US Torpedoes in WWII

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi all:

Most members of these forums are familiar with the problems that the USN had with its torpedoes in the early years of WWII. It appears that the matter came to a head sometime in 1943 when Vice Admiral Charles Lockwood risking his career made sure that Admirals Nimitz and King were aware of it and did something to correct it. It seems that we see an improvement in the performance either in the summer or fall of 1943.

The two major problems with the Mark 13 and 14 torpedo were a faulty detonator (both contact and magnetic) and a tendency to not run at the depth they were set for.
My questions are twofold: Could existing torpedoes be retrofitted with what changes were made? And is there a timeline of when the changes occurred and how soon the fleet got the improved torpedoes?

Does anyone have any insights on this topic? Thanks.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi all:

Most members of these forums are familiar with the problems that the USN had with its torpedoes in the early years of WWII. It appears that the matter came to a head sometime in 1943 when Vice Admiral Charles Lockwood risking his career made sure that Admirals Nimitz and King were aware of it and did something to correct it. It seems that we see an improvement in the performance either in the summer or fall of 1943.

The two major problems with the Mark 13 and 14 torpedo were a faulty detonator (both contact and magnetic) and a tendency to not run at the depth they were set for.
My questions are twofold: Could existing torpedoes be retrofitted with what changes were made? And is there a timeline of when the changes occurred and how soon the fleet got the improved torpedoes?


Does anyone have any insights on this topic? Thanks.

Hi Ed,

Blair does a pretty good analysis in "Silent Victory" and places the primary blame on the Newport Torpedo factory. This government run operation was the the sole source of torpedoes till mid war. Because there had been inadequate real world testing, the exploder and depth problems were undiagnosed and reports from the field were intially discounted as they believed the torpedoes were not properly maintained or used at sea. I suspect that surface skippers had less opportunity to gather data in the midst of battle to document torpedo failures.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

Blair does a pretty good analysis in "Silent Victory" and places the primary blame on the Newport Torpedo factory. This government run operation was the the sole source of torpedoes till mid war. Because there had been inadequate real world testing, the exploder and depth problems were undiagnosed and reports from the field were intially discounted as they believed the torpedoes were not properly maintained or used at sea. I suspect that surface skippers had less opportunity to gather data in the midst of battle to document torpedo failures.


Hi Mike:

I have a two volume copy of that book, so I'll look it up. I knew they weren't adequately tested, but I was wondering about the details.

[asnrobert]

I recalled from reading Silent Victory (many, many moons ago) that existing torpedoes at Pearl had the firing pins replaced by ones made by the maintenance men there (ironically using metal from propellers of Japanese planes - it was just the right tensile strength- one sailor remarked that we had probably given them the metal in the first place, and now we were going to give it to them again).

[Campy]

As I recall, testing was on a tight budget. It consisted of firing at a target, and having the torpedo pass under it. The torpedo was then recovered for re-use. It was assumed the magnetic detonator would explode.


What was not found out in testing was that not only was the firing pin defective, the torpedo was running too deep for the magnetic device to work. Attempts to correct this by setting the torpedo for shallower depth resulted in the torpedo operating erratically.

Efforts to correct this ran into interference from a local congressman. It was a patronage plum for him, and he fought the creation of another torpedo facility elsewhere. I forget his name.

The air launched torpedo was too slow. Accounts by the Japanese at Midway have their ships practically outrunning them. They were also generally launched too far away.

Frank

[Ed Rotondaro]

As I recall, testing was on a tight budget. It consisted of firing at a target, and having the torpedo pass under it. The torpedo was then recovered for re-use. It was assumed the magnetic detonator would explode.


What was not found out in testing was that not only was the firing pin defective, the torpedo was running too deep for the magnetic device to work. Attempts to correct this by setting the torpedo for shallower depth resulted in the torpedo operating erratically.

Efforts to correct this ran into interference from a local congressman. It was a patronage plum for him, and he fought the creation of another torpedo facility elsewhere. I forget his name.

The air launched torpedo was too slow. Accounts by the Japanese at Midway have their ships practically outrunning them. They were also generally launched too far away.

Frank

Campy:

Thanks for more details. I believe they tested the torpedoes in Long Island Sound for easier recovery. Another problem with magnetic detonators that the German navy found out was that depending on what latitude you were at, the Earth's magnetic field affected the performance.

[john964]

Hi Ed,

Blair does a pretty good analysis in "Silent Victory" and places the primary blame on the Newport Torpedo factory. This government run operation was the the sole source of torpedoes till mid war. Because there had been inadequate real world testing, the exploder and depth problems were undiagnosed and reports from the field were intially discounted as they believed the torpedoes were not properly maintained or used at sea. I suspect that surface skippers had less opportunity to gather data in the midst of battle to document torpedo failures.Also the BurOrd was almost totaly discounting reports from the field passing it off as lack of agressivness and poor maintainence. It was not untill 2 incedences happend, the first was when a PCO who had been at the NTF as a JO witnessed the problems first hand. The second was when a sub made an attack with IIRC 4 torpedos against a naval tanker with its first salvo of the patrol. 3 of 4 torpedos missed, ran erraticly or was a dud, the 4th torpedo hit in the area of the props disabling the tanker, the sub could not surface to finsh it off with it deck gun as the tanker had manned it deck guns. The CO then lined his sub up for perfect torpedo shots at a range of 800-1000yds and proceded to fire the rest of his load except his last one which he brought back for examination all the other torpedos failed IIRC 6 were duds, 5 ran erratic and the rest ran under the ship.

[asnrobert]

Also the BurOrd was almost totaly discounting reports from the field passing it off as lack of agressivness and poor maintainence. It was not untill 2 incedences happend, the first was when a PCO who had been at the NTF as a JO witnessed the problems first hand. The second was when a sub made an attack with IIRC 4 torpedos against a naval tanker with its first salvo of the patrol. 3 of 4 torpedos missed, ran erraticly or was a dud, the 4th torpedo hit in the area of the props disabling the tanker, the sub could not surface to finsh it off with it deck gun as the tanker had manned it deck guns. The CO then lined his sub up for perfect torpedo shots at a range of 800-1000yds and proceded to fire the rest of his load except his last one which he brought back for examination all the other torpedos failed IIRC 6 were duds, 5 ran erratic and the rest ran under the ship.

IIRC, the sub in question was the Tinosa, and the target was a whale factory ship. When the Tinosa reached Pearl, they tested the torpedo by removing the explosive part of the warhead, and dropping the torpedo withe a crane on to a piece of steel on the ground (to represent a ship's hull. They found if the torpedo hit at a 90 degree angle (normally an ideal hit), the pin would jam, but that it would work properly if the torpedo hit at a glancing angle. I believe this was depicted in the John Wayne movie Operation Pacific.

[Campy]

Another problem with magnetic detonators that the German navy found out was that depending on what latitude you were at, the Earth's magnetic field affected the performance.

The British also found this out. The first Swordfish attack on the "Bismarck" resulted in the torpedoes exploding on contact with the water. Fortunate, because they had actually attacked one of the British cruisers tailing her. The next time, they went with contact detonators. The rest is history. Frank

[Ed Rotondaro]

The British also found this out. The first Swordfish attack on the "Bismarck" resulted in the torpedoes exploding on contact with the water. Fortunate, because they had actually attacked one of the British cruisers tailing her. The next time, they went with contact detonators. The rest is history. Frank

Campy:

I didn't realize that the British also had magnetic detonators. Did any nation get them to work properly during the war? I know they worked for mines.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Hi Mike:

I have a two volume copy of that book, so I'll look it up. I knew they weren't adequately tested, but I was wondering about the details.

Hi Ed,

The Germans had numerous problems with their torpedoes as well, theirs suffere from deep running and teh magnetic exploder. The story is very similar to our struggle. Lack of adequate testing and an unwillingness of the producers to listen to the users. Prien and several other top skippers were incensed. Blair covers this in depth in his U Boat history. I believe the admiral in charge of the torpedo bureau was actually coutrtmartialed. German torpedoes had problems well into 1941. With the exception of the British magnetic exploder, British, Italian, and Japanese torpedoes worked well from the start.

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi Ed,

The Germans had numerous problems with their torpedoes as well, theirs suffere from deep running and teh magnetic exploder. The story is very similar to our struggle. Lack of adequate testing and an unwillingness of the producers to listen to the users. Prien and several other top skippers were incensed. Blair covers this in depth in his U Boat history. I believe the admiral in charge of the torpedo bureau was actually coutrtmartialed. German torpedoes had problems well into 1941. With the exception of the British magnetic exploder, British, Italian, and Japanese torpedoes worked well from the start.

Mike:

I actually had a better understanding of the German torpedo problems as I had done more reading on them. Apparently Prien had either the Nelson or Rodney in his sights in 1940. On board were Churchill and Dudley Pound. he fired a spread of three, none of which worked. Now imagine if they did and Churchill is killed (he is not Prime Minister yet).

I'm not too surprised at the IJN's torpedoes working, they tested them hard and spent money like crazy. And from what I've read, the Italian torpedoes were copies of the British, so they were already ahead of the curve so to speak.

[Kyle Holgate]

At least some of the problems with the German "fish" were due to the changes in the Earth magnetic field resulting from moving further north. There were other issues as well, but the magnetic trigger screwed them up a bit.

[Mike Malanaphy]

Mike:

I actually had a better understanding of the German torpedo problems as I had done more reading on them. Apparently Prien had either the Nelson or Rodney in his sights in 1940. On board were Churchill and Dudley Pound. he fired a spread of three, none of which worked. Now imagine if they did and Churchill is killed (he is not Prime Minister yet).

I'm not too surprised at the IJN's torpedoes working, they tested them hard and spent money like crazy. And from what I've read, the Italian torpedoes were copies of the British, so they were already ahead of the curve so to speak.

Hi Ed,

Prematures saved Ark Royal just before Courageous was sunk in September 1939 and cost the Germans U39 in the counterattack. The loss of Churchill that early in the war could have been very siginificant in terms of how the British might have felt about fighting for an unconditional victory. Would his replacement bonded as close to FDR as he did.

[Smiffy]

The British also found this out. The first Swordfish attack on the "Bismarck" resulted in the torpedoes exploding on contact with the water. Fortunate, because they had actually attacked one of the British cruisers tailing her. The next time, they went with contact detonators. The rest is history. Frank


Campy:

I didn't realize that the British also had magnetic detonators. Did any nation get them to work properly during the war? I know they worked for mines.


The British had a working magnetic pistol by the end of WW1. It wasn't very good, but it was a start. By the outbreak of WW2 the Royal Navy was using a dual contact/magnetic pistol, still temperamental but it did work more times than not, especially at Taranto. Unfortunately, several examples were captured by Germany, along with H/M Submarine "Seal", off Denmark in 1940. This allowed the Germans to combine British technology with their own and led to the vast improvement in German magnetic pistols.
The "Ark Royal" strike on HMS "Sheffield" (whoops, should have been "Bismarck") was the first service use of an improved pistol in aerial torpedoes, the premature explosions were caused by the shock of entry in the open sea. The British had long since solved the latitude effect problem, and, in any case, the attack took place in latitudes comparable to British home waters.

[Spook046]

A bit late for this topic, but I would consider the following from Frederick J Milford, "The Great Torpedo Scandal" as required reading for this subject matter.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm

[Ed Rotondaro]

A bit late for this topic, but I would consider the following from Frederick J Milford, "The Great Torpedo Scandal" as required reading for this subject matter.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm

Thanks Ed, I printed it out and will read it during lunch.

[Ed Rotondaro]

A bit late for this topic, but I would consider the following from Frederick J Milford, "The Great Torpedo Scandal" as required reading for this subject matter.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm

Ed:

I went and printed out all the articles in the series since the one you sent was so interesting. Thanks again.