In Search for HMAS Sydney wreck, DKM Komoran found

[Spook046]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23654623/

(ROD McGUIRK, Associated Press Writer)

CANBERRA, Australia - A search for an Australian navy battle cruiser lost in 1941 has led to the wreck of the German raider that sank it, the prime minister said Sunday. Both the HMAS Sydney and the German vessel, the DKM Kormoran, sank after a battle off Australia's western coast on Nov. 19, 1941 during World War II.

None of the 645 men aboard the Sydney survived. But 317 of the Kormoran's 397 crew rowed to the Australian coast in life boats and were taken prisoner. The 9,500-ton Kormoran had been disguised as a Dutch merchant ship when it opened fire on the Sydney.

"Finding the Kormoran is one big step forward (to finding the Sydney)," said Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

The wreck was found Saturday 500 miles north of the Western Australia state capital Perth, he said.

The government-funded $3.9 million search for the Sydney began two weeks ago and is headed by U.S. shipwreck hunter David Mearns.

Mearns was involved in finding the wrecks of the British battle cruiser the HMS Hood and the DKM Bismarck, the German battle ship that sank her in the North Atlantic in 1941.
The Sydney weighed in at 6,600 metric tons (7,300 U.S. tons), making it the largest vessel from any country to be lost with no survivors during the war.

The fate of the ship and its crew has remained an enduring mystery, though a parliament inquiry into the tragedy in 1999 accepted accounts by Kormoran survivors that they last saw the ship in flames and heading toward Perth.

It was not immediately clear whether there are plans to raise the Sydney if it is found.

[Spook046]

Oh, and yes, the header's a typo, I should have had "Kormoran" instead of "Komoran".

[Spook046]

And a couple of relevant Wiki entries for added reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_naval_activity_in_Australian_waters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_between_HMAS_Sydney_and_HSK_Kormoran

[clacton2]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23654623/

(ROD McGUIRK, Associated Press Writer)

CANBERRA, Australia - A search for an Australian navy battle cruiser lost in 1941 has led to the wreck of the German raider that sank it, the prime minister said Sunday. Both the HMAS Sydney and the German vessel, the DKM Kormoran, sank after a battle off Australia's western coast on Nov. 19, 1941 during World War II.

None of the 645 men aboard the Sydney survived. But 317 of the Kormoran's 397 crew rowed to the Australian coast in life boats and were taken prisoner. The 9,500-ton Kormoran had been disguised as a Dutch merchant ship when it opened fire on the Sydney.

"Finding the Kormoran is one big step forward (to finding the Sydney)," said Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

The wreck was found Saturday 500 miles north of the Western Australia state capital Perth, he said.

The government-funded $3.9 million search for the Sydney began two weeks ago and is headed by U.S. shipwreck hunter David Mearns.

Mearns was involved in finding the wrecks of the British battle cruiser the HMS Hood and the DKM Bismarck, the German battle ship that sank her in the North Atlantic in 1941.
The Sydney weighed in at 6,600 metric tons (7,300 U.S. tons), making it the largest vessel from any country to be lost with no survivors during the war.

The fate of the ship and its crew has remained an enduring mystery, though a parliament inquiry into the tragedy in 1999 accepted accounts by Kormoran survivors that they last saw the ship in flames and heading toward Perth.

It was not immediately clear whether there are plans to raise the Sydney if it is found.


Hi,
Interesting article, hope they find the Wreck site of the Sydney, it is one of the enduring mysteries of WWII.
I suspect it would also give closure to the families of those involved as well as being a fitting tribute to some brave men.
Jon

[Ed Rotondaro]

Oh, and yes, the header's a typo, I should have had "Kormoran" instead of "Komoran".


Spook:

That plus the are calling the Sydney a battle cruiser instead of a light cruiser.

[john964]

According to new information HMAS Sydney may have been found 14 miles from the wreck of the DKM Kormoran.

[Rick]

Spook:

That plus the are calling the Sydney a battle cruiser instead of a light cruiser.


Aww comeon Ed its the press ;) It was a cruiser and it was built for battle so its a battle cruiser. lol

[clacton2]

According to new information HMAS Sydney may have been found 14 miles from the wreck of the DKM Kormoran.

Hi,
Yes, it has been confirmed this morning that the wreck has definitely been found 10 nautical miles from the wreck of the Kormoran. Heres the link to the story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/17/2190983.htm

Apparently they are sending an ROV to look at it. Sydney is almost intact but in very deep water. Heres the link:

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23384538-5006301,00.html

Cheers
Jon

[Ed Rotondaro]

Aww comeon Ed its the press ;) It was a cruiser and it was built for battle so its a battle cruiser. lol

Rick:

I agree, but we're dedicated to accuracy around here;)

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi,
Yes, it has been confirmed this morning that the wreck has definitely been found 10 nautical miles from the wreck of the Kormoran. Heres the link to the story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/17/2190983.htm

Apparently they are sending an ROV to look at it. Sydney is almost intact but in very deep water. Heres the link:

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23384538-5006301,00.html

Cheers
Jon

Jon:

I raise my pint of Cooper's lager to the Australian Navy and their government for finally finding the Sydney. My guess is the ship must have exploded if there were no survivors. Or else capsized. Maybe the ROV can determine that? May they rest in peace.

[john964]

Hi,
Yes, it has been confirmed this morning that the wreck has definitely been found 10 nautical miles from the wreck of the Kormoran. Heres the link to the story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/17/2190983.htm

Apparently they are sending an ROV to look at it. Sydney is almost intact but in very deep water. Heres the link:

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23384538-5006301,00.html

Cheers
JonNot that deep according to new reports she rests in about 8100ft of water not like Bismark at 17000ft or Yorktown at 15000 or Hood at 20000ft unlike PoW and Repulse at about 300ft

[Spook046]

Spook:

That plus the are calling the Sydney a battle cruiser instead of a light cruiser.

No, actually, the name typo on Kormoran was my goof, so I have to share blame with the news media; one on each of us. :o

[Spook046]

Anyway, yes, I just read the news today also about the Sydney's discovery. My congratulations to those accomplishing the find, and hope quick speed to also getting the historic shipwrecks protection orders in place.

[Smiffy]

Sydney would automatically be classed as a Commonweath War Grave, I believe that Australia still supports the Commonweath War Graves Commission. Kormoran, however,may need additional protection.

[john964]

Sydney would automatically be classed as a Commonweath War Grave, I believe that Australia still supports the Commonweath War Graves Commission. Kormoran, however,may need additional protection.Wouldn't Kormoran have protection as a German war grave she was after all a german ship.

[Smiffy]

I honestly don't know. I used to deal with the Commonwealth War Graves people a lot so I know that any wreck of a naval ship from a Commonwealth country becomes a war grave and special permission is required to dive on it. Unquestionably "Kormoran" deserves the same protection, but I have no idea of the procedures. We still get the odd dead German aircrew turning up in English fields and rivers, they are always either repatriated or buried here with full honours, depending on the wishes of surviving relatives.

[Ed Rotondaro]

I honestly don't know. I used to deal with the Commonwealth War Graves people a lot so I know that any wreck of a naval ship from a Commonwealth country becomes a war grave and special permission is required to dive on it. Unquestionably "Kormoran" deserves the same protection, but I have no idea of the procedures. We still get the odd dead German aircrew turning up in English fields and rivers, they are always either repatriated or buried here with full honours, depending on the wishes of surviving relatives.

Hi:

Does unexploded shells or bombs show up like they still do in France?

[john964]

Hi:

Does unexploded shells or bombs show up like they still do in France?

Ed, I may not be from England but UXB show up on average 1-3 times a year usually during constuction of something or other. If you ever get to the Verdun battlefield tourist are warned not to leave the marked paths. From what I have read there are about 20-25 incedents in Europe a year. It also happens in the US on occasion IIRC there was a incedent in Florida were a couple of kids found som hand grenades on a beach. This took place within the last year.

[Citadelvette]

Near my hometown a few years ago some folks found a crate full of hand grenades in a site where a truck had driven off a bridge while it was carrying ordance to Ft. Cambell during WWII. I think most people would be surprised at how much ordance is lying around America, oh wait most people would be surprised at the amounts in Europe!;)

[old_pop2000]

We have an area of San Diego that used to be Camp Elliott during WWII. Eventually it became a residential area. Two kids were killed by unexploded ordnance. They still have signs out and warn everyone that if you find something, don't touch.

[john964]

We have an area of San Diego that used to be Camp Elliott during WWII. Eventually it became a residential area. Two kids were killed by unexploded ordnance. They still have signs out and warn everyone that if you find something, don't touch.
IIRC about 20 years ago they discoverd a ammo mag in the back yard of a house in Penn, the mag still had ordance in it. What was really scary was it was leftover chem ord from WWI. The area had not been used since 1925 and a more thourgh search found 4 more ammo bunkers. The camp had been abandond in place and forgoten.

[Ed Rotondaro]

We have an area of San Diego that used to be Camp Elliott during WWII. Eventually it became a residential area. Two kids were killed by unexploded ordnance. They still have signs out and warn everyone that if you find something, don't touch.

Dennis:

Ths same is true of the Golan Heights. Visitors are told to stay on the marked trails because there is so much unexploded stuff in the ground.

[Smiffy]

Hi:

Does unexploded shells or bombs show up like they still do in France?

Quite frequently, but obviously the frequency is falling. Quite a few old mines get washed up on the coast or caught in some fisherman's nets. I used to live in Dover, which was in gun range of German batteries in France in WW2, as late as the 1980s they were finding one unexploded bomb or shell a week due to dredging operations in the harbour. My own dog once dug up an old A/T mine on the beach just South of Deal, not far from Dover.

[Kyle Holgate]

Quite frequently, but obviously the frequency is falling. Quite a few old mines get washed up on the coast or caught in some fisherman's nets. I used to live in Dover, which was in gun range of German batteries in France in WW2, as late as the 1980s they were finding one unexploded bomb or shell a week due to dredging operations in the harbour. My own dog once dug up an old A/T mine on the beach just South of Deal, not far from Dover.

Here boy, let's leave the nice mine alone boy... At least it's not something the dog could pick up and carry to you after you throw a stick or something. In my mind's eye I get quite the amusing image...:eek:

I feel just fine living where the most dangerous weapon I'm likely to accidently unearth is a native American spear head! No potential kaBOOm there.

[asnrobert]

back in 1980, PBS' Masterpiece Theatre had a series called Danger UXB. It was about this British team that disabled German UXBs (Unexploded Bombs) during the war. Alistair MacLean, the host explained how some members of the team were still engaged in disarming the occasional bomb that was found. In one episode where the team was learning how to disarm the German magnetic sea mines that they were dropping on land (and which could be set off by a bicycle),at the end Maclean was relating how years after the war, a golfer's ball had landed near a tree. The golfer pulled an iron from his club, and the tree promptly exploded. Fortunately, the man was unharmed, and he was given a mulligan. :D

[clacton2]

Here boy, let's leave the nice mine alone boy... At least it's not something the dog could pick up and carry to you after you throw a stick or something. In my mind's eye I get quite the amusing image...:eek:

I feel just fine living where the most dangerous weapon I'm likely to accidently unearth is a native American spear head! No potential kaBOOm there.

Hi,
Another place high on the list of sites with still dangerous ordance and land mines are the Falkland Islands.
In fact, one of the settlements local cemetery is still off limits to everyone ( can't remember which one now ), as it is surrounded by all manner of unexploded weaponry.
Jon:(

[Ed Rotondaro]

Hi,
Another place high on the list of sites with still dangerous ordance and land mines are the Falkland Islands.
In fact, one of the settlements local cemetery is still off limits to everyone ( can't remember which one now ), as it is surrounded by all manner of unexploded weaponry.
Jon:(

Jon:

One more reason to get rid of land mines.

[Smiffy]

Here boy, let's leave the nice mine alone boy... At least it's not something the dog could pick up and carry to you after you throw a stick or something. In my mind's eye I get quite the amusing image...:eek:

I feel just fine living where the most dangerous weapon I'm likely to accidently unearth is a native American spear head! No potential kaBOOm there.

Try living in Belgium. In 1917 the British dug under the German lines on Messines Ridge and and placed over 500 tons of explosives beneath them, in 21 separate mine chambers, prior to attacking the ridge. On the day of the attack they only blew 19 of the 21. The explosion was heard as far away as Dublin. Between then and the end of the war some fool managed to lose the plans, and they were unable to recover the two unexploded mines, each with 20-30 tons of ammonal still in place.
One exploded during a thunderstorm in 1957, only casualty was a cow. The last mine is still there, somewhere. I believe there is also a similar mine still under Vimy Ridge.

So getting back to the "Sydney" and Kormoran", do divers, diving on warship wrecks, take precautions because of possible unexploded and unstable ordnance?

In 1944 the SS "Richard Montgomery" an American Liberty Ship, sank after running aground in the Thames Estuary off Sheerness in Kent. Her cargo of 3000 tons of 250 pound GP bombs, property of the USAAF, is still aboard the wreck. There is, of course, an official exclusion zone. A friend of mine in the Coastguard tells me that they think it's probably safe by now. Just, "probably safe".

[john964]

Try living in Belgium. In 1917 the British dug under the German lines on Messines Ridge and and placed over 500 tons of explosives beneath them, in 21 separate mine chambers, prior to attacking the ridge. On the day of the attack they only blew 19 of the 21. The explosion was heard as far away as Dublin. Between then and the end of the war some fool managed to lose the plans, and they were unable to recover the two unexploded mines, each with 20-30 tons of ammonal still in place.
One exploded during a thunderstorm in 1957, only casualty was a cow. The last mine is still there, somewhere. I believe there is also a similar mine still under Vimy Ridge.

So getting back to the "Sydney" and Kormoran", do divers, diving on warship wrecks, take precautions because of possible unexploded and unstable ordnance?

In 1944 the SS "Richard Montgomery" an American Liberty Ship, sank after running aground in the Thames Estuary off Sheerness in Kent. Her cargo of 3000 tons of 250 pound GP bombs, property of the USAAF, is still aboard the wreck. There is, of course, an official exclusion zone. A friend of mine in the Coastguard tells me that they think it's probably safe by now. Just, "probably safe".
That kind of stuff happens all over IIRC It took the USN almost 50 years to declare USS Saratoga as safe. Her hanger had been filled with various types of ordenance to test the effects of radiation on them. Also IIRC several captured german ships were scuttelled with chemical weapons onboard just after the end of WWII.