead pursuit are taught in defensive and offensive training. most maneuvers are really the application of energy-maneuverability and understanding the capability of your aircraft. In all combat, you are either a victim or a victor, depends on how you view it. The greatest combat flyers always believed that they were invincible and in any situation, could out fly the opponent. But many died, because they forgot their own dictums. Richtofen died because he forgot about the concept of the wingman and because he flew too low chasing Lt. Wop May and Snowy Evans put a .303 in him.

I once talked to Randy Cunningham and asked him if thought he would lose against the NVA pilot in his famous dogfight. Typical fighter pilot answer, no, he never considered it. He said frankly, it was never a question of will I win, but how am I going to do it. He knew that if he went vertical enough, he would beat the NVA pilot. He understood that the Mig would eventually have to roll out of the climb and head for home. He knew that when he did that, he was dead. The last ditch maneuver to chop the throttle, was just instinct. You can't teach that. Robin Olds had it, David McCampbell, and others always had it.

It's interesting that John Boyd had to come along and define energy-maneuverability and develop charts, every great fighter pilot knew about the principle, but it was never codified.

Sorry, didn't mean to rattle on.

[JMS]

Hi JMS:

The apparent difference is doctrine, because most maneuvers are universal in combat flying. Every pilot learns in secondary flying school about loops, chandelles, immelmanns, barrel rolls, skids, aileron reversals. In advanced flying school and combat training, you begin to apply those maneuvers to situations that are presented to you. This is when maneuvers such as the vertical rolling scissors, horizontal scissors, lag and lead pursuit are taught in defensive and offensive training. most maneuvers are really the application of energy-maneuverability and understanding the capability of your aircraft. In all combat, you are either a victim or a victor, depends on how you view it. The greatest combat flyers always believed that they were invincible and in any situation, could out fly the opponent. But many died, because they forgot their own dictums. Richtofen died because he forgot about the concept of the wingman and because he flew too low chasing Lt. Wop May and Snowy Evans put a .303 in him.

I once talked to Randy Cunningham and asked him if thought he would lose against the NVA pilot in his famous dogfight. Typical fighter pilot answer, no, he never considered it. He said frankly, it was never a question of will I win, but how am I going to do it. He knew that if he went vertical enough, he would beat the NVA pilot. He understood that the Mig would eventually have to roll out of the climb and head for home. He knew that when he did that, he was dead. The last ditch maneuver to chop the throttle, was just instinct. You can't teach that. Robin Olds had it, David McCampbell, and others always had it.

It's interesting that John Boyd had to come along and define energy-maneuverability and develop charts, every great fighter pilot knew about the principle, but it was never codified.

Sorry, didn't mean to rattle on.

You are more than encouraged to rattle on. That's a perspective that I haven't thought about, that aces have it into them irrespective of training, but also shows the revolution in training that happened in the USAF/USN after Vietnam, where this principles were codified, training adapted and realistic exercises implemented at the same time improved hardware was developed which solved much of the ergonomic problems of the 100 series fighters. In contrast, the Soviets kept on with outdated tactics and inflexible formations.

[old_pop2000]

You are more than encouraged to rattle on. That's a perspective that I haven't thought about, that aces have it into them irrespective of training, but also shows the revolution in training that happened in the USAF/USN after Vietnam, where this principles were codified, training adapted and realistic exercises implemented at the same time improved hardware was developed which solved much of the ergonomic problems of the 100 series fighters. In contrast, the Soviets kept on with outdated tactics and inflexible formations.

Hi JMS:
You might live to regret encouraging me.:p

One of most important hardware revolutions was the move from vacuum tubes, albeit very small ones, to semiconductors, to large integrated circuits to VLSI circuits. This greatly improved the overall capability of systems especially the fire control radars, inertial navigation systems and ECM systems, but more importantly, reliability. Engine technology, specifically the move to turbofan engines and digital fuel management systems increased thrust but improved fuel management to save fuel and increase range.

In tactics, the F8 community had maintained the tradition of ACM. There were plenty of WWII and Korean War vets, who could retrain and perpetuate the tactics of ACM. The Naval Fighter Weapons school came from the F-8 community. The F-8 tactics had to be adapted to the heavier F-4. The issue of the ROE is somewhat bogus, the division of the North into Route packages helped the issue of USAF packages accidently engaging Navy Alpha strikes. The real problem was the total unreliability of the Sparrow missile due to poor testing in the states and the climatic environment. When we went to the all digital version using solid state and improved the LAU-7A missile launcher, air to air kills improved with the missile. The Navy emphasised the use of the Sidewinder. One factor was the addition of SEAM or sidewinder extended acquisition mode. Anyway, I maybe boring you with detail.

As to what Boyd did. He took math and physics, and developed charts for individual aircraft showing the optimal flight envelope. You could do this for opponent aircraft and match the envelopes, to illustrate and teach which tactics could keep you in your best flight envelope. It also helped designers by showing what areas to concentrate on, to design an aircraft with a wider flight envelope. This is how Boyd helped to design the F-15. He urged pilots to develop and use these charts to understand their tactics against specific aircraft.

Don't think for a minute that the Russian's did not gain from Vietnam, they certainly did. The Mig-29 and Su-27 were a direct result of lessons learned from that war, especially the electronic war. That maybe Vietnam's greatest contribution, the electronic war against ground radars, missiles and guns versus incoming packages. The QRC-160 was an example, the use of airborne early warning systems and controllers like Red Crown, and of course, the famous Wild Weasels. I wouldn't look at Vietnam as a return to previous ages in air warfare, but a leap forward into the next century of air warfare.

[old_pop2000]

I was watching one of my Dogfight programs. This one was the contest between the Hellcat and the A6M2. The first fight was between Lt. Robert Duncan flying off of the new Yorktown on a raid against Wake Island. In one dogfight against a Japanese ace, the ace decided to use an old tactic of going vertical. The pilot was Warrant Officer Toshiyuki Sueda. He had used this tactic because the F4F could not climb and would stall into a flat spin out of control. Sueda would roll over the top, and dive on the hapless F4F and shoot him down. Duncan did not find out until years later who the "rookie" pilot was. He just thought this guy was crazy. This same maneuver against an aircaft that could outclimb and out turn the Zero at high speed is a bad idea as Sueda found out. As he reached the apogee of the climb and was preparing to roll over and dive, all he now sees is Duncan's Hellcat, still climbing at full speed, his six .50 Cal M2 Brownings blazing. Sueda did not survive to make the mistake again. The F6F had a 2000 HP supercharged R2800 engine. That was 1000 hp more than the F4F.

Like Dirty Harry would say " a man's got to know his limitations". ;):p

[keschofield]

I was watching one of my Dogfight programs. This one was the contest between the Hellcat and the A6M2. The first fight was between Lt. Robert Duncan flying off of the new Yorktown on a raid against Wake Island. In one dogfight against a Japanese ace, the ace decided to use an old tactic of going vertical. The pilot was Warrant Officer Toshiyuki Sueda. He had used this tactic because the F4F could not climb and would stall into a flat spin out of control. Sueda would roll over the top, and dive on the hapless F4F and shoot him down. Duncan did not find out until years later who the "rookie" pilot was. He just thought this guy was crazy. This same maneuver against an aircaft that could outclimb and out turn the Zero at high speed is a bad idea as Sueda found out. As he reached the apogee of the climb and was preparing to roll over and dive, all he now sees is Duncan's Hellcat, still climbing at full speed, his six .50 Cal M2 Brownings blazing. Sueda did not survive to make the mistake again. The F6F had a 2000 HP supercharged R2800 engine. That was 1000 hp more than the F4F and was lighter overall.

Like Dirty Harry would say " a man's got to know his limitations". ;):p

I remember that episode. Very satisfying story. Six "ma deuces" can shred a Zero almost as fast as if it was put into a giant mix master!.

[old_pop2000]

I remember that episode. Very satisfying story. Six "ma deuces" can shred a Zero almost as fast as if it was put into a giant mix master!.

One of the men in that show, McWhorter, passed away in 2008. I am glad they are getting information from these men.

[keschofield]

I was only a toddler when my great grandfather died in 1957. But I wish my grandfather, dad, or uncle had interviewed him further. He must have had great stories to tell. He served in WW1 and his father served in the Civil War. He was apparantly a real character. I only remember him very dimly as a very old man. Oh to have been born earlier and convince him to tell his and his father's stories.:(

[old_pop2000]

I was only a toddler when my great grandfather died in 1957. But I wish my grandfather, dad, or uncle had interviewed him further. He must have had great stories to tell. He served in WW1 and his father served in the Civil War. He was apparantly a real character. I only remember him very dimly as a very old man. Oh to have been born earlier and convince him to tell his and his father's stories.:(

It would have been nice to have had that conversation recorded someway. I tried to learn as much as possible from my dad about the war.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I was watching one of my Dogfight programs. This one was the contest between the Hellcat and the A6M2. The first fight was between Lt. Robert Duncan flying off of the new Yorktown on a raid against Wake Island. In one dogfight against a Japanese ace, the ace decided to use an old tactic of going vertical. The pilot was Warrant Officer Toshiyuki Sueda. He had used this tactic because the F4F could not climb and would stall into a flat spin out of control. Sueda would roll over the top, and dive on the hapless F4F and shoot him down. Duncan did not find out until years later who the "rookie" pilot was. He just thought this guy was crazy. This same maneuver against an aircaft that could outclimb and out turn the Zero at high speed is a bad idea as Sueda found out. As he reached the apogee of the climb and was preparing to roll over and dive, all he now sees is Duncan's Hellcat, still climbing at full speed, his six .50 Cal M2 Brownings blazing. Sueda did not survive to make the mistake again. The F6F had a 2000 HP supercharged R2800 engine. That was 1000 hp more than the F4F.

Like Dirty Harry would say " a man's got to know his limitations". ;):p

Dennis:

I have read that the Grumman fighters could actually outmaneuver the Zero at high speed and high altitude since the Zero's controls stiffened up. Is this true?

[Ed Rotondaro]

I remember that episode. Very satisfying story. Six "ma deuces" can shred a Zero almost as fast as if it was put into a giant mix master!.

Kurt:

Heck without armor if one of those big .50cal rounds hits the pilot its game over.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I was only a toddler when my great grandfather died in 1957. But I wish my grandfather, dad, or uncle had interviewed him further. He must have had great stories to tell. He served in WW1 and his father served in the Civil War. He was apparantly a real character. I only remember him very dimly as a very old man. Oh to have been born earlier and convince him to tell his and his father's stories.:(

Kurt:

The history we lose everyday is sad.

[old_pop2000]

Dennis:

I have read that the Grumman fighters could actually outmaneuver the Zero at high speed and high altitude since the Zero's controls stiffened up. Is this true?

Yes, above about 250 kts, the aileron control stiffened, above 300 knots and you couldn't roll the aircraft. At 150 kts, the roll rate was 4.9 secs. At 300 kts it was over 21.9 secs. Doesn't sound like much, but in a dogfight that is like almost forever.

The F6F rollrate at 150 knots was about 6.6 sec, but at 300 knots it was 4.9. At 400, it was 5.1 sec. Remember that the first maneuver during a turn, is a roll. The longer it takes to roll, the slower the turn will be. However, in truth, by 1943, no one really got into turning duels with the Zero. It was boom and Zoom all the way. If you were jumped, split S and dive away. Again, the split S starts with a roll.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

I saw an episode on "Dogfights" I had not seen before. The episode covered three dogfights between F-4s from the USS Midway and North Vietnamese MIGS. Evidently Midway F-4s shot down the first and the last MIGs of the conflict. I know "top Gun" got a lot of heat for some of the tactics used, but from the show:

1. A pair of F-4s turn into two pair of MIGS. Each F-4 launches a single sidewinder at each pair. Both hit and the explosions knock down the target and his wingman. Two missiles, four planes shot down.

2. In two of the engagements, an F-4 deployed it's speed brake to let a pursuing MIG overshoot while in one case, an F-4 pilot pushed his stick down with hard rudder and caused his plane to tumble in mid air allowing a MIG on his 6 to overshoot.

Great epsiode.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Guys,

I saw an episode on "Dogfights" I had not seen before. The episode covered three dogfights between F-4s from the USS Midway and North Vietnamese MIGS. Evidently Midway F-4s shot down the first and the last MIGs of the conflict. I know "top Gun" got a lot of heat for some of the tactics used, but from the show:

1. A pair of F-4s turn into two pair of MIGS. Each F-4 launches a single sidewinder at each pair. Both hit and the explosions knock down the target and his wingman. Two missiles, four planes shot down.

2. In two of the engagements, an F-4 deployed it's speed brake to let a pursuing MIG overshoot while in one case, an F-4 pilot pushed his stick down with hard rudder and caused his plane to tumble in mid air allowing a MIG on his 6 to overshoot.

Great epsiode.

　
Hi Mike:
Just a few "extra" bits they might not have told you about the first engagement. The time was 1030 hours. It was blue flight of six F-4B in three elements. They had been on station for 30 minutes. Aircraft had 3 x AIM-7D, 2 x AIM-9B, 600 gal centerline tank, IFF not on, grey and white paint jobs. Mig-17s had two wing tanks, no missiles, silver color with wing markings. Ceiling was at 17,000 ft. with tops below 30,000 ft. .8 to .9 cover. Visibility unlimited. Speed 375 to 400 kts CAS with 7000 lbs of fuel. Blue 1 had sixty combat missions in A-1 in Korea and two Sparrow firings with 400 hrs in F-4's. Blue 1 commented that they needed IFF interrogation capability. The centerline tank cannot be jettisoned above 550 kts. During the encounter, Blue section accelerated to about that speed, so they fought that engagment with the tanks attached. The point is made that you can't dump the tanks everytime you have a radar contact. He also commented that the switchology of getting the sparrow ready needs to be automatic during high stress periods instead of two switches thrown at short intervals.

The radar at the initial contact was on the 50 mile scale and the bogies were detected at 30-35 miles. BTW, bingo fuel in this situation was 5800 lbs.


Watch it again - http://www.fancast.com/tv/Dogfights/97966/1609744186/MiG-Killers-of-The-Midway/videos - Sorry for the 14 seconds of advertisment.

　

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks. Regarding the Sparrow, there was a summary of Navy MIG kills with 33 or so by Sidewinder and only 8 by Sparrow mentioned at the end of the show.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks. Regarding the Sparrow, there was a summary of Navy MIG kills with 33 or so by Sidewinder and only 8 by Sparrow mentioned at the end of the show.

The USAF used the AIM-7D in the initial Rolling Thunder operation but it had some major problems with reliability due to moisture, min range etc. The Navy focused on the AIM-9B and got much better results although it had its own problems. Eventually, in 1969, the USAF began to field the AIM-7E which had a better min range, improved reliability but in fact, it wasn't until the all solid-state, VLSI version that the missile became the staple. That was after Vietnam though. Radar's had to improve also with track-while-Scan and look down, shoot down. The F4C had a single target track system, as soon as you acquired the target, the radar antenna stopped the three bar scan and began it's tracking. During that time, there was no search function available and any violent maneuver broke lock.

[Mike Malanaphy]

The USAF used the AIM-7D in the initial Rolling Thunder operation but it had some major problems with reliability due to moisture, min range etc. The Navy focused on the AIM-9B and got much better results although it had its own problems. Eventually, in 1969, the USAF began to field the AIM-7E which had a better min range, improved reliability but in fact, it wasn't until the all solid-state, VLSI version that the missile became the staple. That was after Vietnam though. Radar's had to improve also with track-while-Scan and look down, shoot down. The F4C had a single target track system, as soon as you acquired the target, the radar antenna stopped the three bar scan and began it's tracking. During that time, there was no search function available and any violent maneuver broke lock.

Hi Dennis,

I was reading an article in the "Air Power Journal" about F-105 losses in Vietnam with 395 of the 833 produced lost in the war. 22 were lost to MIGS, but F-105s shot down 27.5 MIGs, all but 4 with their internal 20mm cannon. More gun kills than all others types of aircraft combined. I was intrigued to review US aircraft losses in Vietnam and saw 21 Navy RA-5Cs, 2 US Airforce F-102s and 4 F-106s lost in the air with several others destroyed by mortars or rockets on the ground. The upshot of the article was that the F-105 was ill suited for it's task over the North, but bad tactics such as predictable routes and attack schedules assisted the North Vietnamese in shooting them down. In addition, designed for deep nuclear strike missions, the airplane's redundant hydraulic lines were close enough to the primaries to be vulnerable to damage from ground fire. Even so, it's hard to see what other tactical bomber the USAF had to commit to the conflict.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

I was reading an article in the "Air Power Journal" about F-105 losses in Vietnam with 395 of the 833 produced lost in the war. 22 were lost to MIGS, but F-105s shot down 27.5 MIGs, all but 4 with their internal 20mm cannon. More gun kills than all others types of aircraft combined. I was intrigued to review US aircraft losses in Vietnam and saw 21 Navy RA-5Cs, 2 US Airforce F-102s and 4 F-106s lost in the air with several others destroyed by mortars or rockets on the ground. The upshot of the article was that the F-105 was ill suited for it's task over the North, but bad tactics such as predictable routes and attack schedules assisted the North Vietnamese in shooting them down. In addition, designed for deep nuclear strike missions, the airplane's redundant hydraulic lines were close enough to the primaries to be vulnerable to damage from ground fire. Even so, it's hard to see what other tactical bomber the USAF had to commit to the conflict.

Hi Mike:
The "lead Sled" was just coming to its production end, when Vietnam began to ramp up. The USAF did not want to use the B-52s for tactical bombing, so they decided to move TFW to Thailand, without telling anyone, and use them. The Thud had some real problems like a lack of a redundant hydraulic system which was never fixed. With the internal bomb bay configured to carry fuel tanks, she had a good range. The MERs and TERs could be hung on the wings and centerline to give her a good payload. Here is a good site for you to look at.

http://www.burrusspta.org/thud.html

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Mike:
The "lead Sled" was just coming to its production end, when Vietnam began to ramp up. The USAF did not want to use the B-52s for tactical bombing, so they decided to move TFW to Thailand, without telling anyone, and use them. The Thud had some real problems like a lack of a redundant hydraulic system which was never fixed. With the internal bomb bay configured to carry fuel tanks, she had a good range. The MERs and TERs could be hung on the wings and centerline to give her a good payload. Here is a good site for you to look at.

http://www.burrusspta.org/thud.html

Thanks Dennis,

Obviously a labor of love. I remembering reading somewhere a back handed compliment fo Republic built aircraft...."if someone built a runway around the world, Republic could build an aricraft that woulg need every inch of it".

[old_pop2000]

Thanks Dennis,

Obviously a labor of love. I remembering reading somewhere a back handed compliment fo Republic built aircraft...."if someone built a runway around the world, Republic could build an aricraft that woulg need every inch of it".

Republic always build sturdy aircraft that were heavy, had big engines and used every bit of runway that they were given.... and a little bit more. USAF was always dumping more ordnance onto the F-15 and new electronics like the QRC-160.