War Movies.... How close to realism are they?

[old_pop2000]

Another interesting discussion on past war movies and how accurately they have depicted combat. Let's be a little analytical about how an operation, war or battle has been depicted versus how the actual event took place. Same with theoretical discussions about wars that might have taken place such as the NATO versus the Soviet scenario.

[Fleet Command CC]

I have always thought that Tora Tora Tora, was accurate and a great film. :)

[old_pop2000]

I would agree, that without the current animated techniques, it was the best attempt.

[keschofield]

Three veterans of D-day used to go to my church. At lunch one day I was able to get them talking (two of the three are very reluctant to speak of their war experiences). Two of them were enlisted (sergeants) and one was an officer (captain). One engineer, two infantry.

When the conversation got around to movies, these gentlemen who didn't agree on much, were unanimous that the D-day scene from Saving Private Ryan was close to their memory of reality as they have seen. They thought the plot of the movie was ridiculous but were amazed at the accuracy of the portrayal of the invasion scenes. All three of them were adamant that it lacked only the pervasive smell of blood, human waste, and cordite.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Three veterans of D-day used to go to my church. At lunch one day I was able to get them talking (two of the three are very reluctant to speak of their war experiences). Two of them were enlisted (sergeants) and one was an officer (captain). One engineer, two infantry.

When the conversation got around to movies, these gentlemen who didn't agree on much, were unanimous that the D-day scene from Saving Private Ryan was close to their memory of reality as they have seen. They thought the plot of the movie was ridiculous but were amazed at the accuracy of the portrayal of the invasion scenes. All three of them were adamant that it lacked only the pervasive smell of blood, human waste, and cordite.


Kurt:

More reasons to be glad we were not there. My uncle is an infantry vet who landed three days after D-Day and he is very wary about what he will say. He does mention being cold, wet, tired, hungry, sick and scared and I believe him.

[Fleet Command CC]

I would agree, that without the current animated techniques, it was the best attempt.

It would be great if they could remake the Tora Tora Tora with today computer graphic. :D

[old_pop2000]

It would be great if they could remake the Tora Tora Tora with today computer graphic. :D
Well, there are so many more subjects, incidents and stories from past wars, maybe we should let another generation write another history of Pearl Harbor. I just watched "Letters From Iwo Jima" without commercial interruption. I thought that the subject was very interesting and the movie well made. I would really like to see the Japanese movie about the Yamato and its final sortie.

[john964]

Three veterans of D-day used to go to my church. At lunch one day I was able to get them talking (two of the three are very reluctant to speak of their war experiences). Two of them were enlisted (sergeants) and one was an officer (captain). One engineer, two infantry.

When the conversation got around to movies, these gentlemen who didn't agree on much, were unanimous that the D-day scene from Saving Private Ryan was close to their memory of reality as they have seen. They thought the plot of the movie was ridiculous but were amazed at the accuracy of the portrayal of the invasion scenes. All three of them were adamant that it lacked only the pervasive smell of blood, human waste, and cordite.


I talked with a freind of the family who was at Utah Beach, He said Saving Private Ryan was as close to the real thing as he has ever seen, short of a combat cameraman wading ashore to film the actuale invasion.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I talked with a freind of the family who was at Utah Beach, He said Saving Private Ryan was as close to the real thing as he has ever seen, short of a combat cameraman wading ashore to film the actuale invasion.

John:

The History Channel re-ran "Band of Brothers" last weekend and I got to see most of it. Very well made and hard hitting. The entire section on the Battle of the Bulge had the look and feel of what it would have been like to fight in the cold, snow and constant threat of death.

[tony_glazebrook]

I would agree, that without the current animated techniques, it was the best attempt.

Dennis - this Q is a bit off topic but you will probabbly know and I am interested - was the late delivery to Cordell Hull of the japanese message, after Pearl Harbor hostilities. deliberate, or a genuine SNAFU? I have read the latter, but I wonder.

[clacton2]

I have always thought that Tora Tora Tora, was accurate and a great film. :)

Hi,
I always thought "Paths of Glory" was very real, and a fair indication of what was happening on the Western Front in WWI. Kirk Douglas was great in it too.
Jon;)

[asnrobert]

I always thought Battle of Britain was pretty accurate.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi,
I always thought "Paths of Glory" was very real, and a fair indication of what was happening on the Western Front in WWI. Kirk Douglas was great in it too.
Jon;)

Hi Clacton,

Paths of Glory ois one of my favorite films. "We were soldiers once" by Mel Gibson makes you feel right in the center of things.

[old_pop2000]

It was a general SNAFU on the part of the embassy decoders. Our magic decoding machines actually decoded the message faster than the embassy. I can research for more specific information later. It was really just a timing problem, it is hard to time something of this nature.

[clacton2]

Hi Clacton,

Paths of Glory ois one of my favorite films. "We were soldiers once" by Mel Gibson makes you feel right in the center of things.

Hi Mike,
I always thought it would be great to remake it in colour, but I wonder whether it might lose some of the atmosphere?
Jon:confused:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Dennis - this Q is a bit off topic but you will probabbly know and I am interested - was the late delivery to Cordell Hull of the japanese message, after Pearl Harbor hostilities. deliberate, or a genuine SNAFU? I have read the latter, but I wonder.

Tony:

A combination of Japanese obsession with cleverness and bad timing. It took the Japanese embasssy so long to decode the message to break off diplomatic relations with the US that by the time that they did, Cordell Hull was already dealing with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japan tried to be clever and paid the price.

[john964]

Tony:

A combination of Japanese obsession with cleverness and bad timing. It took the Japanese embasssy so long to decode the message to break off diplomatic relations with the US that by the time that they did, Cordell Hull was already dealing with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japan tried to be clever and paid the price.

Japan did nearly the same thing to start the Russian-Japanes War.

[john964]

Three veterans of D-day used to go to my church. At lunch one day I was able to get them talking (two of the three are very reluctant to speak of their war experiences). Two of them were enlisted (sergeants) and one was an officer (captain). One engineer, two infantry.

When the conversation got around to movies, these gentlemen who didn't agree on much, were unanimous that the D-day scene from Saving Private Ryan was close to their memory of reality as they have seen. They thought the plot of the movie was ridiculous but were amazed at the accuracy of the portrayal of the invasion scenes. All three of them were adamant that it lacked only the pervasive smell of blood, human waste, and cordite.
IIRC the story behind Saving Private Ryan did actualy happen, There was no 'rescue mission' but one man did lose 3 brothers on the same day as the invasion one in Italy one in the South Pacific and one on Omaha Beach, He went in on Utah Beach. The one lost in the SP came out of a POW camp at the end of the war. Not many know this but when Jeuneu was sunk besides the Sullivan Brothers there was the 4 Rodgers Brothers who were also lost.

[old_pop2000]

The movie was taken from the true life story of Fritz Niland and the Niland brothers. One brother was thought to be lost in Burma, and Fritz was located by a Chaplain and removed from combat. The other lost brother was alive and survived the war in a prison camp in Burma. There were four Niland Brothers of New York. The chaplain was Father Francis Sampson. The movie was a "what if " scenario predecated on the idea that Sampson could not locate Niland, so would the army have done.

[tony_glazebrook]

Tony:

A combination of Japanese obsession with cleverness and bad timing. It took the Japanese embasssy so long to decode the message to break off diplomatic relations with the US that by the time that they did, Cordell Hull was already dealing with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japan tried to be clever and paid the price.

Ed (and Dennis) - I know about the time to decode. What I was wondering - perhaps this shows my paranoid nature - was whether Japan may not have DELIBERATELY sent such a long message, knowing that the decoders would have this problem. I have no evidence for this, but you don't have to be a genius to work out that it is a brilliant way to deliver a message too late whilst being able to claim you didn't intend it. I am damn sure that the Jaoanese high command was easily clever enough to have thought about it...

[old_pop2000]

I think we can take the sequence of events on face value. The Japanese 14 part message to Hull was a reply to his ultimatum of 26 November. They were not suggesting military action, simply a termination of negotiations. However, any person reading the message could tell, what the intent was.


The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations. I believe that this was just a matter of poor timing and incredibly bad luck

[tony_glazebrook]

I think we can take the sequence of events on face value. The Japanese 14 part message to Hull was a reply to his ultimatum of 26 November. They were not suggesting military action, simply a termination of negotiations. However, any person reading the message could tell, what the intent was.

I believe that this was just a matter of poor timing and incredibly bad luck


Dennis - surely you know by now not to take anything on face value?...

I am not suggesting a whacky conspiracy theory, or the equivalent of an alien abduction here. Think about it just a bit. It makes perfect sense toi me that Japan, having decided war was inevitable, might arrange the timing of a long messga in the way they did. We occidentals have much to learn from the subtle arts of oriental diplomacy...

[old_pop2000]

Dennis - surely you know by now not to take anything on face value?...

I am not suggesting a whacky conspiracy theory, or the equivalent of an alien abduction here. Think about it just a bit. It makes perfect sense toi me that Japan, having decided war was inevitable, might arrange the timing of a long messga in the way they did. We occidentals have much to learn from the subtle arts of oriental diplomacy...

First, let me assure you that after having lived through the Kennedy assassination, Vietnam War and Watergate, I don't take anything at face value. Sixty one years of age makes you a jaded person, trust me.

Early on the afternoon of the 4th of December, a liaison conference was convened to discuss the delivery date of the final note. Tojo and others, wanted the message to be a declaration of war, however, the cabinet and the Naval General Staff decided on a simple termination of negotiations. Both would suffice as a final message but the latter left some wiggling room in case Hull relented and continued the discussions. It was discussed that the best time to deliver the final note was at 12:30, December 7th, Washington time.

The next day, December 5th, Vice Admiral Ito visited Togo at the Foreign Ministry and said that the notification should be at 1:00, not 12:30. Togo asked why and how much time would there be between the notification and the attack. He was never given the information, for operational security. From this, it should be evident of some compartimentalization of the whole act of declaring war and executing the attack.

On the afternoon of the 5th, the final draft of the notification to Hull along with the general instructions to the Japanese embassy was turned over to the Foreign Ministry's cable section. They were to send the cable so that it would arrive at 0800 or 8:00 am on December 6th. The first thirteen parts of the notifications would be sent in English to prevent mistranslation. The final part, the part explaining the breaking of diplomatic relations would not arrive until 4 or 5 am on December 7th.

Communications between Tokyo and Washington usually never took longer than one hour. Let me point out that this was the first time, the Japanese had used local time instead of Tokyo time on operations and diplomatic messages.

The fourteenth part of the message had arrived and was being typed. As they were typing the first thirteen parts and the final fourteenth, two correction messages arrived changing a single word and announcing that a single sentence had been dropped in transmission. These occurrances caused the typist to have to retype the whole page, more delays. In the process of hurrying, the typist made more mistakes. Neither were good typists as the regular staff was not allowed to see this message, so only code room staff was allowed to type the message. As we know, the message was delivered late and history is what it is.

Now, for conspiracy theorists, this is not concrete evidence. In fact, no evidence would convince conspiracy theorist. So be it. So, as hard as it may seem to believe, this was just a cluster F... on the part of the Japanese diplomatic corps.

Source: Chapter 9 Part 3, "Rising Sun: Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland.

[tony_glazebrook]

First, let me assure you that after having lived through the Kennedy assassination, Vietnam War and Watergate, I don't take anything at face value. Sixty one years of age makes you a jaded person, trust me.

Early on the afternoon of the 4th of December, a liaison conference was convened to discuss the delivery date of the final note. Tojo and others, wanted the message to be a declaration of war, however, the cabinet and the Naval General Staff decided on a simple termination of negotiations. Both would suffice as a final message but the latter left some wiggling room in case Hull relented and continued the discussions. It was discussed that the best time to deliver the final note was at 12:30, December 7th, Washington time.

The next day, December 5th, Vice Admiral Ito visited Togo at the Foreign Ministry and said that the notification should be at 1:00, not 12:30. Togo asked why and how much time would there be between the notification and the attack. He was never given the information, for operational security. From this, it should be evident of some compartimentalization of the whole act of declaring war and executing the attack.

On the afternoon of the 5th, the final draft of the notification to Hull along with the general instructions to the Japanese embassy was turned over to the Foreign Ministry's cable section. They were to send the cable so that it would arrive at 0800 or 8:00 am on December 6th. The first thirteen parts of the notifications would be sent in English to prevent mistranslation. The final part, the part explaining the breaking of diplomatic relations would not arrive until 4 or 5 am on December 7th.

Communications between Tokyo and Washington usually never took longer than one hour. Let me point out that this was the first time, the Japanese had used local time instead of Tokyo time on operations and diplomatic messages.

The fourteenth part of the message had arrived and was being typed. As they were typing the first thirteen parts and the final fourteenth, two correction messages arrived changing a single word and announcing that a single sentence had been dropped in transmission. These occurrances caused the typist to have to retype the whole page, more delays. In the process of hurrying, the typist made more mistakes. Neither were good typists as the regular staff was not allowed to see this message, so only code room staff was allowed to type the message. As we know, the message was delivered late and history is what it is.

Now, for conspiracy theorists, this is not concrete evidence. In fact, no evidence would convince conspiracy theorist. So be it. So, as hard as it may seem to believe, this was just a cluster F... on the part of the Japanese diplomatic corps.

Source: Chapter 9 Part 3, "Rising Sun: Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland.

Dennis - thanks for the detailed info good sir. Cheers mate.

[Ed Rotondaro]

First, let me assure you that after having lived through the Kennedy assassination, Vietnam War and Watergate, I don't take anything at face value. Sixty one years of age makes you a jaded person, trust me.

Early on the afternoon of the 4th of December, a liaison conference was convened to discuss the delivery date of the final note. Tojo and others, wanted the message to be a declaration of war, however, the cabinet and the Naval General Staff decided on a simple termination of negotiations. Both would suffice as a final message but the latter left some wiggling room in case Hull relented and continued the discussions. It was discussed that the best time to deliver the final note was at 12:30, December 7th, Washington time.

The next day, December 5th, Vice Admiral Ito visited Togo at the Foreign Ministry and said that the notification should be at 1:00, not 12:30. Togo asked why and how much time would there be between the notification and the attack. He was never given the information, for operational security. From this, it should be evident of some compartimentalization of the whole act of declaring war and executing the attack.

On the afternoon of the 5th, the final draft of the notification to Hull along with the general instructions to the Japanese embassy was turned over to the Foreign Ministry's cable section. They were to send the cable so that it would arrive at 0800 or 8:00 am on December 6th. The first thirteen parts of the notifications would be sent in English to prevent mistranslation. The final part, the part explaining the breaking of diplomatic relations would not arrive until 4 or 5 am on December 7th.

Communications between Tokyo and Washington usually never took longer than one hour. Let me point out that this was the first time, the Japanese had used local time instead of Tokyo time on operations and diplomatic messages.

The fourteenth part of the message had arrived and was being typed. As they were typing the first thirteen parts and the final fourteenth, two correction messages arrived changing a single word and announcing that a single sentence had been dropped in transmission. These occurrances caused the typist to have to retype the whole page, more delays. In the process of hurrying, the typist made more mistakes. Neither were good typists as the regular staff was not allowed to see this message, so only code room staff was allowed to type the message. As we know, the message was delivered late and history is what it is.

Now, for conspiracy theorists, this is not concrete evidence. In fact, no evidence would convince conspiracy theorist. So be it. So, as hard as it may seem to believe, this was just a cluster F... on the part of the Japanese diplomatic corps.

Source: Chapter 9 Part 3, "Rising Sun: Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland.

Dennis:

I agree completely. Prados covers these events in his book "Combined Fleet Decoded" and comes to essentially the same conclusion.

[Ed Rotondaro]

The movie was taken from the true life story of Fritz Niland and the Niland brothers. One brother was thought to be lost in Burma, and Fritz was located by a Chaplain and removed from combat. The other lost brother was alive and survived the war in a prison camp in Burma. There were four Niland Brothers of New York. The chaplain was Father Francis Sampson. The movie was a "what if " scenario predecated on the idea that Sampson could not locate Niland, so would the army have done.


Dennis:

The story is recounted in the book "Band of Brothers" by the late Stephen Ambrose. Fritz was in the 101st Airborne. His brother Bob was in the 82nd Airborne and had survived the drop on Salerno. He was killed on D-Day holding off a German attack. The other brother was a platoon leader in the 4th infantry and was killed at Utah beach. Talk about unlucky, Utah beach had very light casualties overall.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Guys,

I picked up a copy of "the Cruel Sea" on DVD. Jack Hawkins, Stanley Baker, and a very young Denholm Elliot in a story of a crovette in the Battle of the North Atlantic. Filmed on a corvette, you get a great feeling for what these men lived through including being sunk without warning. Excellent acting and script and getting to see the actual equipment, suck as ASDIC and depth charges, in use is very interesting. There is one scene where the captain warns the crew he is turning abeam of the sea and you get to see the flooding and chaos that ensues below deck. In line with the struggle, there is no stirring ending, just an acknowledgement of survival against the real enemy, the sea.

[old_pop2000]

Hi Guys,

I picked up a copy of "the Cruel Sea" on DVD. Jack Hawkins, Stanley Baker, and a very young Denholm Elliot in a story of a crovette in the Battle of the North Atlantic. Filmed on a corvette, you get a great feeling for what these men lived through including being sunk without warning. Excellent acting and script and getting to see the actual equipment, suck as ASDIC and depth charges, in use is very interesting. There is one scene where the captain warns the crew he is turning abeam of the sea and you get to see the flooding and chaos that ensues below deck. In line with the struggle, there is no stirring ending, just an acknowledgement of survival against the real enemy, the sea.


Hey Mike:
I've had that movie since it came out in VHS. I then bought it as a DVD. I have even ripped it and put it on my Ipod. Great movie. I love the part where Stanley Baker says "smokers, good oh" or something like that. I can never tell if it is snorkers or smokers.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hey Mike:
I've had that movie since it came out in VHS. I then bought it as a DVD. I have even ripped it and put it on my Ipod. Great movie. I love the part where Stanley Baker says "smokers, good oh" or something like that. I can never tell if it is snorkers or smokers.


Hi Dennis,

It can be difficult with those British accents, but it's "snorkers" (from the book). Keep checking for a Region 1 friendly "Battle of the River Plate" with Anthony Quayle but haven't found one yet. Can you imagine if they were showing the ever popular "trainsmash" (a stew with a lot of stewed tomatoes) being served?

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Dennis,

It can be difficult with those British accents, but it's "snorkers" (from the book). Keep checking for a Region 1 friendly "Battle of the River Plate" with Anthony Quayle. Can you imagine if they were showing the ever popular "trainsmash" being served?


Mike:

I'm afraid to ask, what is trainsmash?

[old_pop2000]

Hi Dennis,

It can be difficult with those British accents, but it's "snorkers" (from the book). Keep checking for a Region 1 friendly "Battle of the River Plate" with Anthony Quayle but haven't found one yet. Can you imagine if they were showing the ever popular "trainsmash" (a stew with a lot of stewed tomatoes) being served?


Mike:
I always assumed it was snorkers, because that's what my brain was telling me. I've seen Battle of the River Plate and might purchase it. Great movie. Also, there is the movie about a corvette made by Noel Coward. It was the sole movie he made. It is interesting also. I also want Dam Busters.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:

I'm afraid to ask, what is trainsmash?

Hi Ed,

I read that description in a book called "Heart of Oak". Evidently a meal often prepared on small ships in rough weather for ease of cooking. The high proportion of stewed tomaotes lea to it being tagged by the lower deck. Here is an example of a daily menu from HMS Worcester in 1940 as excerpted in "Churchill's Navy":

Breakfast: White bread, butter, and marmalade
Lunch: Meat, potatoes, cabbage or peas. Tinned fruit or polished rice or boiled pudding.
Tea: Tea, white bread, butter, and jam.
Supper: Sausage and chips or bacon and eggs.
Sunday Supper: Salad and tomatoes.

Supplies of fresh food were extremely limited and many older ships did not have much in the way of cold storage facilites. Much of it was tinned. Lavery comments that dehydrated food was available from America starting in 1942 and was found helpful on long voyages and in saving storage space. He comments that trials of dehydrated soups aboard submarines "were not considered successful". Even so, the RN seaman got better food than his rationed civilian counterparts though it's preparation aboard ship of left much to be desired.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:
I always assumed it was snorkers, because that's what my brain was telling me. I've seen Battle of the River Plate and might purchase it. Great movie. Also, there is the movie about a corvette made by Noel Coward. It was the sole movie he made. It is interesting also. I also want Dam Busters.


Hi Dennis,

Dambusters is readily available still with the politically incorrect name for Gibson's dog. Even without being remastered you can still enjoy the sound of those Merlin engines. I have the Noel Coward film "In Which We Serve" where he captains a J class destroyer loosely based upon Mountbatten. That is a great movie also especially the air attack scenes and her sinking. It shows how pitifully unpreparded RN destroyers were on early in the war.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

I read that description in a book called "Heart of Oak". Evidently a meal often prepared on small ships in rough weather for ease of cooking. The high proportion of stewed tomaotes lea to it being tagged by the lower deck. Here is an example of a daily menu from HMS Worcester in 1940 as excerpted in "Churchill's Navy":

Breakfast: White bread, butter, and marmalade
Lunch: Meat, potatoes, cabbage or peas. Tinned fruit or polished rice or boiled pudding.
Tea: Tea, white bread, butter, and jam.
Supper: Sausage and chips or bacon and eggs.
Sunday Supper: Salad and tomatoes.

Supplies of fresh food were extremely limited and many older ships did not have much in the way of cold storage facilites. Much of it was tinned. Lavery comments that dehydrated food was available from America starting in 1942 and was found helpful on long voyages and in saving storage space. He comments that trials of dehydrated soups aboard submarines "were not considered successful". Even so, the RN seaman got better food than his rationed civilian counterparts though it's preparation aboard ship of left much to be desired.

Mike:

Thanks. In the book "Battleship at War", the author points out that in the first few weeks, the food is generally pretty good, but near the end of the deployment the crews often lived on sandwhiches, pancakes or powdered eggs.

[john964]

Hi Ed,

I read that description in a book called "Heart of Oak". Evidently a meal often prepared on small ships in rough weather for ease of cooking. The high proportion of stewed tomaotes lea to it being tagged by the lower deck. Here is an example of a daily menu from HMS Worcester in 1940 as excerpted in "Churchill's Navy":

Breakfast: White bread, butter, and marmalade
Lunch: Meat, potatoes, cabbage or peas. Tinned fruit or polished rice or boiled pudding.
Tea: Tea, white bread, butter, and jam.
Supper: Sausage and chips or bacon and eggs.
Sunday Supper: Salad and tomatoes.

Supplies of fresh food were extremely limited and many older ships did not have much in the way of cold storage facilites. Much of it was tinned. Lavery comments that dehydrated food was available from America starting in 1942 and was found helpful on long voyages and in saving storage space. He comments that trials of dehydrated soups aboard submarines "were not considered successful". Even so, the RN seaman got better food than his rationed civilian counterparts though it's preparation aboard ship of left much to be desired.Even today the food on board ship can be lousy, this is mostly due to the large scale preperation of food for the crew. On a carrier the cooks will prepare upwards of 20,000+ meals daily. While on a Destroyer the cooks will prepare around 1100 meals a day. The rule is the smaller the ship the better the food.

[clacton2]

Hi Ed,

I read that description in a book called "Heart of Oak". Evidently a meal often prepared on small ships in rough weather for ease of cooking. The high proportion of stewed tomaotes lea to it being tagged by the lower deck. Here is an example of a daily menu from HMS Worcester in 1940 as excerpted in "Churchill's Navy":

Breakfast: White bread, butter, and marmalade
Lunch: Meat, potatoes, cabbage or peas. Tinned fruit or polished rice or boiled pudding.
Tea: Tea, white bread, butter, and jam.
Supper: Sausage and chips or bacon and eggs.
Sunday Supper: Salad and tomatoes.

Supplies of fresh food were extremely limited and many older ships did not have much in the way of cold storage facilites. Much of it was tinned. Lavery comments that dehydrated food was available from America starting in 1942 and was found helpful on long voyages and in saving storage space. He comments that trials of dehydrated soups aboard submarines "were not considered successful". Even so, the RN seaman got better food than his rationed civilian counterparts though it's preparation aboard ship of left much to be desired.

Hi All,
Some other notable RN culinary achievements are listed below:
1) Babies heads in potmess -- Tinned steak and kidney pudding.
2) Spithead pheasants -- Kippers.
3) Mad dog's vomit -- Mixed vegetable salad.
4) Yellow peril -- Smoked haddock.
5) Elephant's footprints -- Spam fritters.

Cheers
Jon :mad:

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi All,
Some other notable RN culinary achievements are listed below:
1) Babies heads in potmess -- Tinned steak and kidney pudding.
2) Spithead pheasants -- Kippers.
3) Mad dog's vomit -- Mixed vegetable salad.
4) Yellow peril -- Smoked haddock.
5) Elephant's footprints -- Spam fritters.

Cheers
Jon :mad:

Jon:

No wonder the Royal Navy kept the rum ration for so long. Ghastly sounding food Jon. How did you bear it?:eek:

[Mart]

It can be difficult with those British accents, but it's "snorkers" (from the book).

I think you'll find that the accent problem is on your side of the Atlantic. Hehe.

To a true English speaker, you don't need a book to recognise the word "snorker", spoken clearly, even though, most people wouldn't have the faintest idea what he was on about. I think seeing him stuffing his gob with sausages was probably the give-away! :D

But, a brilliant film. And good to see the snorker porker disappear PDQ. I think a whole film with him in it would be just too much. Instead, we had a film full of "decent chaps", and very fine they were too!

Joking aside, a it's a really great movie. Also a reminder of the bravery of the merchant marine in The Atlantic, and Arctic convoys, which has only been recently formally recognised, and the men's bravery celebrated.

Cheerio pip pip!

Martin :)

[clacton2]

Jon:

No wonder the Royal Navy kept the rum ration for so long. Ghastly sounding food Jon. How did you bear it?:eek:


Ed,
Years of practice and a certain amount of fatalism mixed with desperation. LOL

Jon:):)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed,
Years of practice and a certain amount of fatalism mixed with desperation. LOL

Jon:):)

Jon:

Well I certainly respect your dedication to duty no matter how unpleasant. I guess it proves if you're hungry enough you'll eat anything.;)

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi All,
Some other notable RN culinary achievements are listed below:
1) Babies heads in potmess -- Tinned steak and kidney pudding.
2) Spithead pheasants -- Kippers.
3) Mad dog's vomit -- Mixed vegetable salad.
4) Yellow peril -- Smoked haddock.
5) Elephant's footprints -- Spam fritters.

Cheers
Jon :mad:

Hi Jon,

Kinda makes "mystery meat" and "SOS" seem appetizing. : ) I have read that there was a lot of resistance to cafeteria messing when it was introduced in HMS Vanguard as individual messes could cook and flavor food to me the needs of that group. But it there is a lot of information regarding the how many RN personnel looked wiht envy at US habitablity on submarines and other warships. Brown makes a comparision between the UK built Rivers and the US made Colony class escorts. Same designs, but a world of difference in the execution. Amazing that a water fountain in the mess area was considered a luxury item by RN sailors.

[asnrobert]

When I toured the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic in Halifax two years ago, they had something called "red lead and cap tallies": stewed tomatoes and bacon that was frequently served on corvettes as it was nourishing and easy to make, but not popular with the crews.

[john964]

If the enlisted arn't bitchin' about anything and everything then somthing is very, very wrong.

[Ed Rotondaro]

If the enlisted arn't bitchin' about anything and everything then somthing is very, very wrong.

A good crew is one that gripes! Imagine Scott as your CO? The horror, the horror!:D

[clacton2]

Hi Jon,

Kinda makes "mystery meat" and "SOS" seem appetizing. : ) I have read that there was a lot of resistance to cafeteria messing when it was introduced in HMS Vanguard as individual messes could cook and flavor food to me the needs of that group. But it there is a lot of information regarding the how many RN personnel looked wiht envy at US habitablity on submarines and other warships. Brown makes a comparision between the UK built Rivers and the US made Colony class escorts. Same designs, but a world of difference in the execution. Amazing that a water fountain in the mess area was considered a luxury item by RN sailors.

Mike,
Quite right there was a lot of initial resistance to cafeteria style messing, but eventually people saw the benefits.
A source of wonderment to RN matelots were, as you say, water fountains and also ice cream machines, WOW what luxury!
Although U.S. sailors always liked to visit our ships for the alcohol we were allowed daily.
Unfortunately, no RN warship I ever either served on or knew of was built with crew contentment in mind, it was always a case of put the equipment in and fit the crew around it.
I never minded it, but others found lack of privacy, space and the normal little things that make life a joy, a bit much to handle. LOL

Jon:rolleyes:

[clacton2]

Jon:

Well I certainly respect your dedication to duty no matter how unpleasant. I guess it proves if you're hungry enough you'll eat anything.;)

Ed,
It actually sounds a lot worse that it was, generally I always found the food in the RN pretty good.

Jon:D

[Scott Chisholm]

With minimal manning initiatives, the USN recently experimented with pre-fabricated meals - airline food. I really don't know what came of it, but the thought of a six month deployment with the only food to look forward to being airline food would probably drive me insane.

Sunday Brunch on the CVN was my favorite meal.

[john964]

With minimal manning initiatives, the USN recently experimented with pre-fabricated meals - airline food. I really don't know what came of it, but the thought of a six month deployment with the only food to look forward to being airline food would probably drive me insane.

Sunday Brunch on the CVN was my favorite meal.Scott, It sounds to me more like frozen TV dinners or maybe MRE's (sound of violent retching).

[Mike Malanaphy]

With minimal manning initiatives, the USN recently experimented with pre-fabricated meals - airline food. I really don't know what came of it, but the thought of a six month deployment with the only food to look forward to being airline food would probably drive me insane.

Sunday Brunch on the CVN was my favorite meal.

Hi Scott,

The Army looked at that as well in the late 70's and early 80's. The concept was a trailer that was self contained and heated the meals prior to delivery to the front line. The idea has some merit. Finding good cooks is a tough job. In the field, they have to prepare good meals, maintian their vehicle and weapons as well as being trained to defend the perimeter. Quite a work load when your making three meals a day. From a mangagement perspective, it made sense in terms of manpower, sanitation, and man hours. But as a troop commander, good food in the field was a combat multiplier and it was fun to take all your slackers awaiting their chapter 5 discharges to the fields as KPs.

I spent a lot of time in the field and food is a very important morale issue. I had excellent cooks in my unit in Germany that produced great basic meals in the field even under horrific weather. A good, hot meal is rotten weather is a much necessary morale booster though I never figured out why barbeque chicken was always served when you were your dirrtiest and it was raining! : ) I also made sure that my cooks got recognized for major field ops with Army Commendation and Army achievement medals as well as glowing efficiency reports to get promoted. They were a great crew and it was always a joy to let them fire their .50 cal off of the ring mount on the deuce and a half. Talk about bloodthirsty.

We had a cook trailer that was a self contained kitchen with it's stoves built in. It was towed by their 2 1/2 ton truck which contained the rations. Generally, you had A rations which was fresh food, B rations which was mainly canned and dry, and C rations which were self contained issued meals with a long (gulp) shelf life. In training, we usually used A and a little B with perhaps Cs for lunch. In combat, it would have been mainly Cs and some Bs.

One of my lasting memories of CNNs coverage was them being showed the "long shelf life" burrito that bnatick Labs was developing. Look more at home in a cluster bomb!

[paladin5]

With minimal manning initiatives, the USN recently experimented with pre-fabricated meals - airline food. I really don't know what came of it, but the thought of a six month deployment with the only food to look forward to being airline food would probably drive me insane.

Sunday Brunch on the CVN was my favorite meal.


Even on paper that sounds like a horrible idea. :eek:

[Jittery]

I do a fair bit of bush walking and fishing in the sticks and the MRE's (go into the local Army Reserve Unit & buy them off the boys there :eek:) are 10x better than any of the expensive as commercial crap. For a 2 week trip with a few school mates a while ago we all packed our stuff and their dehydrated meals had SPAM or cardboard meat in them. The ones i got had real meat/chicken. It is a little bit dry but they put a lot of effort into making it so you have something that is edible at least, well in comparison to the other commercial stuff. Instead of 12 flavors/meals i also got to choose from 42 :D They have one that is like a group meal (12~ people) in a box. You don't need a oven just water and add it to a chemical heat pack or something, its about the size of 2 shoe box's but has about 12 individual meals in it and they actually taste pretty damn nice. A bit like the frozen meals form the supermarket in appearance but tastes a lot better.

[Mike Malanaphy]

I do a fair bit of bush walking and fishing in the sticks and the MRE's (go into the local Army Reserve Unit & buy them off the boys there :eek:) are 10x better than any of the expensive as commercial crap. For a 2 week trip with a few school mates a while ago we all packed our stuff and their dehydrated meals had SPAM or cardboard meat in them. The ones i got had real meat/chicken. It is a little bit dry but they put a lot of effort into making it so you have something that is edible at least, well in comparison to the other commercial stuff. Instead of 12 flavors/meals i also got to choose from 42 :D They have one that is like a group meal (12~ people) in a box. You don't need a oven just water and add it to a chemical heat pack or something, its about the size of 2 shoe box's but has about 12 individual meals in it and they actually taste pretty damn nice. A bit like the frozen meals form the supermarket in appearance but tastes a lot better.

Hi Jittery,

I left the service before MREs came into use, but I keep a couple of cases for our emergency kit at home. Might just have try try one. I understand they deleted the ever popular Ham and Lima beans in MREs. Most soldiers carried condiments, especially hot sauce to liven up C rations. The addition of the cooking element was a great idea especially when you don't have a vehicle handy or able to make a fire. I was reading a book about the British Chieftan tank the other day where one of the final troop trials is living closed up in the vehicle for 24 hours. The Chieftan was unheated but featured a cooking stove for the crew.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Jittery,

I left the service before MREs came into use, but I keep a couple of cases for our emergency kit at home. Might just have try try one. I understand they deleted the ever popular Ham and Lima beans in MREs. Most soldiers carried condiments, especially hot sauce to liven up C rations. The addition of the cooking element was a great idea especially when you don't have a vehicle handy or able to make a fire. I was reading a book about the British Chieftan tank the other day where one of the final troop trials is living closed up in the vehicle for 24 hours. The Chieftan was unheated but featured a cooking stove for the crew.

Mike:

I've read that tankers in the US army have heated up canned rations on the back of an Abrams tank since the engine generates so much heat. Apparently there is a trick to how long you leave the can on the radiator grill so that it doesn't explode.

[john964]

Mike:

I've read that tankers in the US army have heated up canned rations on the back of an Abrams tank since the engine generates so much heat. Apparently there is a trick to how long you leave the can on the radiator grill so that it doesn't explode.
Ed, They do the same with MRE's also exept the put them down the exaust pipe and idle the engine for 15-20 min and then step on the gas and the MRE's shoot strait up into the air, hot and ready to eat.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Ed, They do the same with MRE's also exept the put them down the exaust pipe and idle the engine for 15-20 min and then step on the gas and the MRE's shoot strait up into the air, hot and ready to eat.

John:

I don't even want to think about that LOL!;)

[Mike Malanaphy]

Ed, They do the same with MRE's also exept the put them down the exaust pipe and idle the engine for 15-20 min and then step on the gas and the MRE's shoot strait up into the air, hot and ready to eat.

Hi Guys,

I would imagine that an Abrams would heat those up quick. On the 60s, we'd open the grille doors open and set them on the heat shield over the engine. Mufflers on the 113 and exhaust manifolds on jeeps were good too. Vehicles put out a lot of heat so there are multiple techniques to warm up your rations.

[asnrobert]

I was reading a book about the British Chieftan tank the other day where one of the final troop trials is living closed up in the vehicle for 24 hours. The Chieftan was unheated but featured a cooking stove for the crew.

What would the crew do if they had to go to the bathroom while in the tank during that time?

[john964]

What would the crew do if they had to go to the bathroom while in the tank during that time?Piddle packs and plastic bags my guess.

[paladin5]

Piddle packs and plastic bags my guess.


That seems logical enough. :s